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Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up

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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#81 » by FluLikeSymptoms » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:03 am

Spartan13 wrote:Its not like Wright is going all MJ on us, he is mostly shooting when hes wide open.


I'm sorry, but this argument makes me want to set myself on fire every time I hear it.

This is not directed at you, but rather the argument.

Wright is open for a reason.

Wright is open so that the talented players, the ones who fuel the offense we bet on to win every night, are not open.

Wright is open because his defender is helping on pick and rolls, our bread and butter- the play which makes Jose, Hedo and Bosh all look like all-stars. Or, he's two steps from Bosh on either the strong OR weak side, where Antoine would be "spreading the floor"- only his man has a foot in the paint, and continues to when the ball is inevitably forced around the perimeter to our Antoine.

We need to score to survive. When Wright gets the ball, and good coaches make sure he does, we usually don't score. Sure he'll hit a long, open jumper or two off the catch like any pro can. But he'll never hit 5 threes or anything, and he'll never force coaches to abandon their defensive strategy. Teams know he will miss far more than he makes over any significant stretch, and he will cough the ball up cleanly or off the rim when he tries to take the ball into the waiting defense. Even if he thinks twice and kicks the ball out after a look and a reset up top, how much clock is left?

This is really reminiscent of the Jamario hate on O, ignoring what he brings to the other end.


Jamario is a great guy to bring up. My rant above applied to him last year, only he'd jack it every time. You don't think teams are doing the same things with Wright in the lineup as with Moon? Don't Antoine's catches look familiar? Teams knew how to beat Jose and Bosh last year, and the same things are working this year when we don't use Hedo. At least Jamario occasionally rebounded and played help defense, the kind we didn't have- and it STILL wasn't worth having him out there most nights.

And I really am not ignoring what Antoine "brings" one the other end. He's a good choice to guard 5-10 SFs in the league for short runs, he'll make them work a bit and use his fouls when beaten. He'll guide them to their off hand or to the baseline, or maybe contest a shot well. But he's not stopping anybody(Thabo? Are you guys posting in the right thread?). If his man can't beat him, he passes to one of the other 3 or 4 favourable matchups against our other guys. Or, they just pick him off and create any matchup they want.

So, what happens when your meal-ticket offense hands the ball over early in the clock, your defense still sucks in the halfcourt and is un-athletic? You get crushed in transition, you get crushed in halfcourt, you tire, you foul, you lose focus and you end up on the wrong end of game-changing runs which our coach doesn't like to slow with timeouts.

And you F'ing lose!
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#82 » by Spartan13 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:15 am

thesciencedroppa wrote:
Spartan13 wrote:Its not like Wright is going all MJ on us, he is mostly shooting when hes wide open.


I'm sorry, but this argument makes me want to set myself on fire every time I hear it.

This is not directed at you, but rather the argument.

Wright is open for a reason.

Wright is open so that the talented players, the ones who fuel the offense we bet on to win every night, are not open.

Wright is open because his defender is helping on pick and rolls, our bread and butter- the play which makes Jose, Hedo and Bosh all look like all-stars. Or, he's two steps from Bosh on either the strong OR weak side, where Antoine would be "spreading the floor"- only his man has a foot in the paint, and continues to when the ball is inevitably forced around the perimeter to our Antoine.

We need to score to survive. When Wright gets the ball, and good coaches make sure he does, we usually don't score. Sure he'll hit a long, open jumper or two off the catch like any pro can. But he'll never hit 5 threes or anything, and he'll never force coaches to abandon their defensive strategy. Teams know he will miss far more than he makes over any significant stretch, and he will cough the ball up cleanly or off the rim when he tries to take the ball into the waiting defense. Even if he thinks twice and kicks the ball out after a look and a reset up top, how much clock is left?

This is really reminiscent of the Jamario hate on O, ignoring what he brings to the other end.


Jamario is a great guy to bring up. My rant above applied to him last year, only he'd jack it every time. You don't think teams are doing the same things with Wright in the lineup as with Moon? Don't Antoine's catches look familiar? Teams knew how to beat Jose and Bosh last year, and the same things are working this year when we don't use Hedo. At least Jamario occasionally rebounded and played help defense, the kind we didn't have- and it STILL wasn't worth having him out there most nights.

And I really am not ignoring what Antoine "brings" one the other end. He's a good choice to guard 5-10 SFs in the league for short runs, he'll make them work a bit and use his fouls when beaten. He'll guide them to their off hand or to the baseline, or maybe contest a shot well. But he's not stopping anybody(Thabo? Are you guys posting in the right thread?). If his man can't beat him, he passes to one of the other 3 or 4 favourable matchups against our other guys. Or, they just pick him off and create any matchup they want.

So, what happens when your meal-ticket offense hands the ball over early in the clock, your defense still sucks in the halfcourt and is un-athletic? You get crushed in transition, you get crushed in halfcourt, you tire, you foul, you lose focus and you end up on the wrong end of game-changing runs which our coach doesn't like to slow with timeouts.

And you F'ing lose!


LOL fair enough. I agree with your assessment on how to use Wright. The Charlotte game was a perfect example of how he can help us when healthy. However, I disagree with others that he shouldn't get any burn, is actually a bad defender cus of some BS stat, and won't get a contract next year.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#83 » by Latrell » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:13 am

If you're gonna start anyone over DeMar it should be Marco, not Wright.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#84 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:39 am

I agree on Demar needing to move the the second unit to help the team.

I disagree on wright, he has problems guarding the faster guards, and bigger guards. He also has the worst shot selection, and defenders cheat like mad on his shot, he would shrink the floor big time. He's a matchup defender, great for certain situations (like say Arenas), but sadly he's too slow or too small for morst guards hes going to see in the east. He's basicly a tweener.

Where as Beli would spread the floor better, be a major improvment on slashing, passing and shooting. While his D would be worse than wright, it would be a nice improvment on Demar. He would force who ever is covering him to burn major energy chasing him around on the defensive end, and thats as good as defending them...

Demar would also be more of a offensive focus on the second unit, rather than beeing looked off on the first unit.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright 

Post#85 » by breignchile » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:59 am

Schadenfreude wrote:Wright is an amazing specimen: he has the worst defensive rating on the team, the second-worst offensive rating behind Weems, and the worst (by far) PER of any player in the league earning comparable minutes. In short, he has been the worst player in the NBA by a good margin thus far. Why in **** should we be playing him more!?


Writers/posters need something to talk about. This is a perfect situation for DeMar. By playing against the opposing teams starters he is gaining a lot of experience. And if he gets exploited the coaching staff can substitute him with somebody else. I hope that we can see DeMar re-enter the game a bit more. It seems that he is really only seeing the court in the 1st and 3rd quarters. But I have no problem with the "take it easy" approach. While not acknowledging it publicly, management is getting him prepared for next season.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#86 » by ghuytro » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:31 pm

D-Wins-RingsIMO wrote:Thabo is also on the floor to make KD's life easier.


What a novel concept. Surround your best player with players to cover up their defensive weaknesses.

CB4 weaknesses - defense, lane intimidation

CB4's defensive counterparts - poor defenders, allow easy penetration and throw out a red carpet to the rim, inspire the equivalent amount of fear in Gerald Wallace as a box full of kittens

BC did a great job assembling talent this off-season - I really had high hopes.

But as much as I like chocolate and as much as I like steak, putting them in the same dish isn't going to taste good.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#87 » by sump » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:07 pm

ghuytro wrote:But as much as I like chocolate and as much as I like steak, putting them in the same dish isn't going to taste good.


What about happened a steak for dinner and chocolate for dessert?
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright 

Post#88 » by dacrusha » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:46 pm

MrBojangelz71 wrote:If Wright can somehow fathom that he isn't a scoring wing, that guys like Bosh, Hedo, AB and Jose can easily provide buckets, that all his purpose is to rebound, D up and add toughness, if he could get that then yes.
Funny, you watch tape of him starting in Dallas and he never took shots. He would fade off to the side and allow the scorers to score. Comes here and he figures that he now is relied upon for scoring. Funny to when you consider that we put up more points than Dallas did last year.


Funny, his usage% is exactly the same here as it was with Dallas last year.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright 

Post#89 » by The Letter V » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:02 pm

dacrusha wrote:
MrBojangelz71 wrote:If Wright can somehow fathom that he isn't a scoring wing, that guys like Bosh, Hedo, AB and Jose can easily provide buckets, that all his purpose is to rebound, D up and add toughness, if he could get that then yes.
Funny, you watch tape of him starting in Dallas and he never took shots. He would fade off to the side and allow the scorers to score. Comes here and he figures that he now is relied upon for scoring. Funny to when you consider that we put up more points than Dallas did last year.


Funny, his usage% is exactly the same here as it was with Dallas last year.

Also interestingly, his FGAs per game are down from 6.6 last year to 5.6 this year.
His 3-point FGAs are up from 2.3 per game last year to 2.6 this year.
He is also shooting the 3 better this year at 32.3% compared to 30.2% last year.
The only thing is that his FG% is down considerably from 41.5% last year, to 29.9% this year.

I guess this suggests that either Wright is simply missing his 2-point FGs, or forcing bad shots he didn't last year.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#90 » by dacrusha » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:26 pm

The point mostly missed in this thread is that Demar's skills would be better served coming off the bench as an energy guy/rebounding wing/2nd or 3rd scorer... not in the starting lineup where he has become completely buried behind the other 4 with virtually no role to play.

Let Wright and Derozan switch roles and we'll see Wright's shots go down and Derozan's confidence go up.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#91 » by JJWong17 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:29 pm

Wright is really bad at the SG spot though. His best defensive position is the SF spot. So what's the point?
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#92 » by Reignman » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:33 pm

ghuytro wrote:
D-Wins-RingsIMO wrote:Thabo is also on the floor to make KD's life easier.


What a novel concept. Surround your best player with players to cover up their defensive weaknesses.
CB4 weaknesses - defense, lane intimidation

CB4's defensive counterparts - poor defenders, allow easy penetration and throw out a red carpet to the rim, inspire the equivalent amount of fear in Gerald Wallace as a box full of kittens

BC did a great job assembling talent this off-season - I really had high hopes.

But as much as I like chocolate and as much as I like steak, putting them in the same dish isn't going to taste good.


The sad part is that at least half of this board doesn't get that concept, just read through that Bosh/Bargs thread for proof. I'm not even sure our management gets it either.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#93 » by BC4CB4 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:35 pm

dacrusha wrote:The point mostly missed in this thread is that Demar's skills would be better served coming off the bench as an energy guy/rebounding wing/2nd or 3rd scorer... not in the starting lineup where he has become completely buried behind the other 4 with virtually no role to play.

Let Wright and Derozan switch roles and we'll see Wright's shots go down and Derozan's confidence go up.

Exactly the point.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#94 » by Pchu » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:11 pm

I would like to see Weems in the role. He can create his shots better than Wright and I think he has some potential on defense.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#95 » by Alfred » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:46 pm

Scott Carefoot wrote:I don't know if Tim reads message boards, much less post in them. He only follows 3 people on Twitter: 2 of them work for ESPN and the other works for Yahoo. Apparently he doesn't consider any other Canadian basketball writers worth following. Say what you will about Doug Smith (and I have) but at least he considers Holly worth following (which she is).


That's quite the assumption!
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#96 » by heemer » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:57 pm

We've gone over this a dozen times and really nothing has changed.

Wright hasn't played himself into more time, let alone a starting spot. DeRozan has been inconsistent but hasn't been a huge problem and doesnt get that many minutes anyway. Marco has been our best 2 so far, gets by far the most minutes, plays in crunch time, and provides scoring from the bench for the 2nd unit.

Aside from not just having better players, whats the problem here?
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#97 » by Duffman100 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:01 pm

So who starts?

You need Marco off the bench for scoring.
Derozan isn't contributing enough.
Weems really isn't a viable option. You want Weems guarding Kobe, Vince, Wade?

Wright is the best option.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#98 » by 99 Problems » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:09 pm

What is Wright contributing that DeRozan isn't?

The best option is leaving DeRozan as starter..
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#99 » by Duffman100 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:24 pm

99 Problems wrote:What is Wright contributing that DeRozan isn't?

The best option is leaving DeRozan as starter..


Wright is a better defender, easily. What people see in Derozan's defense is beyond me.
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Re: Chisholm: Swap DeMar for Wright in starting line-up 

Post#100 » by ForeverTFC » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:31 pm

I understand everyone is going with their guy perspective here that Wright out there must be better than Derozan, but the numbers say otherwise. Off of 82games.com

Unit....................................................
Calderon-DeRozan-Turkoglu-Bargnani-Bosh OFF 1.16 DEF 1.09 +/- +19 8-5


Lets look at the alternatives
Calderon-Wright-Turkoglu-Bargnani-Bosh OFF 1.08 DEF 1.37 +/- -6 3-4

Put Wright in, instead of Derozan. Play worse offense (Wright emulating Lebron) AND worst defense.


Calderon-Jack-Turkoglu-Bargnani-Bosh OFF 1.32 DEF 1.37 +/- -5 3-6

Put Jack in, instead of Derozan. Offense picks up, but defense goes to hell.


Calderon-Belinelli-Turkoglu-Bargnani-Bosh OFF 1.33 DEF 1.13 +/- +16 5-1

Put in Beli, we win in differential. We still get worse on defense. Two more problems. one, the entire offense is jumpshots at this point. Two, who is going to score off the bench?


Demar right now is the best option out there. What is hurting us is Triano's "Creative" lineups. Let there be some chemistry, for crying out loud.

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