Building Around Bosh

Everstealth · Post #1 » by **Everstealth** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 3:40 am

Okay first I'd like to make it clear that Bosh is in fact a franchise player, his play, effort and production are all at that level.

What I'm wondering is: Why have we not followed the route as many other successful teams, building around one player and added others that compliment him.

I think B.C. is to blame for this because he has been ignorant and selfish (I know he's worked very hard to get us the team we have but he has never cashed in on oppurtunities that come by.

Bosh is not Dwight Howard, nor is he Dwyane Wade/Lebron/Kobe/Melo, he's just himself and has a unique playing style. What happens when we dont build around him? There are nights that bosh is 30/12 and raptors still loose, how is this possible?? Like even in blowouts Bosh has great numbers.

What I think Bosh needed from the start was:

A passing pointguard that can stay in front of his man and hit shots when he has open looks.
An agressive, slashing shooting guard that can get to the rim and draw defensive attention.
Hedo would fit in nicely at small forward in my opinion.
A defensive minded centre who has size and toughness, someone who can box out, rebound and finish under the rim/putback/garbage baskets.

Im satisfied with our bench.

I think that this would be the perfect team for Bosh, and I believe that if we'd built something like this from the get go then Bosh would consistantly be top 5 in the M.V.P. ranking and Raptors would be top 6 definitely.

sumsimdimgun · Post #2 » by **sumsimdimgun** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 3:58 am

dn't you think that those are the pieces that every team wants? lol. if they were available...

it's all about timing and market.

baba ghanooj · Post #3 » by **baba ghanooj** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:00 am

There are franchise guys that change the identity of the team and there are guys like Bosh..who may be an excellent player but but has his flaws. We needed to build a defensive team around him or bring in another all star. We haven't really done any of that in past years and im not really surprised at the results. We have like zero direction.

Kabookalu · Post #4 » by **Kabookalu** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:05 am

Basically...

PG: Mario Chalmers
SG: Gerald Wallace
SF: Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Chris Bosh
C: Brendan Haywood

Ask yourself is that team good enough to win the championship?

Raps in 4 · Post #5 » by **Raps in 4** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:08 am

Everstealth wrote:Bosh is not Dwight Howard, nor is he Dwyane Wade/Lebron/Kobe/Melo, he's just himself and has a unique playing style. What happens when we dont build around him? There are nights that bosh is 30/12 and raptors still loose, how is this possible??

Because he didn't play defence like the rest of the team?

I agree though that BC failed completely in building around Bosh, which leads me to believe that wasn't his goal.

Everstealth · Post #6 » by **Everstealth** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:15 am

PG: Mario Chalmers
SG: Gerald Wallace
SF: Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Chris Bosh
C: Brendan Haywood

You know when I was making this thread that lineup was somewhat what I was thinking about. I do think it would be quite a bit better than our current roster.

And as for "we wanted these peices but they didnt come by", we have a developing Bargnani playing really well, we can always trade him, we can trade Calderon for better peices, B.C. isn't trying to do that though.

UssjTrunks:
"Because he didn't play defence like the rest of the team?

I agree though that BC failed completely in building around Bosh, which leads me to believe that wasn't his goal."

Then he must have had bad goals because our team isn't doing as well as we'd like it to.

CreaM · Post #7 » by **CreaM** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:16 am

Choker wrote:Basically...

PG: Mario Chalmers
SG: Gerald Wallace
SF: Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Chris Bosh
C: Brendan Haywood

Ask yourself is that team good enough to win the championship?

Mario Chalmers is not starting material, talk less about starting PG.

BTW, I would take that team over the one we have any day. They play defense, hustle and while they might not be as efficient offensively, they would blow the current team we have out of the water.

BryceMaxJames · Post #8 » by **BryceMaxJames** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:17 am

Bosh cannot take over a game, he is not on Howards, Wades, Kobe, Melo and James level. The fact that he gets his numbers means nothing to me. I look at it like he is trying to prove that he is on the level of the above mentioned players by getting his own numbers. He is a good player, a good solid piece for a championship team.......perhaps, but a max player, he is not. A max player/franchise should have leadership, and be able to get in the face of his players, dominate a game at will.

Kayjay · Post #9 » by **Kayjay** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:18 am

Jose Calderon
DeMar Derozan in two to three years
Slightly older and busteder Hedo Turkoglu
Prime Chris Bosh
Dude we trade Andrea for when it's championship time

Indeed · Post #10 » by **Indeed** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:19 am

UssjTrunks wrote:
Everstealth wrote:Bosh is not Dwight Howard, nor is he Dwyane Wade/Lebron/Kobe/Melo, he's just himself and has a unique playing style. What happens when we dont build around him? There are nights that bosh is 30/12 and raptors still loose, how is this possible??

Because he didn't play defence like the rest of the team?

I agree though that BC failed completely in building around Bosh, which leads me to believe that wasn't his goal.

Yes, I agree Bosh didn't play defense like DHoward or Duncan or KG.
And I kind of agree that BC didn't build a team sorely on one person.

However, we have a similar setup as Magic and Spurs, but what went wrong there?

Indeed · Post #11 » by **Indeed** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:24 am

BryceMaxJames wrote:Bosh cannot take over a game, he is not on Howards, Wades, Kobe, Melo and James level. The fact that he gets his numbers means nothing to me. I look at it like he is trying to prove that he is on the level of the above mentioned players by getting his own numbers. He is a good player, a good solid piece for a championship team.......perhaps, but a max player, he is not. A max player/franchise should have leadership, and be able to get in the face of his players, dominate a game at will.

Maybe he is a max player, but in order to build a championship team, it is hard to find other pieces for him.
1) You need a good defensive big with range ability, so Bosh can occupy most of the spaces (Rasho)
2) You need a SF that can guard PF (Marion)
3) You need an explosive PG, so in case you got shut down, you can play pick and roll with him (Ford)
4) You need a SG that can shoot the corner 3 and defend his position (Parker)

Now, upgrade those ex-Raptors player and check the salary. Can we pay Bosh the max with all those pieces?

Kabookalu · Post #12 » by **Kabookalu** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:27 am

CreaM wrote:Mario Chalmers is not starting material, talk less about starting PG.

BTW, I would take that team over the one we have any day. They play defense, hustle and while they might not be as efficient offensively, they would blow the current team we have out of the water.

They're also not winning the championship despite fitting the criteria of the perfect team around Bosh according to the OP. No team is winning with Bosh as the best player. And there are no other point guards that fit the description besides Kirk Hinrich years ago; right now he can't even hit the side of a barn. Actually wait there's Jarrett Jack.

HomieOmey · Post #13 » by **HomieOmey** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:30 am

Offensive PF's are VERY hard to build around. You need shooters to have a strong inside/out game and you still need legit scorers on the perimeter who are going to the bulk of creating in the clutch (like Kobe and Pierce have been to Shaq/KG). Since the bulk of them are not especially strong defenders, you also need quite a bit of help on the defensive side of the ball. Bosh has an offensive team that compliments him pretty well, he just needs a lot more help on defense. Kind of hard to get both the offensive and defensive help he needs, and who knows if we'll ever get the line-up that Bosh can ultimately win with.

Guys like Carmelo and Durant make it so much easier on their GMs because all they really need is a bunch of solid defenders and average offensive weapons and they will probably have a great season. Much easier to get a big man who compliments a scorer than a talented swing who's elite on both ends or a C like Dwight who erases everything.

HomieOmey · Post #14 » by **HomieOmey** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:33 am

Choker wrote:They're also not winning the championship despite fitting the criteria of the perfect team around Bosh according to the OP. No team is winning with Bosh as the best player. And there are no other point guards that fit the description besides Kirk Hinrich years ago; right now he can't even hit the side of a barn. Actually wait there's Jarrett Jack.

I'm always surprised at how much talent the talked up 'ideal unit around Bosh' always seems to lack. Guys like Jefferson/Bosh/Aldridge need a Perkins/Biedrens/Bynum AND a Pierce/Roy/J.Johnson level duo to see any playoff success.

Noah
Bosh
Hedo
DeRozan
Hinrich

is the type of team most people describe, and that might fight its way to the second round but still isn't winning a title.

Kabookalu · Post #15 » by **Kabookalu** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:36 am

HomieOmey wrote:I'm always surprised at how much talent the talked up 'ideal unit around Bosh' always seems to lack. Guys like Jefferson/Bosh/Aldridge need a Perkins/Biedrens/Bynum AND a Pierce/Roy/J.Johnson level duo to see any playoff success.

Noah
Bosh
Hedo
DeRozan
Hinrich

is the type of team most people describe, and that might fight its way to the second round but still isn't winning a title.

Exactly, and if you upgrade each position, like say Hedo to Pierce, Noah to Howard, DeRozan to Roy, Bosh no longer is the best player on the team. People need to accept that as awesome as a talent we have in Bosh, and as much as I hate to say this, he isn't leading us anywhere with an ideal team around him or not.

JamesNaismith · Post #16 » by **JamesNaismith** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 4:46 am

Bosh is not a good enough player that you can build a championship team around.

Accept it.

Courtside · Post #17 » by **Courtside** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 5:09 am

Bosh is a guy that you build a team WITH, not build a team AROUND. The problem is that his salary will grow to over $20 mil per season an you're stuck filling pieces back around a salary, not a player.

This is the conundrum with Bosh. He's clearly a great talent, but the current method of doing business in the NBA will make it difficult for any team he is on to truly build WITH him when he is making so much.

I think that if he chooses to stay in Toronto then you extend him, the lowered BRI and cap rates this coming season will help get him at a more favorable price, but then do not be afraid to deal him a year into his new deal if things don't get much better in the win column next season. Once he is signed long term, you can get the most value for him.

I think BC fully recognizes this and has tried to assemble talent that can get better with or without Chris, and that Chris needs to fit in with as much as the other way around.

Kabookalu · Post #18 » by **Kabookalu** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 5:18 am

Courtside wrote:Bosh is a guy that you build a team WITH, not build a team AROUND. The problem is that his salary will grow to over $20 mil per season an you're stuck filling pieces back around a salary, not a player.

This is the conundrum with Bosh. He's clearly a great talent, but the current method of doing business in the NBA will make it difficult for any team he is on to truly build WITH him when he is making so much.

I think that if he chooses to stay in Toronto then you extend him, the lowered BRI and cap rates this coming season will help get him at a more favorable price, but then do not be afraid to deal him a year into his new deal if things don't get much better in the win column next season. Once he is signed long term, you can get the most value for him.

I think BC fully recognizes this and has tried to assemble talent that can get better with or without Chris, and that Chris needs to fit in with as much as the other way around.

+1 It's why I'm fine with him walking if we can't find a guy capable of pushing us to being one of the elite teams in the league. If we keep Bosh then we better hope that either Bargnani or DeRozan end up being superstars.

Courtside · Post #19 » by **Courtside** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 5:24 am

Choker wrote: It's why I'm fine with him walking if we can't find a guy capable of pushing us to being one of the elite teams in the league. If we keep Bosh then we better hope that either Bargnani or DeRozan end up being superstars.

Letting him walk would be a bad use of assets and have a detrimental effect on our reputation - unfortunately this is something that we have to consider, being a 2nd tier market.

If we keep Bosh or not, we still need Bargnani and DeRozan to become stars (or near stars)... whether we plan to keep those two or trade them for other pieces - the better they play, the better we are - or the more value they have to get us other assets.

Kabookalu · Post #20 » by **Kabookalu** » Tue Dec 8, 2009 5:28 am

Courtside wrote:Letting him walk would be a bad use of assets and have a detrimental effect on our reputation - unfortunately this is something that we have to consider, being a 2nd tier market.

If we keep Bosh or not, we still need Bargnani and DeRozan to become stars (or near stars)... whether we plan to keep those two or trade them for other pieces - the better they play, the better we are - or the more value they have to get us other assets.

Yeah what I meant was that I'm fine if we moved forward without Bosh. While we do need DeRozan and Bargnani to be stars regardless, if we were able to find a young talented big man to replace Bosh capable of being one of the top dogs in the league, like say we caught a young guy with the potential to be a Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett while he's still a bit of an unknown, then DeRozan and Bargnani becoming stars doesn't become as much of a priority (but we would love to see it anyways).