Grange: Bosh, Probably the Best Raptor Ever

[Schad]

Okay, how about this, after Toronto, only AD would play more than 30 minutes for any other team (1 season).

Vince basically led a team of bench players to (almost) the Eastern Conference Finals.

Only four players finished that team above 30 mpg as it was...Carter, Davis, a 38 year old Oakley, and Alvin, who played two more seasons with the Raptors before his body gave out. That doesn't make them non-players, it just means that age/arthritis/Bombay Sapphire caught up to them thereafter.

[Raps in 4]

Okay, how about this, after Toronto, only AD would play more than 30 minutes for any other team (1 season).

Vince basically led a team of bench players to (almost) the Eastern Conference Finals.

Only four players finished that team above 30 mpg as it was...Carter, Davis, a 38 year old Oakley, and Alvin, who played two more seasons with the Raptors before his body gave out. That doesn't make them non-players, it just means that age/arthritis/Bombay Sapphire caught up to them thereafter.

They were also far from all-stars during their time with the Raps. Great role players, but nothing spectacular.

[ontnut]

4 years after Vince took the 2001 team to game 7 of the 2nd round, every player with the exception of MoPete wasn't playing in the league anymore.

Goes to show you just how bad Vince's team was.

No, it goes to show how old his team was. When the playoffs rolled around:

- Antonio Davis was 33.
- Charles Oakley was 38.
- Dell Curry was 36.
- Kevin Willis was 39.
- Chris Childs was 33.
- Alvin Williams had no knees, and thus might as well have been 40.
- Keon Clark was ginned to the gills.

Combined, they were pretty solid, but their expiration dates were fast approaching.

Okay, how about this, after Toronto, only AD would play more than 30 minutes for any other team (1 season).

Vince basically led a team of bench players to (almost) the Eastern Conference Finals.

Lol that still depends mighty heavily on the fact that they were OLD. Your point really adds nothing.

I mean, think about it this way: the point of players no longer being in the league: if ray ray resigns, and they keep the big 3 in boston until they retire, will the same argument persist for a guy like rondo in that he played with scrubs because 4 years after he won the championship they all retired? Give me a break. 4 years is a pretty damn long time too considering most NBA careers are done by year 10.

[Schad]

They were also far from all-stars during their time with the Raps. Great role players, but nothing spectacular.

Yeah, but that's the point...a good role player, especially a defensive-minded one, is often a better complement than a guy with a pretty points per game total.

And one of them wasn't far from an All-Star; Antonio Davis made the team (thank you, multiple injuries!) that year, though it's one of the least-deserved appearances in recent memory.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

They were also far from all-stars during their time with the Raps. Great role players, but nothing spectacular.

Yeah, but that's the point...a good role player, especially a defensive-minded one, is often a better complement than a guy with a pretty points per game total.

And one of them wasn't far from an All-Star; Antonio Davis made the team (thank you, multiple injuries!) that year, though it's one of the least-deserved appearances in recent memory.

Right up there with Magloire. The East C situation back then was pitiful.

[gamer4Life]

Okay, how about this, after Toronto, only AD would play more than 30 minutes for any other team (1 season).

Vince basically led a team of bench players to (almost) the Eastern Conference Finals.

Only four players finished that team above 30 mpg as it was...Carter, Davis, a 38 year old Oakley, and Alvin, who played two more seasons with the Raptors before his body gave out. That doesn't make them non-players, it just means that age/arthritis/Bombay Sapphire caught up to them thereafter.

If they play limited minutes, someone has to back them up... we had Eric Montross, Garth Joseph, Mamadou, Michael Stewart...etc...

Defensively, I'd say they were a better cast than what we have now. But offensively, AD was terrible and was the only one who averaged over 10ppg. The entire opposing team's defense was focused on him.

Alvin Williams was a terrible point guard, he would only pass the ball around the perimeter, never in penetration or a fast break.

In his prime, Vince was a better player and a bigger difference maker than Bosh has been. Not to mention Vince did it within 3 years of entering in the league. His rookie season, Raptors went from 16-66 to almost .500.

Also, Vince almost led a (currently 1-19) Nets team to the playoffs last season.

[gamer4Life]

They were also far from all-stars during their time with the Raps. Great role players, but nothing spectacular.

Yeah, but that's the point...a good role player, especially a defensive-minded one, is often a better complement than a guy with a pretty points per game total.

And one of them wasn't far from an All-Star; Antonio Davis made the team (thank you, multiple injuries!) that year, though it's one of the least-deserved appearances in recent memory.

To think if there weren't any injuries, he wouldn't have made it and wouldn't have been able to advertise his "all-star" status to negotiate that ridiculous contract from the Raptors. Thank you Grunwald, Leo, and Duffy.

[Schad]

If they play limited minutes, someone has to back them up... we had Eric Montross, Garth Joseph, Mamadou, Michael Stewart...etc...

The Montrossity, Joseph, N'Diaye and Yogi played a combined 222 minutes in '00/'01. That's two minutes more than Darrick Murray alone played in our other other 47 win year...if you want to break out the "oh, the humanity!" numbers, he, Luke Jackson, Uros Slokar and PJ Tucker combined for 497 minutes, more than double that quartet that you named.

[inrapscity]

kind of too early to tell. i'm still waiting to see if he'll pull a t-mac on us.

[gamer4Life]

If they play limited minutes, someone has to back them up... we had Eric Montross, Garth Joseph, Mamadou, Michael Stewart...etc...

The Montrossity, Joseph, N'Diaye and Yogi played a combined 222 minutes in '00/'01. That's two minutes more than Darrick Murray alone played in our other other 47 win year...if you want to break out the "oh, the humanity!" numbers, he, Luke Jackson, Uros Slokar and PJ Tucker combined for 497 minutes, more than double that quartet that you named.

Well you forgot the "etc.." portion. A more accurate assessment would be to gather the worst Raptors in 2001 to play 500 minutes and compare the "oh, the humanity" (in your words, not mine). factor, as well as their statistics.

I suppose we should define what metrics to measure "best", but in terms of impact, do you really think that Bosh has had a bigger impact on the franchise than Vince Carter?

[Vinsane15]

no point even talking about vince since he was a complete jerk last season he was here and tried to put a stupid spin on it like we would believe it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aNUyNcdwN8

what a jerk...omg he wasn't trying!!

he did that even when some fans were booing him even before he got traded

[DonYon]

Sure VC is the obvious "best Raptor ever" pick, but I'd like to see how Bosh does with a team that's actually built around him. Bargs and Jose don't compliment Bosh's strengths; they accentuate his weaknesses. With a defensive rebounding C, 1 defensive wing that can hit open shots (Raja Bell or Bruce Bowen type), another wing that's an above-average scorer and adept at scoring in the clutch, and a good defending PG with average playmaking and scoring ability I think Bosh's true talent would shine.

Hedo can be our clutch scoring wing. DD can hopefully hone his defensive game and learn to hit open shots. If Jack improves his D as well as his offensive consistency, we're really only a defensive/rebounding beast of a C away from properly building around Bosh. Marco's an excellent 6th man, Amir is the perfect high-bbiq/energy guy, Evans is another solid big off the bench, Jose would be a great backup PG if Jack could actually improve to the point that he deserves to be the starter. All signs point to trading Bargs for a defensive anchor of a C.

oh come on. there's wayy too much crap about getting a defensive C

we DID have a defensive anchor in JO next to bosh last season

[Ari_Emanuel]

I think vince took a far less talented team farther than Bosh ever has. There was a resounding confidence when the game was close that Vince would win it for us. Bosh is a great player, but Vince was much better in his time here.

Agreed but its kinda hard to call him the best Raptor ever when he gave up on the team, stopped trying, trashed the organization, demanded a trade, and set the franchise back for years.

A team with Antonio Davis, Charles Oakley, Alvin Williams and Mo Pete in his prime may not be more "talented" than Bosh's team was, but on the whole, it was a much better team. Besides, the East was a lot better when Bosh was made it to playoffs than when VC took our team there.

VC is still better though but Bosh is only 25 and has A LOT of time.

[HomieOmey]

Difference Carter is a wing player, Bosh is a power forward. The way the game is today, you have to have an great wing player to be able to win.

Wing players are just so much easier to build around. Whether or not Vince was better is questionable, but he was definitely easier to build around than Bosh. He did great surrounded by average players who play defense. Not surprisingly, Iverson and Carmelo have seen great success with similar teams. Star swings are pretty easy to build around.

[MEDIC]

Bosh is getting closer by playing the way he is. If he can keep this intensity up & continue to get batter.....

[Scase]

No, it goes to show how old his team was. When the playoffs rolled around:

- Antonio Davis was 33.
- Charles Oakley was 38.
- Dell Curry was 36.
- Kevin Willis was 39.
- Chris Childs was 33.
- Alvin Williams had no knees, and thus might as well have been 40.
- Keon Clark was ginned to the gills.

Combined, they were pretty solid, but their expiration dates were fast approaching.

Okay, how about this, after Toronto, only AD would play more than 30 minutes for any other team (1 season).

Vince basically led a team of bench players to (almost) the Eastern Conference Finals.

Lol that still depends mighty heavily on the fact that they were OLD. Your point really adds nothing.

I mean, think about it this way: the point of players no longer being in the league: if ray ray resigns, and they keep the big 3 in boston until they retire, will the same argument persist for a guy like rondo in that he played with scrubs because 4 years after he won the championship they all retired? Give me a break. 4 years is a pretty damn long time too considering most NBA careers are done by year 10.

Please tell me you did not just equate AD, Oakman, Kevin Willis, and so on to KG, Pierce, and Ray Ray.......

[Mattd97]

Lol that still depends mighty heavily on the fact that they were OLD. Your point really adds nothing.

I mean, think about it this way: the point of players no longer being in the league: if ray ray resigns, and they keep the big 3 in boston until they retire, will the same argument persist for a guy like rondo in that he played with scrubs because 4 years after he won the championship they all retired? Give me a break. 4 years is a pretty damn long time too considering most NBA careers are done by year 10.

Please tell me you did not just equate AD, Oakman, Kevin Willis, and so on to KG, Pierce, and Ray Ray.......

what did he just say that wasnt true? dont disregard the comparison because bostons better. the comparison was their age not their skill.

[SkywalkerAC]

Bosh, DEFINITELY the best Raptor ever.

[MinnyMo]

If we can get to the 2nd round or better, then I will anoint Bosh as the best raptor ever.

[kobebryant]

BOSH AND VINCE TIED FOR BEST RAPTOR IN HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!