Go for broke at the trade deadline?

[Reignman]

You only go for broke if the following scenarios apply:

1) Is there a player that would make this team into a contender available at the trade deadline?
2) Do we have the pieces to make the move to get that player?

1) is obviously the most important question. Neither Caron Butler nor Kevin Martin would make this team a contender IMO.

We might not be a title "contender" but we'd move from "1st round fodder" to "playoff threat". That in itself would be a huge step for this team and would help considerably with the development of our players.

[timdunkit]

you know reign - i didn't realize butler only has 1 more year on his deal.

it would still be tough to move jose, but butler's deal is not as bad as i thought. it also gives us a $10 mil expiring this summer if we want to move it.

i still don't think he's a SG tho.

Bingo. Its not only that he is a better basketball player overall but he also has a more friendlier contract which is extremely important in terms of having an asset. Butler hasn't fallen off, hes just struggled with his shot because there not in the spots he wants. He is 29 and his contract expires when he is 31 which makes him in the middle of his prime for the next 2 years. He is only 6 months older then Jose and he doesn't play international ball. His rebounding numbers are still there and ask the Wiz board and they will say he is there best perimeter defender.

The positional stuff about Butler being a SG/SF is moot. Our offensive system doesn't really have a SG/SF, rather two bigs, two wings, 1 pg. Can Butler defend the two? Yes he can though he will struggle against some of the quickers twos in the league. However, he is a guy who can play both sides of the court and adds a unique offensive weapon for us on the wing. Unlike our top 3 main wing players (Cackadoo), Butler is moreso a scorer then a distributer. Its one of the things I think Cackadoo struggles with is because the three can't figure out whose the scorers and whose distributing.

ALot of people think it will cut in with Derozan time which I disagree with. The guys who are going to lose time will be Weems/Belinelli/Wright. If Triano sat Butler down and talk to him, I bet he could get Butler to come of the bench for 32 minutes so he can not only get his shots up but we can also keep our starting line up the same. Butler can enter the game for either one of DD or Hedo. You could have Hedo/Butler playing 33 minutes, DD playing 20 min and Weems/Belinelli playing 10 minutes depending on what we need on the floor (Belli for 3pt shooting, Weems for energy/running). Derozan doesn't lose any playing minutes.

[jimmie]

You only go for broke if the following scenarios apply:

1) Is there a player that would make this team into a contender available at the trade deadline?
2) Do we have the pieces to make the move to get that player?

1) is obviously the most important question. Neither Caron Butler nor Kevin Martin would make this team a contender IMO.

I'll go further. You only go for broke if you think it 95% gets you into the Eastern Conference championship series. Otherwise, why do it? This is clearly a "developing team", not a championship contender as it stands, and subtracting Calderon/moving DD to the bench to add a new starting SG does not improve this team that much, unless the SG you're talking about is legit Lebron/Kobe stopper (if such a player exists) who is not going to dominate the ball on offense. If the changes you make now don't significantly improve the outlook for THIS year, then there's really no point.

Ask yourself:

- Does Caron Butler make that much of a difference to take us far into the playoffs? Does Kevin Martin or anyone else who has been mentioned in this thread?
- Are you willing to take the risk that any trade ends up in a Jermaine O'Neal scenario and the team tanks the rest of the year and misses the playoffs, thus guaranteeing a Bosh exit?

This team does not need to "go for broke" because they are on track for what they said they wanted to do this year, and because your franchise player who is up for a new contract in the summer like the current direction. There really is no other goal for this year's team than to perform at a level that satisfies Bosh and builds toward a championship-contending team in 2-3 years. As long as the ship is moving forward on pace this year, IMO they should stick with the plan.

The summer will be a better time to consider addition/subtraction improvements for the 2010-11 season.

[cdel00]

A) You think DD is gonna just shine in his first playoff appearance and for some strange reason the refs are gonna let the rook play D on these stars.
B) Hedo is gonna be our perimeter defender and you assume he'll look the same as last season's playoffs with no D12 behind him.
C) Our offense will just overpower teams in the playoffs with Jose off the bench and our 48 minutes of PG play
D) You don't think we have a chance against the top 4 anyway so you don't want to "rock the boat" with a trade and you don't even want to bother trying to improve our team.

So which is it? I'm guessing it's D because we seem to have a bunch of chicken little fans on this board.

A) At this point, either of us could be right about DeRozan. DeRozan has been improving every game defensively, so there's a possibiity he can shine. Using the referees is just a lame excuse. B) Hedo is obviously not going to be the same defensively as he was with Orlando, but it's not like Hedo's man has lit him up this season. There's never a night that I've see Hedo literally getting destroyed. C + D) As I said yesterday, chemistry is only getting better and trading our core player means we're going to have build the chemistry again within the core.

DD is gonna have a very difficult playoffs, I can almost guarantee it considering teams will ramp up their D. And yes, it's a fact that refs call the game tighter in the playoffs and a rookie will not get many calls in his favour against those stars. Lame? yes, but unfortunately I've watched enough playoff games to know that this happens.

My 2cents:

A) last year DD got better as the year went on. He is doing the same this year. His style of game and body control earns respect. His keeping his mouth shut and not bitching to the refs is refreshing.

B) so far this year Hedo's opposing PER is inline with previous year's even without D12 behind him. Hedo is just a very smart glue defender.

C) more inclined to think our vastly improved D is gonna bottle things up in the half court and our new play style transition attack with an increased shot% being taken from in the paint is suited to the playoffs.

D) this year's team when playing focus is a team that scares all but Boston and Atlanta in the east.

[EventHorizon]

If with Calderon we are only a first round team, and with Butler we are a second round + team, than only a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) wouldn't trade Calderon for Butler. These opportunities are rare and it's not like we are selling the future in DD and Bargs.

[dagger]

The first thing to ask in a "go for broke" discussions is why were doing it and does the trade serve our longer-term interests. Short term, it would have to make us significantly better. Just shuffling Jose off for a problematic improvement at shooting guard makes little sense. It's not hard to improve at SG, but will it move us through the first round? And how does it impact Bosh? You have to be able to make the argument that it also strengthens us long term, because otherwise, why would he stay (if his decision is based purely on our potential.)?

And if Bosh buys into the scenario that we are a young team with upside if we keep things together, is going for broke a counter-intuitive strategy?

I'm not saying no to a trade, just pointing out some of the issues BC has to consider.

Does he want to go with Marcus Banks as a backup, and what happens if Jack is injured? Does he trust Banks as a starter?

Can Caron Buter defend the 2. He's basically a 3, and a defending 3. But the 2? And how do you rate his declining game? He's been in three years of decline now. How much of that is linked to Washington's situation? Would he bounce back here? Sometimes decline is just decline, and not some psychological response to losing. Did you see Shawn Marion Sunday and last night? Is that decline, or what?

And can Kevin Martin even play defence? And can he adjust to a team where his bigs would take away some of his shots?

These are just some of the issues. There are other trade targets. Not all of them are as prominent as these two. So I assume that BC, MG and the scouting staff are doing a lot of debating internally about whether the assets they are willing to part with can fetch a player who can make a sufficient difference.

[EventHorizon]

And how do you rate his declining game? He's been in three years of decline now.

Butler had his best statistical season last year. Not only is he not declining, he is a late bloomer and is currently entering his peak. This season's offensive and defensive shortcomings are more than related to the dysfunctional environment of WAS and the adaptation period due to a new coach.

2007-08 27 WAS NBA 58 58 39.9 7.6 16.3 .466 1.1 3.2 .357 4.1 4.5 .901 1.6 5.1 6.7 4.9 2.2 0.3 2.6 2.8 20.3
2008-09 28 WAS NBA 67 67 38.6 7.3 16.2 .453 1.0 3.1 .310 5.1 6.0 .858 1.8 4.4 6.2 4.3 1.6 0.3 3.1 2.5 20.8
2009-10 29 WAS NBA 38 38 39.5 6.2 14.4 .427 0.6 2.0 .293 4.0 4.6 .869 1.4 5.3 6.7 2.1 1.5 0.3 2.4 2.6 16.9

[TORapFan]

my question is

How legit are those inside sources

one guy said he would provide the mods with his source and nothing has happened, anyone know anything?

[orbesnet]

KEEP THE TEAM AS IS

All we need is Reggie to get into the mix and Hedo to round into form towards the end of the season and we'll have the improvements that we need. Like other posters have said, unless there's something unbelievable available I wouldn't mess with things.

[Pchu]

If with Calderon we are only a first round team, and with Butler we are a second round + team, than only a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) wouldn't trade Calderon for Butler. These opportunities are rare and it's not like we are selling the future in DD and Bargs.

How are the Raptors better with Butler? I mean you are saying having Butler will make this team a 2nd round team? You actually think the Raptors can beat the top 4 teams in the East this season in a 7 game series?

[roundhead0]

This season's offensive and defensive shortcomings are more than related to the dysfunctional environment of WAS and the adaptation period due to a new coach.

Until the gun incident, the biggest contributor to the dysfunctional environment in Washington was Butler looking slow and his production significantly off, and his teammates getting on him for it.

[gamer1314]

The thing is if we can we most of these game and hang around with Magics & Lakers...we would be pretty good as a team...so it would be very to mess around with it... I'm not sure about Bulter either...he is either lost right now or he is regressing...

Not too sure about K-Mart too...it just might ruin Bosh & Barg's touches and their momentum...they would have to adjust again...

A defensive SG who can shoot & drive a little is what we need...I would love to have Rip on the team...if we MUST make a trade...

[TORapFan]

you would take Rip and his huge contract vs Butler and his 2 year contract. Also RIp is a lot older than Butler i dont know if i make that trade. Would anyone make a trade around Rip?

Calderon
Wright
Rasho

for

Rip
Atkins or Bynum

i dont know its just those extra years kill us but we would have a good lineup.

Jack/Bynum/Banks
Rip/Belinelli
Hedo/Derozan/Weems
Bosh/Evans
Bargnani/Amir/O'Byrant

[ahandle]

hoping we play well, go in to the deadline with a strong record, then bosh will give BC some indication on what he will do and hope BC gets us a big push over the first round.

[Reignman]

The thing is if we can we most of these game and hang around with Magics & Lakers...we would be pretty good as a team...so it would be very to mess around with it... I'm not sure about Bulter either...he is either lost right now or he is regressing...

Not too sure about K-Mart too...it just might ruin Bosh & Barg's touches and their momentum...they would have to adjust again...

A defensive SG who can shoot & drive a little is what we need...I would love to have Rip on the team...if we MUST make a trade...

weird, you don't want Butler but you want Rip? Plus the guy you described is alot closer to Butler than Rip. You'd have to tweak your system quite a bit to fit Rip in whereas Butler is just a better version of DD and would fit in perfectly.

Then there's the whole contract thing with Butler's contract being much shorter AND he's the younger of the two. Rip has also "regressed" based on previous years play if you look at his stats this season.

[Dalek]

The thing is if we can we most of these game and hang around with Magics & Lakers...we would be pretty good as a team...so it would be very to mess around with it... I'm not sure about Bulter either...he is either lost right now or he is regressing...

Not too sure about K-Mart too...it just might ruin Bosh & Barg's touches and their momentum...they would have to adjust again...

A defensive SG who can shoot & drive a little is what we need...I would love to have Rip on the team...if we MUST make a trade...

weird, you don't want Butler but you want Rip? Plus the guy you described is alot closer to Butler than Rip. You'd have to tweak your system quite a bit to fit Rip in whereas Butler is just a better version of DD and would fit in perfectly.

Then there's the whole contract thing with Butler's contract being much shorter AND he's the younger of the two. Rip has also "regressed" based on previous years play if you look at his stats this season.

I think Rip is a much better fit. He is a catch and shoot guy which can add more motion to our offense. He doesn't need to have the ball in his hands as much as Butler. Speaking of Butler, I'd like us to get Rasual Butler more than Caron. Better defender and shooter. Just a thought!

[dacrusha]

You only go for broke if the following scenarios apply:

1) Is there a player that would make this team into a contender available at the trade deadline?
2) Do we have the pieces to make the move to get that player?

1) is obviously the most important question. Neither Caron Butler nor Kevin Martin would make this team a contender IMO.

We might not be a title "contender" but we'd move from "1st round fodder" to "playoff threat". That in itself would be a huge step for this team and would help considerably with the development of our players.

No we don't.

Adding Butler still means that Boston will sweep us, Atlanta will sweep us, Orlando will lose one game max and Cleveland will sweep us.

[TORapFan]

You only go for broke if the following scenarios apply:

1) Is there a player that would make this team into a contender available at the trade deadline?
2) Do we have the pieces to make the move to get that player?

1) is obviously the most important question. Neither Caron Butler nor Kevin Martin would make this team a contender IMO.

We might not be a title "contender" but we'd move from "1st round fodder" to "playoff threat". That in itself would be a huge step for this team and would help considerably with the development of our players.

No we don't.

Adding Butler still means that Boston will sweep us, Atlanta will sweep us, Orlando will lose one game max and Cleveland will sweep us.

not true. I believe with Butler we can beat Atlanta and Orlando.

[gamer1314]

The thing is if we can we most of these game and hang around with Magics & Lakers...we would be pretty good as a team...so it would be very to mess around with it... I'm not sure about Bulter either...he is either lost right now or he is regressing...

Not too sure about K-Mart too...it just might ruin Bosh & Barg's touches and their momentum...they would have to adjust again...

A defensive SG who can shoot & drive a little is what we need...I would love to have Rip on the team...if we MUST make a trade...

weird, you don't want Butler but you want Rip? Plus the guy you described is alot closer to Butler than Rip. You'd have to tweak your system quite a bit to fit Rip in whereas Butler is just a better version of DD and would fit in perfectly.

Then there's the whole contract thing with Butler's contract being much shorter AND he's the younger of the two. Rip has also "regressed" based on previous years play if you look at his stats this season.

On second thought, you're right... considering the age and contract. I also fear about the match-ups in the playoffs at the SG vs Carter/PP/Allen/Lebron/Johnson and Caron might just be our best bet...

[Lionel Messi]

The thing is if we can we most of these game and hang around with Magics & Lakers...we would be pretty good as a team...so it would be very to mess around with it... I'm not sure about Bulter either...he is either lost right now or he is regressing...

Not too sure about K-Mart too...it just might ruin Bosh & Barg's touches and their momentum...they would have to adjust again...

A defensive SG who can shoot & drive a little is what we need...I would love to have Rip on the team...if we MUST make a trade...

weird, you don't want Butler but you want Rip? Plus the guy you described is alot closer to Butler than Rip. You'd have to tweak your system quite a bit to fit Rip in whereas Butler is just a better version of DD and would fit in perfectly.

Then there's the whole contract thing with Butler's contract being much shorter AND he's the younger of the two. Rip has also "regressed" based on previous years play if you look at his stats this season.

I think Rip is a much better fit. He is a catch and shoot guy which can add more motion to our offense. He doesn't need to have the ball in his hands as much as Butler. Speaking of Butler, I'd like us to get Rasual Butler more than Caron. Better defender and shooter. Just a thought!

Rasual Butler sucks. He's an average defender who can knock down the three. I wouldnt trade anything significant for him, i guess antoine wright...but that depends on rasual's contract.
You wouldnt be making your team god enough to maybe upset a top 4 team by adding a rasual butler, with a caron butler...there's a solid chance we can beat the magic/hawks.