How effective are our Bosh+big man pairings?

[Trilogy]

I just want to point out that, Bargnani has a higher WS than Amir. This comes to the point that, as great as Amir helps the Raptors on the defensive end compare to Bargnani, it doesn't impact wins as much as Bargnani.

Win shares is a cumulative stat that is heavily based on the amount of minutes a player plays.

As for these stats, they just further outline the ridiculousness that is Amir not starting/playing less than Bargnani.

When will the horror end?

[Ripp]

Another question I have...why do Bosh and Bargnani have such terrible defensive chemistry together? I know Amir is our best defender, but Bosh and Bargs have been playing together since 2006. WTF are they so bad together, despite having played for nearly four years together? It is mindboggling, to me.

Finally, perhaps we should just ensure that when Bosh and Bargs are on the floor at the same time, we have amazing defense at the 1, 2 and 3? I.e., Jack/Weems/Wright/Bosh/Bargs? That way Bosh and Bargs have less to deal with, and can focus only on guarding their own men. I don't have any data to support this particular lineup, just pure speculation.

[Reignman]

I just want to point out that, Bargnani has a higher WS than Amir. This comes to the point that, as great as Amir helps the Raptors on the defensive end compare to Bargnani, it doesn't impact wins as much as Bargnani.

Win shares is a cumulative stat that is heavily based on the amount of minutes a player plays.

As for these stats, they just further outline the ridiculousness that is Amir not starting/playing less than Bargnani.

When will the horror end?

I guess when/if Bosh and Amir both bolt in the offseason?

It'll be fun times building a new frontcourt around the weakest link of this frontcourt.

[Reignman]

Another question I have...why do Bosh and Bargnani have such terrible defensive chemistry together? I know Amir is our best defender, but Bosh and Bargs have been playing together since 2006. WTF are they so bad together, despite having played for nearly four years together? It is mindboggling, to me.

Finally, perhaps we should just ensure that when Bosh and Bargs are on the floor at the same time, we have amazing defense at the 1, 2 and 3? I.e., Jack/Weems/Wright/Bosh/Bargs? That way Bosh and Bargs have less to deal with, and can focus only on guarding their own men. I don't have any data to support this particular lineup, just pure speculation.

Defensive players understand where to be and can read what's happening on the floor. Bosh / Rasho have worked well together on D, Bosh / Amir have worked well on D, even JO and Bosh had some good moments in their short time together. Hell, take a look at the D Bosh played in the olympics next to D12, excellent.

It all comes down to defensive IQ.

[Harry Palmer]

Excellent stuff, Ripp.

Thanks a bunch.

[nbajam]

I just want to point out that, Bargnani has a higher WS than Amir. This comes to the point that, as great as Amir helps the Raptors on the defensive end compare to Bargnani, it doesn't impact wins as much as Bargnani.

Win shares is a cumulative stat that is heavily based on the amount of minutes a player plays.

As for these stats, they just further outline the ridiculousness that is Amir not starting/playing less than Bargnani.

When will the horror end?

It is horrific, this level of favoritism on an NBA franchise.

[dagger]

So maybe some of you stathounds can explain this comment by Grange yesterday.

The reality might be that the Raptors’ struggles lie elsewhere – in fact, just about everywhere. According to 82games.com, the Raptors get outperformed at every position on the floor other than centre, according to something they call ‘net PER’, a measurement that calculates not only the production the Raptors get at each position but the production of their opponents from the corresponding spot.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It worked here, apparently.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708TOR2.HTM

[raps4life~]

No disrespect to Amir, but imagine how good we could have been if we had a LEGIT starting defensive/banger type playing next to Bosh.

[Trilogy]

So maybe some of you stathounds can explain this comment by Grange yesterday.

The reality might be that the Raptors’ struggles lie elsewhere – in fact, just about everywhere. According to 82games.com, the Raptors get outperformed at every position on the floor other than centre, according to something they call ‘net PER’, a measurement that calculates not only the production the Raptors get at each position but the production of their opponents from the corresponding spot.

I've actually noticed this on 82games.com

They list Bosh as the C and Bargs as the PF when they play together.

ie. Bargs has 49% mins at PF and 19% at C whereas Bosh has 62% at C and 3% at PF.

I think they always consider Bosh the C unless he is playing with Rasho.

So, that is why our C rating is so good on 82games.

[raps4life~]

So maybe some of you stathounds can explain this comment by Grange yesterday.

The reality might be that the Raptors’ struggles lie elsewhere – in fact, just about everywhere. According to 82games.com, the Raptors get outperformed at every position on the floor other than centre, according to something they call ‘net PER’, a measurement that calculates not only the production the Raptors get at each position but the production of their opponents from the corresponding spot.

I'm assuming he used 82games for that, and if that is the case, they have Bosh as our center.

[Ripp]

So maybe some of you stathounds can explain this comment by Grange yesterday.

The reality might be that the Raptors’ struggles lie elsewhere – in fact, just about everywhere. According to 82games.com, the Raptors get outperformed at every position on the floor other than centre, according to something they call ‘net PER’, a measurement that calculates not only the production the Raptors get at each position but the production of their opponents from the corresponding spot.

Most of the stats site list Bosh as the C.

[Harry Palmer]

So maybe some of you stathounds can explain this comment by Grange yesterday.

The reality might be that the Raptors’ struggles lie elsewhere – in fact, just about everywhere. According to 82games.com, the Raptors get outperformed at every position on the floor other than centre, according to something they call ‘net PER’, a measurement that calculates not only the production the Raptors get at each position but the production of their opponents from the corresponding spot.

82games has Bargs listed at the 4 75% of his time, and center only 25%. They have Bosh playing almost all his minutes at the 5.

As Bargs loses the majority of his matchups and Bosh wins the majority of his, they correspondingly have the position they list Bosh at being the one we win.

[Ripp]

Regarding 82games.com ...if you browse around and look at other teams with similar records to the Raptors (e.g., Bulls [http://www.82games.com/0910/0910CHI5.HTM], Heat [http://www.82games.com/0910/0910MIA5.HTM], Bobcats [http://www.82games.com/0910/0910CHA5.HTM], Rockets [http://www.82games.com/0910/0910HOU5.HTM]), the Raptors are the only team which has only one position being a net positive. All of the others with similar records have at least 2 positions being a net positive.

Kind of interesting.

[nbajam]

It worked here, apparently.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708TOR2.HTM

Yeah it did, but look at this:
................................................Min. .Off. .Def.
Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh..... 555 1.16 1.06
Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bosh-Nesterovic....162 1.18 1.02

Much better with Rasho, a traditional center, beside Bosh.

[Ripp]

No disrespect to Amir, but imagine how good we could have been if we had a LEGIT starting defensive/banger type playing next to Bosh.

Haywood/Nene/Noah/Horford paired with Bosh would be pretty fun to watch defensively. I also like Gortat, too. I don't see how Orlando keeps so much payroll after they presumably flame out in the playoffs, so perhaps Gortat can be had.

BTW, how good is Amir defensively, exactly? I think a lot of us are implicitly assuming that Bargs is a terrible defender, and Bosh is a good/average one. But maybe Bosh is just a bad defender too, and Amir simply amazing?

[Tony_Montana]

knickerbocker2k2 had an excellent thread about this last year.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=888582

So what does this mean? Basically per 92 possessions (which is what we are at right now) we will score 98 points against 102 allowed. Defensively this would be easily in the bottom 3. For instance Golden State allows at around 1.10 per possession.

very prophetic.

[Courtside]

BTW, how good is Amir defensively, exactly? I think a lot of us are implicitly assuming that Bargs is a terrible defender, and Bosh is a good/average one. But maybe Bosh is just a bad defender too, and Amir simply amazing?

IMO - on a scale of 1 ~ 10

Bargs: 4.5
Bosh: 5.0
Amir: 7.0 *

Once Amir can do this as a starter against more starting caliber players, the asterisk can be removed. I think he's probably a 6 or so.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It worked here, apparently.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708TOR2.HTM

Yeah it did, but look at this:
................................................Min. .Off. .Def.
Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh..... 555 1.16 1.06
Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bosh-Nesterovic....162 1.18 1.02

Much better with Rasho, a traditional center, beside Bosh.

No doubt it was better, but that doesn't explain why it is so freaking bad.

The following year Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh did this:
[url]
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809TOR2.HTM[/url]

Almost a reversal. Is that not coaching?

[J-Roc]

Isn't Amir only good on D until he picks up a couple of quick fouls.