How effective are our Bosh+big man pairings?

[isyed]

Fair enough. My apologies then...

Harry- i have question regarding this team for you. What moves do you think if happened could push this team into the top 5 teams. Regardless of how but would something like Iggy, Arenas and Dally with a resigned Amir be a good starting point, how about we gut the team to get someone like CP3 (highly Unlikely but still a financial struggling team might make the move)

If BC could somehow get CP3 without losing Bosh, I would be happy as anyone around here. I`d think we still need the right pieces to surround them, but that`s sooooooo much easier once you have the foundation in place.

Now, I say this thinking there`s not a hope in hell BC can pull that off, but if he does, he`ll have earned his rep as far as I`m concerned.

There is a very very slight chance but if CP3 asks for a trade and the Hornets want to move him out of the conference and want to get major cap relief from bad contracts such as Okafor and Posey, BC should make the push. I think the only real team who could make a push and where CP3 might even agree to play in might be OKC. If they back away then i hope package of expirings in Evans + Banks + Beli and young player in Derozan and picks (2011 and 2012) + a cheap bigman in Bargs (if he keeps imporiving even more) might be enticing for the Hornets.

[roundhead0]

I also agree that Andrea's 1on1 defense is actually pretty good, his huge weakness is help defense and rotation

It doesn't seem like he thinks ahead and anticipates, it shows in his offense as well.

Well, this is just speculation, but when you're learning something I think it's pretty typical to be really focused on the mechanics and thinking about what you need to do. Only later does it start to come naturally and a lot faster. Think back to when you first learned to drive a car, and how you had to pay attention to so many little things that anticipating what other drivers were going to do was the last thing on your mind. A few years later all the little things come naturally, and you pay far more attention to what's going on around you, and can make better decisions faster.

I think that's typical in younger players. It MIGHT be the case for Bargnani, but it's impossible to know for sure.

[Trilogy]

Fair enough. My apologies then...

Harry- i have question regarding this team for you. What moves do you think if happened could push this team into the top 5 teams. Regardless of how but would something like Iggy, Arenas and Dally with a resigned Amir be a good starting point, how about we gut the team to get someone like CP3 (highly Unlikely but still a financial struggling team might make the move)

If BC could somehow get CP3 without losing Bosh, I would be happy as anyone around here. I`d think we still need the right pieces to surround them, but that`s sooooooo much easier once you have the foundation in place.

Now, I say this thinking there`s not a hope in hell BC can pull that off, but if he does, he`ll have earned his rep as far as I`m concerned.

There is a very very slight chance but if CP3 asks for a trade and the Hornets want to move him out of the conference and want to get major cap relief from bad contracts such as Okafor and Posey, BC should make the push. I think the only real team who could make a push and where CP3 might even agree to play in might be OKC. If they back away then i hope package of expirings in Evans + Banks + Beli and young player in Derozan and picks (2011 and 2012) + a cheap bigman in Bargs (if he keeps imporiving even more) might be enticing for the Hornets.

A CP3 deal is really less about what we can offer rather more about what other teams can offer.

I've given this example before, but a team like OKC has cap space so they would offer a TE (giving NOH instant salary relief) Harden/Westbrook or both and some combo of picks. We can't come close to topping something like that.

Strange though, the Arenas, Daly, Iggy thing is the exact same idea I've come up with that is somewhat realistic.

[Harry Palmer]

Fair enough. My apologies then...

Harry- i have question regarding this team for you. What moves do you think if happened could push this team into the top 5 teams. Regardless of how but would something like Iggy, Arenas and Dally with a resigned Amir be a good starting point, how about we gut the team to get someone like CP3 (highly Unlikely but still a financial struggling team might make the move)

If BC could somehow get CP3 without losing Bosh, I would be happy as anyone around here. I`d think we still need the right pieces to surround them, but that`s sooooooo much easier once you have the foundation in place.

Now, I say this thinking there`s not a hope in hell BC can pull that off, but if he does, he`ll have earned his rep as far as I`m concerned.

There is a very very slight chance but if CP3 asks for a trade and the Hornets want to move him out of the conference and want to get major cap relief from bad contracts such as Okafor and Posey, BC should make the push. I think the only real team who could make a push and where CP3 might even agree to play in might be OKC. If they back away then i hope package of expirings in Evans + Banks + Beli and young player in Derozan and picks (2011 and 2012) + a cheap bigman in Bargs (if he keeps imporiving even more) might be enticing for the Hornets.

The issue with our making CP3 trades isn't that we can't offer something which, under their financial circumstances, doesn't make more sense than keeping Paul.

It's that if he's available other teams can make offers that make even more sense for them.

But, hey, THIS is what BC is good at, horse trading. So I guess in the immortal word of Joaquin Andujar: youneverknow.

[Harry Palmer]

A CP3 deal is really less about what we can offer rather more about what other teams can offer.

I've given this example before, but a team like OKC has cap space so they would offer a TE (giving NOH instant salary relief) Harden/Westbrook or both and some combo of picks. We can't come close to topping something like that.

Strange though, the Arenas, Daly, Iggy thing is the exact same idea I've come up with that is somewhat realistic.

DONT TYPE SO FAST.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I also agree that Andrea's 1on1 defense is actually pretty good, his huge weakness is help defense and rotation

It doesn't seem like he thinks ahead and anticipates, it shows in his offense as well.

Andrea's 1-on-1 defense is good when his opposing man has the ball, but I think 1-on-1 defense gets oversimplified here. He loses his man a lot and doesn't deny position when his man doesn't have the ball. Basically, his defending comes down to, me against you, you've got the ball, I'll stop you from getting to the basket, which is a much smaller part of NBA defense than many people seem to think, particularly given handcheck rules and the like.

[_venom_]

Bargnani is a decent man to man post defender but he hardly provides any lane intimidation.

It doesn't help the Raptors when the whole team is "soft", no point in calling out Bargnani. Bargnani does try to do a good job of providing lane intimdation. How can you not consider stepping out of position and contest/alter shots consistently as attempting to provide that lane intimidation?

Then there's his complete lack of offensive rebounding and his pitiful defensive rebounding. This doesn't meant that Amir is the answer but he is a better option than Bargnani at this point in time.

Offensive rebounding? Bargnani sucks without question. Yes, Bargnani does suck at defensive rebounding too, but ALL Bargnani does is box out. People act as if ALL Bargnani does is stay in the paint and float, but he doesn't. Bargnani is constantly asked to help on the perimeter to trap on screens and hedge. You guys don't think that's a whole lot of energy require than he has to go back to the paint and box out? I question a lot of you guys. By no means is Bargnani an amazing defender, but he does give effort.

I agree that most of the team is soft but having your 7 foot center be soft is a lot more important than any other player being soft. Look at all the top teams and see if their center is willing to put someone on their ass (Perkins, Howard, Shaq, Horford, Bynum, Haywood, Nene, etc...). When player's drive against those Centers they have to think about getting hammered, against the Raptors not so much.

Also, how can you honestly say that Bargnani is putting in so much effort because he has to hedge and recover? Every big in the NBA has to do the same thing and they can still get back and box out AND grab the rebound. I wish people would stop with the excuses for Bargnani's rebounding. He is one of the worst rebounders of all time and it's not because he's busy boxing out or because he's putting so much effort at trapping and hedging, it's because he sucks at it.

And Bargnani's defensive and rebounding shortcomings might not be so problematic if he indeed was as good offensively as some people claim he is. He is not that good offensively. He can be in spurts but overall he is a very inconsistent offensive player who can't be relied upon all the time. That and our offense is just as good with him on the bench as it is with him on the court. If he's not making a difference offensively and he sucks at defense and rebounding then what exactly is he helping us with?

[dillio]

Nice thread, certainly an eye opener. Triano needs to experiment with moving Amir into the starting lineup and sliding Bosh over to C.

[ponder276]

People get tricked into thinking Bargs is a decent defender because he occasionally plays good man d, gets the odd block, and he does a decent job defending smaller players on the perimiter. However, he also gets regularly demolished by true Cs (Bogut, old Shaq, Bynum, etc.), players are not intimidated at all driving to the hoop against him, he's a horrendous defensive rebounder, has no hustle, and most importantly he's just really slow on rotations and still does not understand defensive positioning. And with his man d, even though it's somewhat fundamentally sound (does a decent job moving his feet and not biting on fakes), it's totally passive defense, he really does not alter his man's shot at all or get them off their game in any way, guys pretty much just shoot over Bargs knowing that he's just gonna stand there with his hands up, not actually jumping or contesting.

But again, much more so than man d, Bargs is terrible as a team defender. When Bargs is in the game we basically have to chose between having a layup line at the hoop or collapsing the d and leaving perimiter shooters wide open. I think his d would be somewhat less of an issue if he were asked to guard PFs beside a true defensive anchor type C, but that's not our situation. While there are many reasons are defense is bad, I think Bargs starting at C is by far the largest reason, replace him with an above average defensive C and our team is improved FAR more defensively than by replacing any other player with an above average defender. Or simply switch Bargs' role with Amirs', and you'll see a massive defensive improvement, as Amir is a very good defender (even if neither him nor Bosh are anywhere close to being traditional Cs).

[Madmax 134]

Bargs is not a good defender because he doesn't play with any level of intensity. He does a lot of good things defensively but good/great defenders play with intensity and exude passion, two things Bargs has not shown enough of...

[Courtside]

If BC could somehow get CP3 without losing Bosh, I would be happy as anyone around here. I`d think we still need the right pieces to surround them, but that`s sooooooo much easier once you have the foundation in place.

Now, I say this thinking there`s not a hope in hell BC can pull that off, but if he does, he`ll have earned his rep as far as I`m concerned.

I think even if you use the departure of Bosh to facilitate getting CP3 - that would be pretty kickass too.

Imagine some sort of 3 way deal where Bosh goes to say, Houston.
Jarret Jack, Shane Battier and a Luis Scola go to New Orleans.
Chris Paul comes to Toronto.
(fillers and sweeteners as needed)

Chris Paul >> Chris Bosh. Good point guards are way more valuable than good power forwards, have a much more direct impact on wins and losses, and will get a team more playoff wins than a good PF. Only a HOF center or shooting guard are potentially more valuable - and even then - I think Chris Paul is more HOF likely than Chris Bosh.

[Harry Palmer]

If BC could somehow get CP3 without losing Bosh, I would be happy as anyone around here. I`d think we still need the right pieces to surround them, but that`s sooooooo much easier once you have the foundation in place.

Now, I say this thinking there`s not a hope in hell BC can pull that off, but if he does, he`ll have earned his rep as far as I`m concerned.

I think even if you use the departure of Bosh to facilitate getting CP3 - that would be pretty kickass too.

Imagine some sort of 3 way deal where Bosh goes to say, Houston.
Jarret Jack, Shane Battier and a Luis Scola go to New Orleans.
Chris Paul comes to Toronto.
(fillers and sweeteners as needed)

Chris Paul >> Chris Bosh. Good point guards are way more valuable than good power forwards, have a much more direct impact on wins and losses, and will get a team more playoff wins than a good PF. Only a HOF center or shooting guard are potentially more valuable - and even then - I think Chris Paul is more HOF likely than Chris Bosh.

While I agree Paul is better, you replace Bosh with Paul and we're right back in a similar situation to where we are now, with one real star, who will keep us good enough to not get good enough.

A better version, probably, but not much.

[Courtside]

While I agree Paul is better, you replace Bosh with Paul and we're right back in a similar situation to where we are now, with one real star, who will keep us good enough to not get good enough.

A better version, probably, but not much.

Sure - the initial exchange itself doesn't instantly propel us to title contenders, but I think it's easier to fill in the other 4 positions around Paul than it is with Bosh.

Further, Chris Paul is signed for another 2+ seasons at a more reasonable rate than Bosh is and when he is up for extension, it will be under the new CBA which is going to be more favorable to ownership. If Bosh was up for a 6 year $93 mil deal (like Vince or Dirk got) I wouldn't be as concerned - but this $130 mil deal makes me throw up just a little each time I think we might actually have to pay it, because the crazy market this summer will set that as his price.

Further still, Calderon becomes expendable and can be used to nab a mid-level PF or C to play alongside Bargs. He won't get us a star, but someone on the level of a Haywood, Maxiell, Landry, Verajao, Turiaf, etc...