The Season of Burke: Some Interesting Things

[Inigo Montoya]

Lets also keep in mind not many rookies are given reigns to a franchise. I bet if you crossed referenced those players they had much more experience than Burke.

You have the link with the results. It includes all players, not just rookies. It includes all player positions. Plenty of rookies got the keys to a franchise (though it is debatable if Trey is one of them) over the years. None of them was worse given those parameters. What does it matter if you cross referenced those players in that list and find out that they did how much experience they had? The most recent of them played in 1960.

It makes a big deal. If you comparing a guy with no experience, to players with a couple years of experience, and then comparing them to what they did 1 season, it is unfair to compare a guy who was less prepared than others. But if it were pre-1960, than it isn't even the same basketball, so i wouldn't even accept a comparison.

I only compare people in Stern Era in the Stern Era, anything before that was whatever, it was a totally different game, and wasn't the same NBA that we know.

I rather just take all rookies who got a starting role in their first year in Sterns/Silvers era and take those stats and compare.

I am not comparing him to anyone - these are the only players who matched the criteria. Out of ALL PLAYERS WHO PLAYED IN THE NBA, THOSE ARE THE ONES WHO QUALIFIED. It means that there are no rookies who ever played as many minutes, and shot as much as Trey did, while posting less points or less assists.

[JazzMatt13]

This whole season is whack, there is no exceptions, and there are no rules. There is no base line to compare what these guys did, because it was so out of whack it is hard to make sense of a pile of crap that Corbin coached.

This team is just all over the place. Burke is shooting so much, because Hayward is getting the ball and not shooting, and I bet a lot are late in clock and so he hucking back to Burke who has to shoot because no time to reset.

Hayward was a wuss, I am disappointed in him for wanting to be this player we didn't need. The guy I saw in early January is the Hayward I wanted. A man who shoots confidently and can win a game for us.

[Inigo Montoya]

This whole season is whack, there is no exceptions, and there are no rules. There is no base line to compare what these guys did, because it was so out of whack it is hard to make sense of a pile of crap that Corbin coached.

This team is just all over the place. Burke is shooting so much, because Hayward is getting the ball and not shooting, and I bet a lot are late in clock and so he hucking back to Burke who has to shoot because no time to reset.

Hayward was a wuss, I am disappointed in him for wanting to be this player we didn't need. The guy I saw in early January is the Hayward I wanted. A man who shoots confidently and can win a game for us.

What?! Suddenly there is no baseline to compare Trey, after you compared him all year to Deron, Lillard, MCW, Stockton and whoever else as rookies?! Suddenly this whole season is "whack" so you can't compare him to anyone? Like he's the only player ever whose team had no expectations (*cough* MCW *cough*).

And BTW, Hayward leads this team in field goal attempts, so how can you say he is not shooting?

[kebutah]

When the data doesn't prove your point, forget the data.

[StocktonShorts]

I think there are lots of interesting discussions to be had about Trey and the season he had, but for some reason we can't seem to have them without arguing with hyperbole.

[JazzMatt13]

Just posting what Trey did this year in comparison of the whole league was best I could do, it just showed where he was an individual among all other individuals. Comparing him to Dwill and Stockton or Lillard or even Carter-Williams allows to much fluff, with no solid answers.

Every player is put in completely different situations. Bottom line we can agree Corbin was a terrible coach, so no wonder Burke wasn't jumping jack flash because this team wasn't being ran correctly.

Everyone knows Jazz's system has 1 unbreakable law, and that is 1 PG and 1 PF, pick and roll. Well Corbin decided to put Marvin Williams as a Stretch 4 to defend, but then we still end up with the leagues worst defense. So instead of picking and rolling at PF, we have 3 guys wanting to shoot on the arc, and 1 defensive big handling all interior coverage.

It is like planning to fight a war, and giving all your enemies your plans, so they avoid everything you throw at them. If in a space battle, Corbin would only think in 2 dimensions.

Burkes shooting seems to be the only major thing on trial, and I can think of several factors why this whole teams shooting and scoring wasn't good, it took a team effort.

[Teh Greatest]

Trey Burke isn't anything special. The stats prove it. He doesn't even have much to grow on. He is a below average starter. I don't understand how it's hard to say we missed it with MCW

[StocktonShorts]

Trey Burke isn't anything special. The stats prove it. He doesn't even have much to grow on. He is a below average starter. I don't understand how it's hard to say we missed it with MCW

Maybe give the kid a chance to play out his rookie deal before condemning him to mediocrity?

[Inigo Montoya]

Trey Burke isn't anything special. The stats prove it. He doesn't even have much to grow on. He is a below average starter. I don't understand how it's hard to say we missed it with MCW

Maybe give the kid a chance to play out his rookie deal before condemning him to mediocrity?

How is that any different than saying we don't want to draft player X this coming draft because we think he won't be that good? Mediocrity isn't an insult - most players in this league are mediocre.

[StocktonShorts]

Trey Burke isn't anything special. The stats prove it. He doesn't even have much to grow on. He is a below average starter. I don't understand how it's hard to say we missed it with MCW

Maybe give the kid a chance to play out his rookie deal before condemning him to mediocrity?

How is that any different than saying we don't want to draft player X this coming draft because we think he won't be that good? Mediocrity isn't an insult - most players in this league are mediocre.

Guys get drafted on potential and they should be given time to realize that potential.

Not drafting someone means you don't see that potential or you see some fatal flaw that turns you off.

I really doubt that the Jazz saw anything from Burke this season that would completely override (in a negative sense) what they thought about him 9 months ago.

[JazzMatt13]

More Notes:
-All players with USG% of 21, and AST Ratio of 26.9, it is an exclusive club of 14 players (hayward and carter-williams not part of). Of those players, only Chris Paul has a better TO Ratio, CP3 7.9 per 100 possessions, and Trey Burke 8.9 per 100. This is insane. Of those 14, there is only 9 who played more than 30 mpg!

-Looking at this same group of USG and AST Ratio, but only the starters aka 30+ mpg, Trey Burke had the slowest PACE of 93.70, he was also beat at Off. Rating to (in order) CP3, Dwill, Holiday, Lowry, Lawson, and Wall. But worst of all, Burke had the worst Def. Rating, allowing 10 more points than #1 CP3. Of that group, Burke is a top 5 rebounder in terms of percentage of teams rebounds.

Based on this info and some more info, Trey is in the group of top 10 PG's in league when in comes to doing PG things, but, he just hasn't finished complete initiation. He got the ticket in, he just has to finish pledge year. He is capable on over half of what matters when it comes to Point Guard but still has a few tune ups in off season to really be part of the group this time next year. I know some were good out gate, but only 1 was ROTY, and that was Chris Paul, and only 1 other got more rookies of the month, Brandon Jennings.

The way I see it, Trey Burke is the Deron Williams of the CP3 vs Dwill battle, and Carter-Williams is the CP3. But that is just based on how the battle is being fought, a PG vs PG situation, one a Jazz man who is losing the ROTY race.

But when I think of it, Trey Burke to me, is way more like Chris Paul, because he is in same category in many of these stats even if he wasn't great at efficiency. Not to mention Trey is way more like Damien Lillard, with a similar season. I see Carter-WIlliams being a bust like Jennings or Evans, rather then being a great player with playoff contention like CP3 or Dwill.


Other things:
-I found something very unique, Trey Burke is only player to have 897 FGA, 336 3FGA, and 113 FTA. So I think it is safe to say peoples concerns with him shooting to much, as a valid concern, especially if

-I did a NBA search for, guys with +2,000 minutes player, 131 or less turn overs, and 396 or more assists, and Trey Burke is the only this season with that stat line. Yeah he could use more assists, but that ratio is near the 4 to 1 area.

-If you look at anything that isn't shooting FG's and 3pt's, or their efficency, Trey Burke on paper looks like one of the best players in NBA, at least at PG position. His clutch play on top makes it even better. The dude has so much potential, and if efficiency was there, he would be considered next CP3.

[JazzMatt13]

Trey Burke isn't anything special. The stats prove it. He doesn't even have much to grow on. He is a below average starter. I don't understand how it's hard to say we missed it with MCW

I watch Trey. I watched Dwill vs CP3. I watched a lot basketball, and I looked at "all" the stats, and I beg to differ. Had Trey Burke's defense and shooting percentages would have been league level, he would have been considered Lillard 2.0, aka the next CP3.

Trey and Lillard got Skills Challenge together, thanks to Burke. Trey has 3 ROTM, and should have got 5. Outside defense rating, and shooting percentages in certain situations, Burke could be just as good Lillard. Were better off embracing Burke, than doubting him like everyone always does since he was in College because he always proves them wrong, just like he is going to prove ROTY voters wrong next year when we go to playoffs and Philly doesn't.

[Viktor Vaughn]

I'm very interested to see how Trey will improve in the off season. I know he spoke about improving a lot of his legs so he can be quicker. I hope he does work on his shot selection as well, because I think that's my least favourite part of his game. And of course, more time with Stockton would be awesome.

I also really want to see how he does if he has a good coach, and a good system.

I think Trey can be a good PG. I think he will be above mediocre. I don't think he will be great, but he'll be good. He just needs to get his shot selection good, and be in a pass-first system, and then he'll be alright.

[Teh Greatest]

Trey Burke isn't anything special. The stats prove it. He doesn't even have much to grow on. He is a below average starter. I don't understand how it's hard to say we missed it with MCW

I watch Trey. I watched Dwill vs CP3. I watched a lot basketball, and I looked at "all" the stats, and I beg to differ. Had Trey Burke's defense and shooting percentages would have been league level, he would have been considered Lillard 2.0, aka the next CP3.

Trey and Lillard got Skills Challenge together, thanks to Burke. Trey has 3 ROTM, and should have got 5. Outside defense rating, and shooting percentages in certain situations, Burke could be just as good Lillard. Were better off embracing Burke, than doubting him like everyone always does since he was in College because he always proves them wrong, just like he is going to prove ROTY voters wrong next year when we go to playoffs and Philly doesn't.

Tyreke Evans got the rookie of the year award. Years later he is considered a bad contract and is coming off the bench. Speaking of the Rookie of the Month award, in 2001, Jamal Tinsley won the award twice. Is he something special.

Burke is an average starter. Sure if we draft two superstars he could be just fine for the Jazz, but he can not shoot as much as he did again. Burke could improve, and could become something special but as of now I don't see it. If Parker and Wiggins are gone and we have the chance to take Exum I will have no problem what so ever.

[Inigo Montoya]

I watch Trey. I watched Dwill vs CP3. I watched a lot basketball, and I looked at "all" the stats, and I beg to differ. Had Trey Burke's defense and shooting percentages would have been league level, he would have been considered Lillard 2.0, aka the next CP3.

But his defense is horrible and his shooting percentages are bad... You can say this about anybody. Had Jamal Tinsley's defense and shooting percentages been at league level then blah blah blah. And he still can't finish inside, or get in the lane consistently.

Trey and Lillard got Skills Challenge together, thanks to Burke. Trey has 3 ROTM, and should have got 5. Outside defense rating, and shooting percentages in certain situations, Burke could be just as good Lillard. Were better off embracing Burke, than doubting him like everyone always does since he was in College because he always proves them wrong, just like he is going to prove ROTY voters wrong next year when we go to playoffs and Philly doesn't.

Again, you can't just take out all the weaknesses and say that if it weren't for them, player X would be a star - it goes for everyone. Yes, by all means, let's ignore any defensive and offensive metric that makes our favorite player look bad, and say that if we ignore them, he'll be great. And no, Trey can't be as good as Lillard, who is bigger, much more athletic, and a much better scorer.

And didn't you just say we can't compare Trey to anyone because this season is "whack"? Yet suddenly we are back to comparisons yet again. I wonder how can you argue he should be ROY if we can't compare him to anyone.

[Inigo Montoya]

Guys get drafted on potential and they should be given time to realize that potential.

Not drafting someone means you don't see that potential or you see some fatal flaw that turns you off.

I really doubt that the Jazz saw anything from Burke this season that would completely override (in a negative sense) what they thought about him 9 months ago.

The guy wrote his opinion, not the Jazz's opinion. And by not drafting someone, it doesn't have to mean you don't see potential or that there is a fate flaw in that player. You can not draft someone because someone else has better upside, or because other players fill a more pressing need, or are a more safe pick. Conversely, you can draft someone who is considered a safe pick but with lower upside, like Trey. So it isn't condemning him to mediocrity - maybe the Jazz were willing to settle for a safer bet on a mediocre player rather than a riskier player with higher upside.

[tleikheen]

My thinking is the Jazz will be running to the podium double time if they get a shot at Dante Exum.Having a PG who can get to the basket AND finish would totally open up the Jazz offense.
For right now do the Jazz see a potential defensive team developing OR do they see the offense can be developed 1st.
Jazz got to be very concerned about the offensive point of attack by the other teams PG and the lack of attack from their own PG play.A super quick,tall PG like Exum would address both those concerns.Burke was never talked of being any kind of *star* when he was drafted.Talk of Exum does.

[JazzMatt13]

"But his defense is horrible and his shooting percentages are bad... You can say this about anybody. Had Jamal Tinsley's defense and shooting percentages been at league level then blah blah blah. And he still can't finish inside, or get in the lane consistently."

Yeah but guys like Tinsley aren't in the same group of PG's who have great PG abilities, like assists and turnover ratios. In terms of PG skills, Burke is up there with the best in several categories. Clutch, Assists, TOV, and FT.


Would you be more happy if Burke was terrible at ball control, terrible at clutch shooting, and terrible and being a PG, but then good at defense and shooting percentages? We saw how that worked for Philly, they co-own the worst losing streak.

I really think people are underestimating him. Remember when everyone said Marvin isn't that great, and he isn't doing nothing on the court. Mostly because he wasn't bringing many points or stats on the board. But then this year all of a sudden people finally see that he is doing something and brings impact.

Trey Burke is an impact player, and has a lot of gifts not on paper. Am I going to say all that stuff out weighs the stats he doesn't have, no I wouldn't, I know, and everyone knows, Trey's defense and shooting percentages were too awful and not acceptable. Even though he does a lot of other things right, no one is giving him any benefit of the doubt, not like they do with Carter-Williams who lacked in many things.

The thing is, there are winning players, and losing players. Every player can get stats, but certain players just enable teams to win, whether or not they get the stats. Just like Marvin, his stats don't help us win, but he is a winning player on this team, without him we couldn't do it. Just like we couldn't win without Burke.

[Inigo Montoya]

Yeah but guys like Tinsley aren't in the same group of PG's who have great PG abilities, like assists and turnover ratios. In terms of PG skills, Burke is up there with the best in several categories. Clutch, Assists, TOV, and FT.

Tinsley was a very good passer...
Trey's free throw percentages won't make a big difference if he can't get to the line. He averaged 1.6 FTA for the season...
As the basketball reference link showed - hardly any player in history averaged less assists than Trey with the same amount of minutes. He deserves credit for not turning the ball over much, but his assists are unimpressive, and are mostly a result of his high usage rate and minutes, rather than being a great passer.

The point being, we can't just ignore player's weaknesses, disregard them and say that if we ignore them then player X is great, because that can be said about any player.

Would you be more happy if Burke was terrible at ball control, terrible at clutch shooting, and terrible and being a PG, but then good at defense and shooting percentages? We saw how that worked for Philly, they co-own the worst losing streak.

MCW is by no means terrible at being a PG. And you keep ignoring the fact that he plays with significantly lesser talent, and his front office was making his team lose as many games as possible.

The thing is, there are winning players, and losing players. Every player can get stats, but certain players just enable teams to win, whether or not they get the stats. Just like Marvin, his stats don't help us win, but he is a winning player on this team, without him we couldn't do it. Just like we couldn't win without Burke.

The Jazz won 25 games this season.

[MalonesElbows]

The 8-16' range is definitely his problem area. When he gets in this zone he usually is coming off a pick but is running too fast and can't stop on a dime and shoot like the more athletic guards can. We saw a lot of leaning bank attempts fail from this distance. His options are work on his floater, or bulk up some so he can get to the basket and finish through contact.