Rate the Players.

[laika]

Update in post #43.

Now that Williams is gone the Jazz have 9 players that matter. We are unlikely to make any other
meaningful trades/signings. How would you rank these 9 players in terms of future star/contributor potential?

1.Exum- Basing this purely on potential. Really have no idea, although everyone else on the Jazz
are unlikely to become stars.
2.Gobert- Most underrated player on the team. Posted exceptional defensive numbers last year.
3.Burks- Best scorer on the team. Improved a lot last year. Ridiculous that he wasn't starting by
the end of the year.
4.Favors- Somewhat disappointing, but still pretty young. Unlikely he'll ever be a true star.
5.Hayward- Will never be a star. Can pretty much guarantee his contract will hurt the Jazz.
6.Hood- Could be as good as Hayward in a couple years.
7.Kanter- Huge disappointment so far. Possibly the worst defender in the league last year. Kanter
and Favors can't shoot. You need a PF that can shoot in today's NBA. Need to trade him.
8.Burke- Very limited upside. We had better hope Exum can play PG.
9.Evans- Underrated. Needs to put on weight so we can play him some at PF.

This is why I am unhappy about the massive Hayward overpay. It significantly increases the chance we will lose one or two players that will be better than him. Of course these rankings can change a lot this year since they have never really all played together and are pretty young.

These are some of the statistics I looked at when deciding these rankings-
The number values are per 36 minutes. Defensive statistics are more subjective, but they give you
a reasonable idea of how good a defender someone is. OppPrd is the net individual production a
player allowed. "On" is how many points the opposing team scored when you were on the court. "Net" is how much better/worse the team was defensively when you were on vs off the court. Of course these numbers could be affected by your teammates, but since individual defensive numbers aren't that reliable these numbers can be useful. Also, the best or worst defender on the team is less likely to be affected by teammates.

------------Pts---Ast---Reb---Blk---3pt%--TS%--OppPrd---On-----Net
Gobert----8.6----.6--12.9---3.4-----0----51----11.1-----102.5-(-11.5)
Burks-----17.9---3.5---4.2----.2----35----55----15.3-----112.0--(-1.8)
Favors---15.9---1.5--10.4---1.8-----0----56----22.1-----113.9----2.5
Hayward-16.0---5.1---5.0----.5----30----52----13.9-----113.6----3.0
Kanter---16.6---1.3--10.1----.7-----0----52----23.0-----115.7----6.4
Burke----14.2---6.3---3.3----.1----33----47----18.0-----114.6----4.3
Evans----11.9---1.3---9.2---1.4-----0----55----16.4-----109.9--(-4.2)
Novak----11.9----.9---3.9----.3----43----60----14.8-----109.8----3.4

Offense- Burks is our best offensive player. Outside shooting is going to be a big problem this year. We have almost no 3 point shooting. Novak is a good 3 point shooter but he is too lousy to play anything but spot minutes.

Defense- It's hard to overstate how bad Kanter was on defense. We were the worst defensive team in the league last year and Kanter was easily our worst defender. One surprising thing was how bad Favors was on defense. He looked worse playing next to Kanter, but even adjusting for that you have to rate Favors as a below average defender. The one bright spot on defense was Gobert. He was exceptionally good, with some of the best defensive numbers in the league. He did play against worse competition, but Gobert definitely deserves more minutes and Kanter less.

[sipclip]

You are seriously underrating Kanter, Favors and Hayward. The fact that you have Burke and Gobert ahead of them is crazy. Kanter showed plenty of improvement from the outside last year and Favors is not even close to being a disappointment. Hayward is overpaid but he is a damn good player.

[laika]

You are seriously underrating Kanter, Favors and Hayward. The fact that you have Burke and Gobert ahead of them is crazy. Kanter showed plenty of improvement from the outside last year and Favors is not even close to being a disappointment. Hayward is overpaid but he is a damn good player.

I don't think I am. If you have any evidence that I'm wrong feel free to present it.

The statistical case that Kanter is a lousy player is overwhelming. Kanter did show some improvement last year. But the caveat is that he started the year as the worst player in the entire league. He managed to improve to below average by the end of the year. Even worse, we clearly have 3 Centers on our team and no PFs. Kanter has to go.

Favors and Hayward both have significant weaknesses and have played enough that large improvements are not likely.

[Inigo Montoya]

While I personally think highly of Kanter, I can understand why others aren't so high on him. Even so, calling him a lousy player is a big exaggeration and is doing him a great injustice.

[tleikheen]

You are seriously underrating Kanter, Favors and Hayward. The fact that you have Burke and Gobert ahead of them is crazy. Kanter showed plenty of improvement from the outside last year and Favors is not even close to being a disappointment. Hayward is overpaid but he is a damn good player.

Agree alot of it wasn't even worth reading ,which I didn't.
Kanter just turned 22 and has shown he's going to put the ball in the basket ALOT and at a %50 clip,and be a big rebounder.Favors is going to do the same,take your eyes off the stats and watch and recognize what your seeing.These guys were lacking a PG that could get them the ball where they were needed and they both showed their potential.
Coach Snyders offense and Exum being able to get up and down the court will open up the game more for Hayward.
Your rating seems to want to tear down the players and start over ,a draft and trade fanatic.

[laika]

You are seriously underrating Kanter, Favors and Hayward. The fact that you have Burke and Gobert ahead of them is crazy. Kanter showed plenty of improvement from the outside last year and Favors is not even close to being a disappointment. Hayward is overpaid but he is a damn good player.

Agree alot of it wasn't even worth reading ,which I didn't.
Kanter just turned 22 and has shown he's going to put the ball in the basket ALOT and at a %50 clip,and be a big rebounder.Favors is going to do the same,take your eyes off the stats and watch and recognize what your seeing.These guys were lacking a PG that could get them the ball where they were needed and they both showed their potential.
Coach Snyders offense and Exum being able to get up and down the court will open up the game more for Hayward.
Your rating seems to want to tear down the players and start over ,a draft and trade fanatic.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this. Favors and Kanter are almost the exact same player. Both are decent at scoring down low and getting rebounds. Neither are good defenders. Neither can shoot from outside AT ALL. However, the difference is that Favors is better than Kanter in every way.
Our team is weak at outside shooting at every position. In today's NBA it would be an unbelievably bad decision to play two centers rather than get a PF that can shoot.
This really isn't even debatable. Unless Kanter or Favors show a MASSIVE improvement in their outside shooting this year then it would be a horrific decision not to trade Kanter.
Also, it doesn't support your argument that you are completely misrepresenting my position. The only player I want to trade is Kanter. Everyone else I'm willing to keep and let develop.

[sipclip]

You are seriously underrating Kanter, Favors and Hayward. The fact that you have Burke and Gobert ahead of them is crazy. Kanter showed plenty of improvement from the outside last year and Favors is not even close to being a disappointment. Hayward is overpaid but he is a damn good player.

I don't think I am. If you have any evidence that I'm wrong feel free to present it.

The statistical case that Kanter is a lousy player is overwhelming. Kanter did show some improvement last year. But the caveat is that he started the year as the worst player in the entire league. He managed to improve to below average by the end of the year. Even worse, we clearly have 3 Centers on our team and no PFs. Kanter has to go.

Favors and Hayward both have significant weaknesses and have played enough that large improvements are not likely.

That is just nonsense. The fact that you think Kanter started the season as the worst player in the nba shows your agenda. The jazz got off to a horrible start last season but Kanter wasn't the reason. The reason is that we had absolutely no pg play and zero depth. Gradually we got Burke, Williams and Evans into the lineup along with picking up Garrett. Kanter was actually very good to start the season and then injured his ankle which slowed him down for a little while. Once his ankle got better he played really well for us off the bench.

Neither Favors or Hayward have significant weaknesses. Contrary to what you believe Favors is a very good defensive player that has continued to progress offensively. He is never going to be a superstar but he is going to end up being a 15pt, 11rb, 2blk a game big that provides elite defense.

Hayward doesn't do anything great but he also doesn't do anything bad. The doesn't really have a big weakness. I'm sure you are going to say that he is a horrible defender and a bad shooting but neither is the case. He is a solid defender and can definitely shoot the ball. I can't wait to see him paired with Exum getting a ton of open looks.

[Inigo Montoya]

I don't know how much clearer I can make this. Favors and Kanter are almost the exact same player. Both are decent at scoring down low and getting rebounds. Neither are good defenders. Neither can shoot from outside AT ALL.

I couldn't disagree more. Kanter and Favors are very different kind of players with very different games, strengths and weaknesses, and they get their points very differently. And saying that Favors isn't a good defender, or that Kanter can't shoot from outside at all....

[sipclip]

You are seriously underrating Kanter, Favors and Hayward. The fact that you have Burke and Gobert ahead of them is crazy. Kanter showed plenty of improvement from the outside last year and Favors is not even close to being a disappointment. Hayward is overpaid but he is a damn good player.

Agree alot of it wasn't even worth reading ,which I didn't.
Kanter just turned 22 and has shown he's going to put the ball in the basket ALOT and at a %50 clip,and be a big rebounder.Favors is going to do the same,take your eyes off the stats and watch and recognize what your seeing.These guys were lacking a PG that could get them the ball where they were needed and they both showed their potential.
Coach Snyders offense and Exum being able to get up and down the court will open up the game more for Hayward.
Your rating seems to want to tear down the players and start over ,a draft and trade fanatic.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this. Favors and Kanter are almost the exact same player. Both are decent at scoring down low and getting rebounds. Neither are good defenders. Neither can shoot from outside AT ALL. However, the difference is that Favors is better than Kanter in every way.
Our team is weak at outside shooting at every position. In today's NBA it would be an unbelievably bad decision to play two centers rather than get a PF that can shoot.
This really isn't even debatable. Unless Kanter or Favors show a MASSIVE improvement in their outside shooting this year then it would be a horrific decision not to trade Kanter.
Also, it doesn't support your argument that you are completely misrepresenting my position. The only player I want to trade is Kanter. Everyone else I'm willing to keep and let develop.

You either do not watch the jazz or your grasp of basketball is pretty much zero. Kanter and Favors are not even close to being the same player. Kanter also showed that he is more than capable of shooting from the outside and will continue to expand his range.

[sipclip]

I don't know how much clearer I can make this. Favors and Kanter are almost the exact same player. Both are decent at scoring down low and getting rebounds. Neither are good defenders. Neither can shoot from outside AT ALL.

I couldn't disagree more. Kanter and Favors are very different kind of players with very different games, strengths and weaknesses, and they get their points very differently. And saying that Favors isn't a good defender, or that Kanter can't shoot from outside at all....

It is almost like he never even watches the jazz play.

[CoachDMC]

I think we should go after Ed Davis.

[laika]

You guys do realize that they track this, right?

Kanter shoots 37.3% from outside of 10 feet. That is terrible.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.ht ... rID=202683

As for Kanter's horrific start, here is the thread I made about it-

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1292731

Kanter finished as the second worst regular player in the NBA, which is actually a lot better than the first half of the year when he was by far the worst.

http://www.82games.com/1314/ROLRTG8.HTM

[Luigi]

I'll take a shot at ranking them on value (not on how good they are today)

1. Exum

gap

2. Favors
3. Burks

gap

4. Kanter
5. Hayward
6. Gobert
7. Evans

Exum is a talent on another level. We've been hoping our guys are all star calibur players when none of them are, until Exum got here. I hope he makes it to his potential and gets into the all star game at some point

Favors is on a good deal, and he does things that NBA starters should do. He is a defensive center. There are many better than him. Howard, Gasol, Noah, Chandler, Bogut, Asik, Duncan, Hibbert half the time, Gortat. put him around Robin Lopez, Birdman, DeAndre Jordan level. That makes him an average NBA starter. He will get better, but I don't know if he'll crack top 5 centers in his career.

Burks has an NBA skill at getting to the rim. He shows potential to develop court vision and defense that would make him good. I also think he shows the most potential of everyone but Exum. We'll see if he can make it this year.

Kanter can get offensive rebounds. That's his only NBA level skill right now. He might turn into a low post scorer if he can learn to handle longer defenders. He is an undersized, but strong center.

Hayward is an average NBA starter, a lot like Favors. He's a jack of all trades, except for having terrible bottom sucking efficiency when he's a first option. His max deal, player option, and trade kicker make his value go down.

Gobert is exciting. But he is still a backup or third string center on a good team. He seems to be a hard worker, so maybe he'll be able to turn into something. He has shown that he can defend second units at an NBA level. His rookie deal makes him worth talking about. But he looks pretty much with his peers with second units. That's backup big man stuff.

Evans is also exciting. I think he could have developed into a defensive specialist. Instead it looks like he's been focusing on getting a short to mid range jumper instead. He's a backup or third string 4.



This means that everyone but Exum should be available in a trade for the right player. I'd like to keep Favors around, since it is tough to replace a defensive center on a good contract. I'd like to keep Burks since it is hard to find someone that can penetrate and score at his rate and efficiency (but I think he should stay a 6th man with the green light to shoot on second units). If we can get the right piece to play with Exum, I think we have to consider it.

[sipclip]

You guys do realize that they track this, right?

Kanter shoots 37.3% from outside of 10 feet. That is terrible.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.ht ... rID=202683

As for Kanter's horrific start, here is the thread I made about it-

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1292731

Kanter finished as the second worst regular player in the NBA, which is actually a lot better than the first half of the year when he was by far the worst.

http://www.82games.com/1314/ROLRTG8.HTM

So delusional. Actually watch the jazz play this season and then get back to me. By the way Kanter shot the same percentage from 16-23 feet this season as Pau Gasol. I guess you are going to tell me Gasol can't shoot from the outside at all either. Kanter is still a work in progress but your claims are just crazy.

[laika]

So delusional. Actually watch the jazz play this season and then get back to me. By the way Kanter shot the same percentage from 16-23 feet this season as Pau Gasol. I guess you are going to tell me Gasol can't shoot from the outside at all either. Kanter is still a work in progress but your claims are just crazy.

I fail to see how quoting actual facts vs random opinions is delusional. You are right that Gasol and Kanter shot the same from 16-23 feet. Gasol was significantly better from 10-16 though, which is where a C/PF is more likely to provide value.
Both are likely to be hurting their team by taking shots from that distance. You have to adjust for the marginal value of a shot, but you are running a pretty bad offense if 37% is as good as you can get in all but the worst situations.

[reapaman]

Ranking - Current Comparisons
1) Exum - Penny Hardaway
2) Burks - Corey Maggette
3) Favors - Emeka Okafor
4) Hood - Jalen Rose
5) Hayward - Mike Miller
6) Kanter - Al Jefferson
7) Burke - DJ Augustin
8) Gobert - Manute Bol

[Inigo Montoya]

Try to compare Kanter's outside shooting to Gasol in his 3rd year instead of just throwing it out there without context. This thread is what happens when people just throw around stats without watching guys play - they think Kanter and Favors "are almost the exact same player".

[goober]

What would be fun is guessing the 2k ratings of the Jazz roster for 2k15

[tleikheen]

This thread is what happens when people just throw around stats without watching guys play - they think Kanter and Favors "are almost the exact same player".

Some here Inigo are trade and draft fanatics.[url]Last years stats don't mean anything anymore.[/url]The philosophy that led to those stats are gone,replaced with a new philosophy,led by a younger more dynamic Coach in Snyder.
Corbin and the two (Williams,Jefferson) that benefited with his game philosophy are gone as well.
Young players grow up they get better,the Jazz crafted their team this way.Their choice of Coach was because they think like alot of fans here,that their young players are better and a year wiser,but need a direction more suited to their skillz.
The Jazz team is set and when most want to see and debate about what Exum will bring to a lineup of Kanter,Favors,Hayward,Burks,Burke ,Gobert,and Hood they still want to trade and dump the whole team minus one or two guys.
When I see the Jazz team above ,I think their not going to be anything like last years team.With the new offensive/defensive philosophy being brought in by Coach Snyder and the emphasis on defense and accountability,theirs going to be a whole new set of stats that are going to be different from last years stats.

[laika]

Try to compare Kanter's outside shooting to Gasol in his 3rd year instead of just throwing it out there without context. This thread is what happens when people just throw around stats without watching guys play - they think Kanter and Favors "are almost the exact same player".

They are very similar on offense. They get almost the same points/rebounds/assists per minute. Kanter shoots slightly more from outside but not much. Kanter is a slightly better outside shooter. Favors is a more efficient scorer, in part because he has the good sense not to take as many outside shots.

Favors-----% taken---shooting %
0-10 ft ----- 68.5 --- 60.3
10-16 ft----- 23.9 --- 37.6
16-23 ft ----- 7.6 --- 26.3

Kanter-----% taken---shooting %
0-10 ft ----- 61.7 --- 56.5
10-16 ft ----- 23.0 --- 37.8
16-23 ft ----- 15.3 --- 36.9

There isn't much point debating semantics though. I'll update this thread when the season starts, and we'll see how much the players have changed from last year.