Top 25 Jazz players list: #1 spot

[Joao Saraiva]

So far:
2 votes for Karl Malone - Stocktonshorts, FJS, HawaiianJazzFan
1 vote for Stockton - Matt13

idajazz and dry fly, can I assume you vote for Malone too?

[Joao Saraiva]

I love stockton but my vote goes for Malone.

Can you elaborate the reasoning behind Malone > Stockton?

[pickIBL]

Malone number 1. Stockton two. And I wonder how high Rudy Gobert gets on this list.... next season.

[FJS]

My vote goes to John Stockton.

I like them both equally, but always liked Malone a little more. Anyone worthy enough to vote doesn't need to look at a list of accomplishments between the 2 to decide, I decided a long time ago.

But for the sake of arguement, were not talking about best player of all time, were talking about the Best Jazz Player. 1 fact that I think gives Stockton edge, is fact he didn't bail on us and go to Lakers. John Stockon is easily the best player to ever play his position. Malone is to blame for no trophies, not Stockton. Stockton is the reason Jazz became a Finals player, he is the one who shot the shot.

Obviously Malone hangs higher on the list of best players to ever play the game, but I just feel Stockton represents Jazz more than Karl.

I think Magic was the best pg ever. You have an argument with Karl if you think Duncan is a C (which he is, and he played almost every year).
Stockton made the shot.... but Karl was the MVP. It's like say with all the difference that Kerr or Horry won some tittles due to they shot the last shots... I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

[JazzMatt13]

It is hard to pick individual players from Jazz history, I rather pick best 5 man line ups. Because obviously Malone and Stockton were greatest players in our history, along with Eaton, Griffith, Maravich and Dantley all having some kind #1 (or only one to have) in 1 category of the other. Like ROTY, all-time bpg or popularity points for style plus greatest NCAAB player.

I have honestly never really considered 1 better than the other. They are like the yin and yang.

I just wish we had better context for the list. Because if were just talking about some elitist list for the most dominate players, listing the players who are the most accomplished, Malone takes the cake, they gave him the MVP's not Stockton. I don't know, when think who are the Jazz, who is the most "jazz", I think of Stockton. I think I have more pride in Stockton, even if I always liked Malone more.

[JazzMatt13]

I don't know, after watching some high lights of the past, and getting even sadder we didn't win a title, it is actually quite a shot in the arm to actually watch how dominate Malone was, and how he was basically a 1 man wrecking crew. All Stockton had to do was get him the ball, and it was all over. If only Jazz had a real defensive center and quality defenders on MJ.

I think the pinnacle of my happiness is Stockton's shot to make finals, than my pinnacle of sadness only to come weeks later. However Game 3 has to be the equal to, or 2nd than to that shot Stockton made. I don't even like talking about 97 playoffs. We were like undefeated in playoffs on home games, only to lose the game 5, giving them the 3-2 lead going into game 6 on their home floor, I am pretty sure a little part of me died that day.

Game 3 Malone Highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkRdA87taBE

[Joao Saraiva]

Our best playoff performer:
1988 - Stockton
1989 - Stockton
1990 - Malone
1991 - Stockton
1992 - Malone (Malone's best post season ever. Elite scoring, rebounding and efficiency in every series!)

1993 - Stockton - Malone dropped his raw scoring, efficiency, turned the ball over more than Stockton... Malone has a negative ORTG/DRTG (101/105) while Stockton has a much better one (115/108).

1994 - Malone - without a doubt our best player in every series. Against the Rockets in the WCF both him and Stockton were inefficient, but even then Malone was more efficient than John.

1995 - Malone - he was superb against Houston, scoring, rebounding, assisting, defending... Stockton was not bad, but he was not close to Karl Malone. This time it was Stockton who had a negative ORTG/DRTG relation.

1996 - Malone (between the two of them). They both had their moments and then failed big time against the Sonics. I give the edge to Malone simply because at this point he had a much bigger role than Stockton. Stockton did fine in the 1st two series, and then collapsed against the Sonics. Malone didn't do great in the 1st round or any other series, but the gap between him and Stockton in terms of raw production was to big to ignore. Jeff Hornacek actually has a case as our best playoff performer in 96.

1997 - Stockton - Karl Malone's efficiency was terrible after the 1st round against LAC. Stockton has much better ORTG/DRTG numbers (specially ORTG) and an awesome production with his assists. His scoring was solid too, and he had the best series by a large margin in the WCF against the Rockets (the most historic moment of our franchise so far) and against the Bulls.

1998 - Malone - 3 very good series. In the finals he didn't start so well but his game 5 and 6 were absolutely epic. Specially game 5! After game 2 I think he played well every game. He was also very good against the Lakers when we swept the big fella out of the playoffs. Only against the Spurs Malone played bad (1st round was very good from him also). It's Karl here and it's not even close.

1999 - Malone - none of them was actually great

2000 - Malone - by a fair margin. After a great 1st round form both of them, both played bad against Portland.

2001 - Stockton. His playmaking was awesome against Dallas, and Malone was below 50%ts for the sieres. Stockton's ORTG/DRTG relation is fantastic, while Malone is at 97/107.

2002 - Stockton. Another great ORTG/DRTG correlation for him (122/98) against a negative one for Malone (99/100). Malone scored 20 PPG on 46.9ts%, while Stockton scored 12.5 PPG on 54.7ts% to go along with 10 APG. Malone also turned the ball more times in that series than Stockton.

2003 - I won't give an edge to any of them here. Malone was really inefficient, Stockton's raw production is too low for me to give him an edge over Malone.

From the moment they became stars until they retired:
- Stockton outplayed Karl Malone 7 times in playoff time;
- Malone outplayed Stockton 8 times in playoff time.

I'd say they were close as playoff performers.

In the regular season Malone beasted all the way, and he was a 2 time MVP for us. That has to have some weight. However I can't ignore Stockton's 9 seasons leading in APG, and with absolute historic numbers (14.5 APG, 14.2 APG, 13.8 APG seasons...). Stockton APG numbers are legendary, and he has also a ton of longevity.

[Joao Saraiva]

After all this, my vote goes to Karl Malone, but I think the margin is much smaller than most people believe. What made me decide was the MVP awards he won, and the playoff performances in most of our deepest runs (92, 94, 96 and 98).

[Joao Saraiva]

I don't know, after watching some high lights of the past, and getting even sadder we didn't win a title, it is actually quite a shot in the arm to actually watch how dominate Malone was, and how he was basically a 1 man wrecking crew. All Stockton had to do was get him the ball, and it was all over. If only Jazz had a real defensive center and quality defenders on MJ.

I think the pinnacle of my happiness is Stockton's shot to make finals, than my pinnacle of sadness only to come weeks later. However Game 3 has to be the equal to, or 2nd than to that shot Stockton made. I don't even like talking about 97 playoffs. We were like undefeated in playoffs on home games, only to lose the game 5, giving them the 3-2 lead going into game 6 on their home floor, I am pretty sure a little part of me died that day.

Game 3 Malone Highlights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkRdA87taBE

For me the saddest moment was game 6 of the 98 finals. Pippen injured, we had game 7 at home and we blew it... winning by 3 with so little time to go.

With had backourt problems because Stockton and Hornacek gave too much height away to Harper and MJ. And we couldn't put any of them with Pippen to go with Russell on MJ (even tough we did) because Hornacek couldn't defend Pippen too.

Game 6 also has that 5 point swing (Eisley 3 pointer and Harper's basket after the buzzer) that I'll never forget...

The Bulls were a bad matchup for us, but I think we were closer to beating them in 98 and in 97. Oh well, those are still two incredible seasons I will always remember.

[Joao Saraiva]

My vote goes to John Stockton.

I like them both equally, but always liked Malone a little more. Anyone worthy enough to vote doesn't need to look at a list of accomplishments between the 2 to decide, I decided a long time ago.

But for the sake of arguement, were not talking about best player of all time, were talking about the Best Jazz Player. 1 fact that I think gives Stockton edge, is fact he didn't bail on us and go to Lakers. John Stockon is easily the best player to ever play his position. Malone is to blame for no trophies, not Stockton. Stockton is the reason Jazz became a Finals player, he is the one who shot the shot.

Obviously Malone hangs higher on the list of best players to ever play the game, but I just feel Stockton represents Jazz more than Karl.

I think Magic was the best pg ever. You have an argument with Karl if you think Duncan is a C (which he is, and he played almost every year).
Stockton made the shot.... but Karl was the MVP. It's like say with all the difference that Kerr or Horry won some tittles due to they shot the last shots... I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

Stockton outplayed Malone 7 times in the playoffs. We aren't talking about a Horry or Kerr role here (who were excelent role players). Stockton is the PG with the most APG in one season (a record he would hold even if we take away his best!) and with most 10+ APG seasons in the history of the NBA. He was also a 20 PPG scorer in his peak, at great efficiency. A great stealer (lead the league twice) and he has an absurd amount of longevity too.

[Winglish]

I guess Malone. It's not really fair to give credit to one without the other.

Malone still led the Jazz to a highly successful season the year Stockton broke his leg. He proved to me that he could carry a team without Stockton when he had to.

[Joao Saraiva]

So far:
6 votes for Karl Malone - Stocktonshorts, FJS, HawaiianJazzFan, pickIBL, Joao Saraiva, idajazz, dry fly (I'll assume you guys all voted for Karl Malone, even tough you didn't clearly say it).
1 vote for Stockton - Matt13


I think it's a lock for Karl Malone. I'm a bit disappointed on the thread, I expected much deeper analysis here, like what happens in the PC board, and not the amount of posts we had like "It's Malone and it's not debatable" or "this is Malone, Stockton is #2".

I would like you guys to give us some reasoning when you make the vote. After all, why was Malone better than Stockton in your view?

I'll start the #2 thread tomorrow.

[goober]

I'd honestly say 1a. Malone 1b. Stockton

[Joao Saraiva]

I'd honestly say 1a. Malone 1b. Stockton

And what makes Malone 1a and Stockton 1b and not the opposite?

[idajazz]

Malone. but it is so close.............. Stock is my all time favorite.

[JazzMatt13]

I think everyone can admit they always liked Malone a little more.

[Joao Saraiva]

I think everyone can admit they always liked Malone a little more.

I liked him and Stockton the same way. They're two of the main reasons I started rooting for Utah, so I'll always like them both!

I relate a bit more to Stockton, since I'm short and when I play basketball I play in the perimeter

[bucephalus]

So far:
6 votes for Karl Malone - Stocktonshorts, FJS, HawaiianJazzFan, pickIBL, Joao Saraiva, idajazz, dry fly (I'll assume you guys all voted for Karl Malone, even tough you didn't clearly say it).
1 vote for Stockton - Matt13


I think it's a lock for Karl Malone. I'm a bit disappointed on the thread, I expected much deeper analysis here, like what happens in the PC board, and not the amount of posts we had like "It's Malone and it's not debatable" or "this is Malone, Stockton is #2".

I would like you guys to give us some reasoning when you make the vote. After all, why was Malone better than Stockton in your view?

I'll start the #2 thread tomorrow.

The Stockton/Malone debate is a lot more interesting than we delved into here, and unless you think there are a bunch of huge Maravich fans around here you might as well go ahead and skip to #3. Not that it matters, but my vote goes to Malone. He was a consistent scorer/rebounder and a number one option. He retired as possibly the best player ever at his position (by which I mean at the time he retired), which you could not say for Stockton. Stockton possibly lucked out at the end of his career with the demise of a large number of top pgs but he was still a fantastic player who played at a high level his entire career. Malone gets a lot of hate for not being clutch, but the Jazz wouldn't have even been in situations for his lack of clutchness to be a factor if he hadn't helped take them there. He also has a top-five Jazz nickname (The Mailman: you could take me into it being first but I personally prefer Pistol Pete). He brought a lot of flair to the Jazz. Yes, he left the Jazz to chase a ring with LA, but his coming back to help tutor some of the bigs shows that he remains a Jazzman at heart. Karl Malone: the best player in Jazz history.

[Joao Saraiva]

So far:
6 votes for Karl Malone - Stocktonshorts, FJS, HawaiianJazzFan, pickIBL, Joao Saraiva, idajazz, dry fly (I'll assume you guys all voted for Karl Malone, even tough you didn't clearly say it).
1 vote for Stockton - Matt13


I think it's a lock for Karl Malone. I'm a bit disappointed on the thread, I expected much deeper analysis here, like what happens in the PC board, and not the amount of posts we had like "It's Malone and it's not debatable" or "this is Malone, Stockton is #2".

I would like you guys to give us some reasoning when you make the vote. After all, why was Malone better than Stockton in your view?

I'll start the #2 thread tomorrow.

The Stockton/Malone debate is a lot more interesting than we delved into here, and unless you think there are a bunch of huge Maravich fans around here you might as well go ahead and skip to #3. Not that it matters, but my vote goes to Malone. He was a consistent scorer/rebounder and a number one option. He retired as possibly the best player ever at his position (by which I mean at the time he retired), which you could not say for Stockton. Stockton possibly lucked out at the end of his career with the demise of a large number of top pgs but he was still a fantastic player who played at a high level his entire career. Malone gets a lot of hate for not being clutch, but the Jazz wouldn't have even been in situations for his lack of clutchness to be a factor if he hadn't helped take them there. He also has a top-five Jazz nickname (The Mailman: you could take me into it being first but I personally prefer Pistol Pete). He brought a lot of flair to the Jazz. Yes, he left the Jazz to chase a ring with LA, but his coming back to help tutor some of the bigs shows that he remains a Jazzman at heart. Karl Malone: the best player in Jazz history.

Nice post. And yes I agree it could be a lot more interesting.

I tried to provide some food for thought, but no one really picked it up... so I also got a bit demotivated as the thread went on.

About the #2 spot I think Pete has no chance at it. At #4 I can see a good debate going on between Pete and Dantley. I would also like to see if D-Will gets some votes there.

[BudTugly]

IMO the only reason there is debate is how much more likable Stockton is. Karl is just a weird dude.