Hayward Contract Options

pickIBL · Post #21 » by **pickIBL** » Mon May 15, 2017 9:45 pm

So if he wants to play in boston on a max 4 + player option it's a sign and trade. I hope he stays but if he doesn't i expect jaylen brown coming back. If the FO pulls that i don't fault them

stitches · Post #22 » by **stitches** » Tue May 16, 2017 5:38 am

Sign and trades pretty much never happen anymore. Especially with the top free agents. The incentive structure has shifted to a point where it doesn't make sense to do sign and trades. There is no incentive for Boston to do it. And with the return S&Ts usually get(not Brown level prospects for sure), it usually doesn't make sense for the other team either.

Post #23 » by **Inigo Montoya** » Fri Jun 9, 2017 4:56 pm

Don't know how much credibility this piece of news has, but it says that the Jazz are just as concerned of Hayward going to the Heat as they are of him going to the Celtics. Weird, I didn't really think of the Heat as a serious option, given the Jazz and Celtics' superior competitive position.

Not that I think it matters much. They Jazz are worried about Hayward leaving, period. If he leaves, I don't think it'll matter much to the Jazz where he goes to in the grand scheme of things--the end results will be bad regardless.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246199/Heat-Considered-As-Likely-To-Sign-Gordon-Hayward-As-Celtics

stitches · Post #24 » by **stitches** » Fri Jun 9, 2017 5:42 pm

Miami can offer Hayward the opportunity to play with Hassan Whiteside and Goran Dragic within their established culture of winning.

I bet he can't wait to play with Dion Waiters and Hassan Whiteside. :lol:

KqWIN · Post #25 » by **KqWIN** » Fri Jun 9, 2017 5:56 pm

pickIBL wrote:So if he wants to play in boston on a max 4 + player option it's a sign and trade. I hope he stays but if he doesn't i expect jaylen brown coming back. If the FO pulls that i don't fault them

You can't do 5 years and a sign and trade I don't know how many times we have to tell you this. The Celtics will not do a sign and trade with the Jazz. There is no reason for them to do that and they have incentive not to.

KqWIN · Post #26 » by **KqWIN** » Fri Jun 9, 2017 6:01 pm

stitches wrote:
Miami can offer Hayward the opportunity to play with Hassan Whiteside and Goran Dragic within their established culture of winning.

I bet he can't wait to play with Dion Waiters and Hassan Whiteside.

If the Heat are as likely to sign Hayward as the Celtics, we are in great shape!

Here's how I have the percentages:

50% - Utah
49% - Boston
1% - Other

SoCalJazzFan · Post #27 » by **SoCalJazzFan** » Fri Jun 9, 2017 8:14 pm

Well, one way to look at the Miami situation is that they have Dragic, who will most likely be better than any PG the Jazz have if Hill signs somewhere else, and Whiteside who is the closest comp to Rudy in the league. Plus, he and Mrs. Hayward get to live in Miami instead of Utah during the winter and pay no income tax.
How does Bosh's amnestied contract play into their cap and tax?

Winglish · Post #28 » by **Winglish** » Fri Jun 9, 2017 11:45 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:Don't know how much credibility this piece of news has, but it says that the Jazz are just as concerned of Hayward going to the Heat as they are of him going to the Celtics. Weird, I didn't really think of the Heat as a serious option, given the Jazz and Celtics' superior competitive position.

Not that I think it matters much. They Jazz are worried about Hayward leaving, period. If he leaves, I don't think it'll matter much to the Jazz where he goes to in the grand scheme of things--the end results will be bad regardless.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246199/Heat-Considered-As-Likely-To-Sign-Gordon-Hayward-As-Celtics

So Gordon can be paid $46 million more by signing with the Utah Jazz...Yeah, Gordo will be a Jazz man for life. 8-)

stitches · Post #29 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:49 am

Whiteside is the closest comp to Rudy the same way Rudy Gay is the closest comp to LeBron.

AingesBurner · Post #30 » by **AingesBurner** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:55 am

stitches wrote:Whiteside is the closest comp to Rudy the same way Rudy Gay is the closest comp to LeBron.

Hahahaha perfect comp.

stitches · Post #31 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:04 am

Read on Twitter

AingesBurner · Post #32 » by **AingesBurner** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:07 am

stitches wrote:

Read on Twitter

I hate we have to wait this long.

ConstableGeneva · Post #33 » by **ConstableGeneva** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:58 am

KqWIN wrote:
pickIBL wrote:So if he wants to play in boston on a max 4 + player option it's a sign and trade. I hope he stays but if he doesn't i expect jaylen brown coming back. If the FO pulls that i don't fault them

You can't do 5 years and a sign and trade I don't know how many times we have to tell you this. The Celtics will not do a sign and trade with the Jazz. There is no reason for them to do that and they have incentive not to.

We might have a reason to. It's more beneficial if the Celtics can pull off a S&T (even if we lose a couple of minor assets/players in the process). Theoretically, we could trade for another star on draft night OR sign another FA into portion of the cap space, then trade for a signed Hayward afterwards and go over the cap. We also wouldn't have to renounce Olynyk to open up a slot for a max player. The Celtics would be hard-capped but it wouldn't be a big deal.

I'm no capologist but if that's legal and if the Celtics wanted two difference makers added on the roster, it's one avenue they should explore.

ConstableGeneva · Post #34 » by **ConstableGeneva** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:03 am

Winglish wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:Don't know how much credibility this piece of news has, but it says that the Jazz are just as concerned of Hayward going to the Heat as they are of him going to the Celtics. Weird, I didn't really think of the Heat as a serious option, given the Jazz and Celtics' superior competitive position.

Not that I think it matters much. They Jazz are worried about Hayward leaving, period. If he leaves, I don't think it'll matter much to the Jazz where he goes to in the grand scheme of things--the end results will be bad regardless.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246199/Heat-Considered-As-Likely-To-Sign-Gordon-Hayward-As-Celtics

So Gordon can be paid $46 million more by signing with the Utah Jazz...Yeah, Gordo will be a Jazz man for life.

From a Miami Heat cap expert:

Scenario 3: Hayward Signs a Long-Term Deal With the Jazz, With Next Contract in Mind and Without the Super-Max
...

Scenario 4: Hayward Signs a Long-Term Deal With Another Team
...

There’s not a huge difference between Scenarios 3 and 4 – less than $2.8 million, in fact, over the course of eight years. And in either case, Hayward would become a free agent as a 14-year veteran in the summer of 2024, at age 34. Under the league’s new Over-38 rules, he’d again be eligible to sign an up to four-year max contract.

Which could present a murky problem for the Jazz: If a super-max deal is off the table, what Hayward might want isn’t significantly different whether he signs it with the Jazz or any other NBA team. Which could, in turn, cause him to test the free agent market in search of an opportunity that gives him a better chance to win.

stitches · Post #35 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:09 am

CrowderKeg wrote:
Winglish wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:Don't know how much credibility this piece of news has, but it says that the Jazz are just as concerned of Hayward going to the Heat as they are of him going to the Celtics. Weird, I didn't really think of the Heat as a serious option, given the Jazz and Celtics' superior competitive position.

Not that I think it matters much. They Jazz are worried about Hayward leaving, period. If he leaves, I don't think it'll matter much to the Jazz where he goes to in the grand scheme of things--the end results will be bad regardless.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246199/Heat-Considered-As-Likely-To-Sign-Gordon-Hayward-As-Celtics

So Gordon can be paid $46 million more by signing with the Utah Jazz...Yeah, Gordo will be a Jazz man for life.

From a Miami Heat cap expert:
Scenario 3: Hayward Signs a Long-Term Deal With the Jazz, With Next Contract in Mind and Without the Super-Max
...

Scenario 4: Hayward Signs a Long-Term Deal With Another Team
...

There’s not a huge difference between Scenarios 3 and 4 – less than $2.8 million, in fact, over the course of eight years. And in either case, Hayward would become a free agent as a 14-year veteran in the summer of 2024, at age 34. Under the league’s new Over-38 rules, he’d again be eligible to sign an up to four-year max contract.

Which could present a murky problem for the Jazz: If a super-max deal is off the table, what Hayward might want isn’t significantly different whether he signs it with the Jazz or any other NBA team. Which could, in turn, cause him to test the free agent market in search of an opportunity that gives him a better chance to win.

it's funny to me how people assume 40M guaranteed is not a big deal. There are 4 years for Hayward to suffer a serious injury, or serious drop of form that would make him not get the 40+M he would get in the 5th year that the Jazz can guaranteed him now. The problem for the Jazz is not that we don't have big enough advantage of what we can offer money wise - we actually do, the bigger problem is that the money is probably not the main driving force for Hayward.

stitches · Post #36 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:16 am

CrowderKeg wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
pickIBL wrote:So if he wants to play in boston on a max 4 + player option it's a sign and trade. I hope he stays but if he doesn't i expect jaylen brown coming back. If the FO pulls that i don't fault them

You can't do 5 years and a sign and trade I don't know how many times we have to tell you this. The Celtics will not do a sign and trade with the Jazz. There is no reason for them to do that and they have incentive not to.

We might have a reason to. It's more beneficial if the Celtics can pull off a S&T (even if we lose a couple of minor assets/players in the process). Theoretically, we could trade for another star on draft night OR sign another FA into portion of the cap space, then trade for a signed Hayward afterwards and go over the cap. We also wouldn't have to renounce Olynyk to open up a slot for a max player. The Celtics would be hard-capped but it wouldn't be a big deal.

I'm no capologist but if that's legal and if the Celtics wanted two difference makers added on the roster, it's one avenue they should explore.

So what would be Boston's offer?

ConstableGeneva · Post #37 » by **ConstableGeneva** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:26 am

stitches wrote:
CrowderKeg wrote:
KqWIN wrote:
You can't do 5 years and a sign and trade I don't know how many times we have to tell you this. The Celtics will not do a sign and trade with the Jazz. There is no reason for them to do that and they have incentive not to.

We might have a reason to. It's more beneficial if the Celtics can pull off a S&T (even if we lose a couple of minor assets/players in the process). Theoretically, we could trade for another star on draft night OR sign another FA into portion of the cap space, then trade for a signed Hayward afterwards and go over the cap. We also wouldn't have to renounce Olynyk to open up a slot for a max player. The Celtics would be hard-capped but it wouldn't be a big deal.

I'm no capologist but if that's legal and if the Celtics wanted two difference makers added on the roster, it's one avenue they should explore.

So what would be Boston's offer?

Max? Probably Bradley, a future non-Brooklyn 1st, Zeller's N/G contract as filler (to be waived), signed Jerebko/Johnson (for salary matching) and one of the end-of-bench young dudes.

My bad about the option of draft night trade. It can't be. It has to be after Hayward agrees to sign with the Cs. The trade could be agreed upon on draft night though. The order of operations is important. It's a very unlikely scenario.

We still need to maintain the cap space just in case Hayward/Jazz don't agree to a S&T.

stitches · Post #38 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:34 am

CrowderKeg wrote:Max? Probably Bradley, a future non-Brooklyn 1st, Zeller's N/G contract as filler (to be waived), signed Jerebko/Johnson (for salary matching) and one of the end-of-bench young dudes.

My bad about the option of draft night trade. It can't be. It has to be after Hayward agrees to sign with the Cs. The trade could be agreed upon on draft night though. The order of operations is important. It's a very unlikely scenario.

We still need to maintain the cap space just in case Hayward/Jazz don't agree to a S&T.

In other words - 1 year rental of Bradley, trash first, signing 4th-5th big to trash contracts just so we match salaries. How will that be enticing for the Jazz exactly? The capspace will be for certain more valuable to the Jazz than first + trash contract to Johnson/Jerebko.

ConstableGeneva · Post #39 » by **ConstableGeneva** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:40 am

stitches wrote:
CrowderKeg wrote:Max? Probably Bradley, a future non-Brooklyn 1st, Zeller's N/G contract as filler (to be waived), signed Jerebko/Johnson (for salary matching) and one of the end-of-bench young dudes.

My bad about the option of draft night trade. It can't be. It has to be after Hayward agrees to sign with the Cs. The trade could be agreed upon on draft night though. The order of operations is important. It's a very unlikely scenario.

We still need to maintain the cap space just in case Hayward/Jazz don't agree to a S&T.

In other words - 1 year rental of Bradley, trash first, signing 4th-5th big to trash contracts just so we match salaries. How will that be enticing for the Jazz exactly? The capspace will probably be more valuable to the Jazz than first + trash contract to Johnson/Jerebko.

Then if Jazz turn it down but Gordon still wants to go to Boston, Celtics just sign Hayward outright. We were gonna lose either KO or Bradley anyway. S&T would have given us added flexibility but if it can't be worked out, it can't be worked out. I'm not even confident we're landing one of the top FAs this offseason, but it really seemed like our FO was gearing towards going after one of Hayward/Griffin. It's just all empty talk and exploring possible options atm.

EDIT: Signed KO instead of Bradley would be a possibility too I suppose.

stitches · Post #40 » by **stitches** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:43 am

CrowderKeg wrote:Then if Jazz turn it down but Gordon still wants to go to Boston, Celtics just sign Hayward outright. We were gonna lose either KO or Bradley anyway. S&T would have given us added flexibility but if it can't be worked out, it can't be worked out. I'm not even confident we're landing one of the top FAs this offseason, but it really seemed like our FO was gearing towards going after one of Hayward/Griffin. It's just all empty talk and exploring possible options atm.

EDIT: Signed KO instead of Bradley would be a possibility too I suppose.

Here's the calculation: Hayward gets 30.3M. To match salaries Celtics need to send back at least 24.25M back. Bradley is at 8.8. So we need to sign Amir Johnson to multi-year 15+M contract? HELL NO! WHY? Even if it's KO - it's still signing a back up for 15+M. I have no idea why anyone would do that.