Thunder sign Butler

[spearsy23]

. Best case for this guy is what? You put him on his own team and he is a role playing jump shooting 2 guard with solid defense, yes? Probably 20ppg, 4reb 3ast B+ defense, yes? Okay, if we can go ahead and get that now without waiting for Lamb to develop into that, if he can develop into that, why dont we take that option?

You just described a guy who would be the third best sg in the league. Who are we trading for that can already do that? The only reasonable answer is Afflalo and he's making 7.5 million dollars and only looks like a viable option because he's the only good player on a **** team. Perkins has a role on this team so we'd be worse off adding him into a trade, we'd lose out on Thabo and we'd have a marginal sg for a couple of years. If we traded pj3, Lamb and some salary for AA would I hate it? No, but if Lamb can give you as much why give up assets and cap space?

[Podirk]

Jackson couldn't' even bring the ball up the court after Maynor got injured. So we signed Fish.

Point being Lamb is fine. He has struggled and has got inconsistent min because of it. The ONE THING that Lamb needed to focus on IMO, and to the usual Thunder speak, was his Defense. He still needs to improve but is much better then last year.
Lamb also needs to work on his spot shooting, when he is coming off a screen or dribbling and pulling up..it seems to go in more often then his stand still.

If Caron Fish and Thabo can pass off some IQ to Lamb, Robes, and Jones...

[Smirkin Dirk]

I dont have the stats to back me up, but mid post isos for Butler is not a good offense.

[Bravenewworld]

You just described a guy who would be the third best sg in the league. Who are we trading for that can already do that? The only reasonable answer is Afflalo and he's making 7.5 million dollars and only looks like a viable option because he's the only good player on a **** team. Perkins has a role on this team so we'd be worse off adding him into a trade, we'd lose out on Thabo and we'd have a marginal sg for a couple of years. If we traded pj3, Lamb and some salary for AA would I hate it? No, but if Lamb can give you as much why give up assets and cap space?

Affalo. We have a legit shot at him for the price of Lamb and a 2014 first, we dont need to add any more to that as we have plenty of exemption options to use. His stats are inflated because he is on a team with one other option, this is going to be the case with any player that can score. The fact that he has done it consistently, fairly high efficiency and is a lock down defender means he is just what we want. And we dont have to take the risk of Lamb developing into a par player or not.

I like Lamb, when he is on he is very impressive for a young player. His shooting inconsistencies are horrific though. He's done well over the past month or so, but look at his game to games before that, theyre just horrific. 1-6. 2-8, 4-11, 1-7, 1-4, 3-12.
There is something about him that gives me the taste of JR Smith and i would not want that guy on my team even if my only other option was Angelia Basset. If you look in the dictionary under 'Inconsistent' there is a picture of Smith. He never became consistent in any way and Lamb seems to be following that. Even the improvement he has had ive been leery of because he had a similar end of year improvement last season, but it never carried over. So are we doing an Aeon Flux thing here? Is Lamb dying after every season and coming back the next, just to learn things over again? I dont like it, it does not spell a good NBA player when we see those trends.

[bondom34]

A few things turn me away from Afflalo though.
1. Not a good defender.
2. This is essentially his career season, and the idea of buying high on value isn't usually great especially when giving up young talent.
3. Orlando most likely wants a PG in return (at least every time something was posted on the trade board they did as they view Oladipo as a SG). Again, that isn't necessarily my opinion, but if you ask the trade board posters, its the thought there.
4. He's regressed a decent amount from the beginning of the season when he was putting up bigger numbers, hence this entire thread on the Magic board:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1309278

[spearsy23]

Afflalo is not the guy he pretended to be for the first two months of the season. He's an overrated defender and a career 13 PER guy playing sg. He is an upgrade but he isn't a significant upgrade. I wouldn't give up on a 21 year old whose playing style fits at worst and could be a top 5 sg at best for the opportunity to pay a marginal player and go into the tax. I don't *think* Presti would either.

Now if PJIII and a draft pick gets it done I wouldn't be too opposed, assuming we end up with the Dallas pick.

[laika]

Unless Brooks realizes what a massive mistake it is to play him then it will most likely cost you your season.

This is possibly one of the dumbest things ive ever seen on these boards.

Reggie Jackson just saved your season and Butler has been completely worthless so far.
Things could change, but after 4 games it's looking like you're the idiot.

[spearsy23]

Unless Brooks realizes what a massive mistake it is to play him then it will most likely cost you your season.

This is possibly one of the dumbest things ive ever seen on these boards.

Reggie Jackson just saved your season and Butler has been completely worthless so far.
Things could change, but after 4 games it's looking like you're the idiot.

Huh? He's 2/6 on threes going into tonight.... You realize that's basically exactly what we expected and wanted, right? You seem to think he was supposed to be a major contributor. He wasn't. We brought him in to play defense and shoot open threes.

Edit: tonight 2/4 from three, shooting 40% from three for the playoffs.

[Bravenewworld]

Unless Brooks realizes what a massive mistake it is to play him then it will most likely cost you your season.

This is possibly one of the dumbest things ive ever seen on these boards.

Reggie Jackson just saved your season and Butler has been completely worthless so far.
Things could change, but after 4 games it's looking like you're the idiot.

I don't know how you have connected these two players, what they do/have done and what we expect from them.
The things i expect from Reggie Jackson are far more different then what i expect out of Butler and vice versa.

Im not sure what you were thinking we viewed Butler as, but it was definitely not a savior or high performance player. It was simply as a vet without a title who is experienced and can still produce solid numbers.
I expect Reggie Jackson to be able to take over a game or two throughout the play-offs. I dont expect this of Butler at all. Im more then happy when this guy gets 10-14 with decent shooting.

[Bravenewworld]

A few things turn me away from Afflalo though.
1. Not a good defender.
2. This is essentially his career season, and the idea of buying high on value isn't usually great especially when giving up young talent.
3. Orlando most likely wants a PG in return (at least every time something was posted on the trade board they did as they view Oladipo as a SG). Again, that isn't necessarily my opinion, but if you ask the trade board posters, its the thought there.
4. He's regressed a decent amount from the beginning of the season when he was putting up bigger numbers, hence this entire thread on the Magic board:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1309278

Its really worth considering that this Orlando teams has been intentionally tanking this season. They have been playing centers and points and points as centers in an attempt to disrupt their own defense to do worse.
One can also chalk these things up to playing for a bad team. We see this all the time in the NBA, where a player gets tired of knowing they are not going to win. And we look at AA's previous seasons and part of this year and yes we can determine he is a more then capable defender (at least one who would be great for OKC to work with) and has the ability to score. Which is all we need.
Actually... **** memphis man, we may need to figure out a low post situation before anything else.

[laika]

The reason they're connected is because in the regular season Brooks was playing Butler at SG when he should have been playing Jackson there instead. He's switched to a small lineup in the playoffs, but Butler is still going to hurt you because you should be playing Collison instead of Butler. As for contributing, PER shows that Butler has been all but worthless. Defensive stats are harder to measure, but he hasn't been good there either. You probably aren't good enough to win a title with Butler playing significant minutes. You will have to play your best lineup, something that Brooks seems to be completely incapable of doing. He's played literally every other lineup this year except for your best one- Westbrook/Jackson/Durant/Ibaka/Collison.

PER through 4 games-

1.Kevin Durant-------21.1
2.Serge Ibaka--------19.7
3.Reggie Jackson----19.6
4.Russell Westbrook-16.7
5.Derek Fisher-------12.9
6.Nick Collison-------12.5
7.Thabo Sefolosha----9.7
8.Kendrick Perkins----7.7
9.Caron Butler---------3.1
10.Steven Adams----(-3.3)

[spearsy23]

The reason they're connected is because in the regular season Brooks was playing Butler at SG when he should have been playing Jackson there instead. He's switched to a small lineup in the playoffs, but Butler is still going to hurt you because you should be playing Collison instead of Butler. As for contributing, PER shows that Butler has been all but worthless. Defensive stats are harder to measure, but he hasn't been good there either. You probably aren't good enough to win a title with Butler playing significant minutes. You will have to play your best lineup, something that Brooks seems to be completely incapable of doing. He's played literally every other lineup this year except for your best one- Westbrook/Jackson/Durant/Ibaka/Collison.

PER through 4 games-

1.Kevin Durant-------21.1
2.Serge Ibaka--------19.7
3.Reggie Jackson----19.6
4.Russell Westbrook-16.7
5.Derek Fisher-------12.9
6.Nick Collison-------12.5
7.Thabo Sefolosha----9.7
8.Kendrick Perkins----7.7
9.Caron Butler---------3.1
10.Steven Adams----(-3.3)

That lineup would be abused defensively. Collison isn't long enough or big enough to guard gasol/Randolph for long stretches. Per doesn't measure rather or not a player is doing what he was signed to do. In butler's case that is hit open threes and guard the other teams 2 or 3 so Durant doesn't have to.

[laika]

That lineup would be abused defensively. Collison isn't long enough or big enough to guard gasol/Randolph for long stretches. Per doesn't measure rather or not a player is doing what he was signed to do. In butler's case that is hit open threes and guard the other teams 2 or 3 so Durant doesn't have to.

That doesn't make sense. Collison/Ibaka/Durant is a lot bigger than the Ibaka/Durant/Butler they are currently playing. PER doesn't measure everything, but it does measure offense/rebounding fairly well. 3.1 is so horrible that you can't reasonably say that Butler is doing what they are hoping for. As for guarding people, I'd much rather have Durant guarding Miller/Prince/Lee than Randolph. If somehow Gasol starts posting up Collison then you could try playing Perkins. Under no scenario are they better off playing Butler than Collison/Jackson right now.

[Bravenewworld]

PER is always a last resort option to a line up or roster argument.
Ive never been a big fan of it.
Im much happier with basic stats, some advanced and an eye test.

[spearsy23]

That lineup would be abused defensively. Collison isn't long enough or big enough to guard gasol/Randolph for long stretches. Per doesn't measure rather or not a player is doing what he was signed to do. In butler's case that is hit open threes and guard the other teams 2 or 3 so Durant doesn't have to.

That doesn't make sense. Collison/Ibaka/Durant is a lot bigger than the Ibaka/Durant/Butler they are currently playing. PER doesn't measure everything, but it does measure offense/rebounding fairly well. 3.1 is so horrible that you can't reasonably say that Butler is doing what they are hoping for. As for guarding people, I'd much rather have Durant guarding Miller/Prince/Lee than Randolph. If somehow Gasol starts posting up Collison then you could try playing Perkins. Under no scenario are they better off playing Butler than Collison/Jackson right now.

They've played Durant at the PF 28 minutes over 4 games (including 3 over times), mostly while Randolph or Gasol is sitting.

Butler hit open threes, Butler guard other teams best perimeter wing, butler no pay to rebound/create offense, butler do job Butler signed for.

[Bravenewworld]

They've played Durant at the PF 28 minutes over 4 games (including 3 over times), mostly while Randolph or Gasol is sitting.

Butler hit open threes, Butler guard other teams best perimeter wing, butler no pay to rebound/create offense, butler do job Butler signed for.

I think all the points are lost on this guy.
He seems to think everyone was suggesting that the only way Butler could be a good or great signing is if he stepped into a time machine and went back to 2005 and was again putting up 23, 5, 5.
He seems to have zero concept that spot up shooting, B+ defense, experience and 9ppg is exactly what we needed and all of us are perfectly fine with that.

And if people want to get a good look at this guys' value. Then take a look at when Westbrook, Perkins and Thabo were out and we had to play Butler more then Lamb and PJ3 because apparently Lamb is the second most inconsistent player in the NBA, only behind JR Smith. For a role player he was as valuable as you can get.

[laika]

He's not doing any of those things though. Among the 9 rotation playes Butler has easily the worst TS%. He has the worst Ortg. He has the worst Drtg. He's basically doing nothing, no matter how little you expect from him.

I'm done for a while. I'll come back once we find out whether Butler/Sefolosha/Perkins/Adams managed to ruin your season. The only thing interesting about this conversation is the lengths you'll go to avoid admitting you're wrong.

[spearsy23]

He's not doing any of those things though. Among the 9 rotation playes Butler has easily the worst TS%. He has the worst Ortg. He has the worst Drtg. He's basically doing nothing, no matter how little you expect from him.

I'm done for a while. I'll come back once we find out whether Butler/Sefolosha/Perkins/Adams managed to ruin your season. The only thing interesting about this conversation is the lengths you'll go to avoid admitting you're wrong.

He's hitting 40% of his threes in the series, his defense hasn't really mattered at all though because Memphis only has Conley that can create from the perimeter. Those were the 2 (really, count em, 2) things he's being paid to do.

[Bravenewworld]

I'm done for a while. I'll come back once we find out whether Butler/Sefolosha/Perkins/Adams managed to ruin your season. The only thing interesting about this conversation is the lengths you'll go to avoid admitting you're wrong.

From what i am hearing here is if we lose a series, no matter what it will be because of Butler or Thabo or Perkins or Adams? Is this what you are saying? Why does Adams fit in there? He is a rookie. Even if he missed the last shot of a game 7 and we lost because of it, the reason we would lose that game most likely could not be chalked up to him.
Thabo is almost a 100% defensive player.
And Perkins is just someone we throw in to help wear out the other team's big men.
Im not quite sure why you think we will find out anything about one of four depth role players (one guy who has not even had 20 minutes total in 4 games)... but... whatever. At this point its fairly safe to say that you have no idea what youre talking about.

And lets not play nit pick stats. Since Butler has been on the Thunder he has averaged 9.7pts, 3.2reb, 1.2ast, 1.1stl, 41%FG, 44%3pt, 84%ft. And in only 9 of 22 of his OKC games he has posted below 10 with 10 games below 40% shooting and only 4 posting 30+ min.
This is exactly what we wanted and exactly what you were saying was not going to happen. or would backfire some how (i have yet to figure out what you even mean by him causing the season to end as you NEVER chalk up a season ender to one single player, especially a part time role player). He gives us experience and needed spot up shooting and he can effectively guard (at least) Memphis' guards.
If you go back to the previous posts he is meeting people's expectations of him and everyone seemed to know what he was going to do. Outside of you who seems to think he is the coming of the anti-Christ. I think there is something personal here that logic and real numbers wont change, but whatever. Like it or not he was a great addition to the team and doing exactly what we expected.

He's not doing any of those things though. Among the 9 rotation playes Butler has easily the worst TS%. He has the worst Ortg. He has the worst Drtg. He's basically doing nothing, no matter how little you expect from him.

You don't have to be such a stat whore. Hell, you're not even a stat whore, youre a nit-pick stat whore, which is worse. Its not very commendable and definitely does not say anything positive about what you know about the game. I generally dismiss people who feel the argument they are presenting has to be completely stat based and without those stats one cannot present an argument. Which means the argument is bogus. IMO at least, im sure thats not true for every topic but whatever.
But what you're doing is ignoring everything he has done for us, all the positive stats he gives us, the great rotation he adds, the experience, the shooting ability, the defense, etc. etc. etc. all for a couple of rather silly stats that do not mean much unless you put everything in context (and then 50% of the story is still missing) just so you can say something that does not make sense anyway.

[laika]

You seem to be awfully upset about this.

It's not that hard to determine who is to blame- you can look at which lineups lost and which won. I highly doubt that you could ever honestly assess the situation though.