Sam Presti vs Gar

[Axxo]

Mabe you guys shed some light on this. There is a duspute on the Bulls gm forum over the bulls and thunders accomplishments over the past 8 years. The leading defense is that the Presti only looks better than Gar b/c the thunder didn't have injuries to their star players for a 3 year period like the Bulls did DRose. I'm a Bulls fan however, I'm arguing Presti has done the better job, Gar hasn't done much to warrant keeping his job. Since you guys know more about the thunder I thought you could also provide some insight. I'll cross post some of the debate, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[Axxo]

OKC made other moves in FA. Speaking of last 4 drafts Bulls got Zipser, Portis, McD, Cameron Bairstow, Tony Snell, Erik Murphy, Marquis Teague and Valentine. Who should we brag about here?

Thunder 2007-08 to 2015-16 (DNQ = Did not Qualify)

DNQs = 2
WCFs = 3
2nd rnd exits = 1
1st rnd exits = 1
NBA Finals = 1

Bulls 2007-08 2015-16
DNQs = 2
ECFs = 1
2nd rnd exits = 2
1st rnd exits = 4
NBA Finals = 0

Land of basket ball site.

So you are saying 4 first round outs, 2 second round outs, 1 eastern conference appearance and zero finals appearances is better than 3 western conference appearances, 1 first and second round exit, and 1 NBA Finals appearance correct?

Yes considering the bulls missed Rose for three straight playoff runs after he won a mvp award and established himself as an elite player. The thunder haven't been to finals since Harden was traded and haven't found anyone even close to filling the role he played on that team. Do you honestly think if Durant or Westbrook missed three straight playoff years the aggregate numbers for them wouldn't take a hit like the bulls did with Derrick.

Portis and Doug are probably already at least NBA rotation players with McDermott being an elite three point shooter. Valentine looks also to have a floor of at least a rotation player. I can't say that about Jones or mcgary who were considered steals in the draft who dropped because of injury. When they were healthy they did absolutely nothing.

[Axxo]

And are still in better shape than the Bulls

Okc has zero path to a title. They squandered having KD Westbrook Ibaka Harden. Ouch.

They are in nba hell. *



* per our nba hell guidelines

And the Bulls have a path to the nba title AND had the foresight to even find talent such as Russell, Harden, Ibaka and KD to begin with b/c they have done such a good job so far and are not IN NBA hell as we speak ... gotcha

[Axxo]

Lets see they misdiagnosed Deng, didn't keep track of the wear and tear on DRose, sent joakim noah back out on the floor only to have him run off the floor in pain requiring surgery, let Taj play with shredded ligaments in his feet, that's them doing their job? And you still have fully answered my questions. You brought up the last 4 drafts. Who should the Bulls brag about in that time that makes them better acquisitions than what the Thunder has put together? You ask alot of questions ask for documented verification yet provide none in return nor answer the questions fully.

He had a bad reaction to a spinal tap. It was done because he was showing signs of a possible form of meningitis. The only way to be sure whether it was or wasn't was for the spinal that's not misdiagnosis. Noah isn't the first player to try and play through an injury but ultimately couldn't. Cristiano Ronaldo dis the exact same thing in the euro 2016 final. He suffered a knee gestured to the sideline to be taken out. Goes to the sideline for a few minutes returns to the field but can't move well and gets subbed. The ligaments with Taj was about pain threshold. If he could stand the pain and play well put off the surgery. If the pain is too much and it effects play have the procedure sooner. I said Bobby, Doug and Denzel look to be at the very least rotation players. Outside of Adams you can't say that about recent President drats. Here's the link by the way.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/draft.html

Are you kidding? DR. Cole even said on his sports science radio Taj shouldn't have even been walking in that condition, let alone playing...

And Doug, Portis, Valentine (who hasn't played in an nba game yet btw...) shows the Bulls have more talent than what the thunder has put together? Building a team includes FAs btw, not just draft picks. Add to that a better post season record and you still saying that Bulls mgmt is doing a better job over the last 8 years than the thunder..who arguably had the most talented team in the west last season? Really..? You don't see any issue with that logic? You picked a guy who hasnt even played 5 secs in an nba game to defend your position ...what?

These are just a few of the exchanges, but cover the bulk of the discussion.

[bondom34]

Mabe you guys shed some light on this. There is a duspute on the Bulls gm forum over the bulls and thunders accomplishments over the past 8 years. The leading defense is that the Presti only looks better than Gar b/c the thunder didn't have injuries to their star players for a 3 year period like the Bulls did DRose. I'm a Bulls fan however, I'm arguing Presti has done the better job, Gar hasn't done much to warrant keeping his job. Since you guys know more about the thunder I thought you could also provide some insight. I'll cross post some of the debate, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Wait huh?

Westbrook, Ibaka, and Durant all missed the last 3 years at critical times. Sorry, but Presti is better than Gar. Presti's drafted much better and I can't think of a thing Foreman has done better. Its not even close to me, and it is a reach. Presti's probably a top 5 GM. OKC is younger, better, and has more flexibility going forward and has been more successful even with injury to those 3. I don't really have much else to say but the idea is really wrong if people believe it. Many here have criticized Presti, but Gar's one of the worst GMs in the league.

Presti's hit early picks, late picks, mid 1sts, has had no cap space to work with and filled out a constantly competitive roster with the entire core under 26. Gar's drafted Butler and......nobody? Has struck out in free agency, alienated coaches and players, and has a core of Butler, Wade, and Rondo. Yeah you need some serious Bull's red colored glasses to whoever believes they're remotely close. I'd guess they're the same who think Rose was a top caliber PG last season.

[bondom34]

Okc has zero path to a title. They squandered having KD Westbrook Ibaka Harden. Ouch.

They are in nba hell. *



* per our nba hell guidelines

And the Bulls have a path to the nba title AND had the foresight to even find talent such as Russell, Harden, Ibaka and KD to begin with b/c they have done such a good job so far and are not IN NBA hell as we speak ... gotcha

And for this, yeah they're still in better shape. They got a haul for Ibaka and Durant was the only one who left for nothing. Harden wanted out and Adams is better than any youth on Chicago. The only guy on the Bulls even better than him is Butler.

[bondom34]

Yeah I'm gonna stay out of that thread because I admit I'm a homer sometimes but there are some crazy homer narratives on the Bulls board with this.

[Axxo]

I don't think injuries are a good excuse. Did tbe Bulls have a lot of em sure, but only now did they replace the medical staff after getting numerous complaints from the players and having the entire starting line up go down at one point or another for extended periods of time. Which im saying is also on the GM. Its Gars responsibility.

[Axxo]

Another topic floating is the Harden deal and how big a mistake that was. However, if you guys would hsve kept Harden who might you not have now? Kanter comes to mind, but I'm not sure who else. And thanks for the input.

[bondom34]

Harden wanted out.

And they wouldn't have Adams or McGary.

[Andre Roberstan]

I...just...what?

Honestly GarPax has done a decent enough job at drafting. Aside from that, though, I haven't liked much the Bulls have done since around the time Rose came back from injury.

Honestly given the amount of GarPax criticism I've seen it's astonishing to me that any Bulls fans have a positive opinion.

[Old Man Game]

Harden wanted out.

And they wouldn't have Adams or McGary.

Or Abrines.

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[Old Man Game]

The biggest problem Presti had was an ownership group that wanted to avoid the tax until they didn't but by which point it was too late to matter. Not just trading Harden but all those years we didn't use the MLE whilst fielding ever worse shooting guards (to the point where some fans convinced themselves Dion was good). If you've got two max players and a third guy that's an elite role player (all you drafted) being paid really well, and you can't go above the tax, good luck doing a better job than Sam.

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[Kizz Fastfists]

OKC got better faster than anyone expected. Presti hit on a top 5 pick in every draft he had one. KD, Russ and Harden. Then he hit on Ibaka with a late first. Throw in Adams, Reggie Jackson and Roberson and the "misses" are not only rare, but they weren't bad misses. Jeff Green is a solid rotation player and while Noah would have been an ideal pick there isn't anyone else you can argue without it being massive hindsight. Cole Aldrich was always a solid backup big man, but he didn't offer any offense and OKC was looking for an offensive big man to complement Perkins. Aldrich has become a very solid player and a starting caliber big man, although largely offensively challenged.

The ownership invested a lot of money purchasing the team, buying out the lease and paying the NBA moving costs, etc. They had a number they wanted to get back before they went into running the team as a civic project at no profit. They got that money back and now they are willing to run it as a neutral revenue business. Russ, KD, Harden and Ibaka all become top tier talents as fast as they did just made that plan difficult, especially when you add in Perkins' premature decline.

Having players that were unhappy with their role, specifically Harden and Reggie Jackson, were not something that could be fixed by money. Even as max players neither was going to be happy as the 6th man in OKC. They had to go because they didn't fit. Presti got a great haul for Harden given the situation. One of the picks was Adams, another was Abrines, Jeremy Lamb was solid, although he has never reached what was perceived as his potential on draft day. Adding Kanter was a nice move. The only move Presti has made that I was critical of at the time was the Waiters trade. I see that was as his one mistake. Every other move made sense for the team at the time.

[oken]

For the last 2 years I would only rank Detroit's Jeff Bowen+SVG combination above Presti. I admire SVG a lot. Thye did all the right moves while Presti's Kyle Singler blunder has cost the team at least another finals appearance.

These were some of the elements of the team when SVG started:
Kyle Singler, Brandon Jennings, Josh Smith, Greg Monroe, Caron Butler, Shawne Williams, D.J. Augustin

First they waived Josh Smith. Oh yes. This is definitely Grade A. They also did not match 17mln/year for Greg Monroe. Technically not a trade but I would rate this move as also Grade A.

As known by everyone here they got Reggie Jackson for D.J Augustin, Kyle Singler and a 2nd round pick in a 3-team trade. I believe this is a also Grade A trade considering how Reggie Jackson has performed for them until now. OKC also got a good deal out of this trade.

They traded a 2nd round pick to Suns for Marcus Morris which is now obvious that he was the "better" of the Morris brothers and a steal at PF at 4.6mln until 2019!! Grade A+

They got Ilyasova for Caron Butler+Shawne Williams and then traded Ilyasova+BJ who recently had an achilles injury to Orlando for Tobias Harris who is now averaging around 10% above his previous stint with Orlando stat-wise and his 17mln/year contract does not look bad after this cap-crazy FA. Grade B+

They got Aron Baynes from Spurs for 7mln/year who was solid for them and also added in FA Marjanovic at 7mln/year. Currently looks like a Grade B.

Practically they got nothing wrong and made Pistons an eastern conference contender in just 2 years.

[Patches Perry]

Presti. He doesn't have the "Chicago" draw to bring in free agents and still put a better team on the court, and went deeper into the playoffs in a tougher conference. Some might look at signing a guy like Pau as a credit to Chicago front office, but to me that's just further proof that Presti is superior. Pau chose Chicago because of the city, not because of the GM. You can't use that as a credit to the GM. Despite that handicap for OKC, they were still better. Admittedly, this is purely because Presti struck gold in the draft a few times. We'll see if those were an aberration or he actually has a keen eye for talent. Still, for the time period in question, you can't take those picks away from him. He drafted a bunch of great players. Durant was a no-brainer, but Harden and Westbrook were both seen as reaches, then RJ, Ibaka, Adams, etc.

[Axxo]

All good points