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Knrstz wrote:In Donovan's defense, (which I hesitate to say) is it possible that no combination of lineups will work because these players aren't good?

While there are very limited lineups that actually work there is no excuse for only playing Taj 20 minutes in a close playoff game. Taj was +17 points in 21 minutes you would have thought he would have gotten more playing time. Adams and Russ were the only other players in the positive in game 2. The real problem is when you pull Russ you are handing PG over to Semaj. I can't blame Donovan for there being no competent backup PG on the roster.

Knrstz wrote:

NaturalThunder wrote:

Thundershock88 wrote:That lineup at the end of the third changed the outcome last night. What the hell kind if lineup is Christon, Dipo, Singler, Roberson, Grant? Grant was somehow supposed to stop Nene? The Rockets didn't even need Nene, because they got to the rim at will. Was that supposed to be a defensive specialist unit? They got lit up and there was no consistent scoring on the floor. Someone needs to explain to Billy that going small is only effective if everyone can score.

Or, you know, if maybe at least 2 or 3 players in a smallball lineup can score. That lineup has only one player who can create his own shot and kinda sorta score in Oladipo, and he's not very good at it.

We've now played 84 games this season and Donovan still has no clue what combinations of players work and don't work. He's clueless.

In Donovan's defense, (which I hesitate to say) is it possible that no combination of lineups will work because these players aren't good?

Yes, that is part of the problem. We basically have one transcendent talent, a group of four or so players who are solid NBA players but either embarrassingly suck at one end of the court or just don't do any one thing spectacularly well, and then a bunch of trash. There's not a great mix and match of players to put on the court which makes it even more infuriating and baffling why Donovan is trying to play 12 different players at this point in the season. We know what players aren't going to work for sure: Christon, Singler, and Sabonis.

I think the most headscratching and most frustrating thing he's doing as far as the rotation goes, though, is his continual insistence on not giving Gibson more than about 20 minutes per game. Based on the on/off numbers since Gibson got here, and based on the fact that we're about to be 4 or 5 game first round fodder, that alone should be enough to put Donovan under a lot of scrutiny.


Oh, and Presti deserves to be criticized more for not trying harder to get Russ a capable backup. We got by with Russ being what he is in the regular season because he only had to play about 35 MPG. But now that we're trying to rely on him for 40ish minutes, he's hitting a wall but we don't have even a semi-competent backup PG to spell him for 5-6 minutes each half.

NaturalThunder wrote:

Knrstz wrote:

NaturalThunder wrote:Or, you know, if maybe at least 2 or 3 players in a smallball lineup can score. That lineup has only one player who can create his own shot and kinda sorta score in Oladipo, and he's not very good at it.

We've now played 84 games this season and Donovan still has no clue what combinations of players work and don't work. He's clueless.

In Donovan's defense, (which I hesitate to say) is it possible that no combination of lineups will work because these players aren't good?

Yes, that is part of the problem. We basically have one transcendent talent, a group of four or so players who are solid NBA players but either embarrassingly suck at one end of the court or just don't do any one thing spectacularly well, and then a bunch of trash. There's not a great mix and match of players to put on the court which makes it even more infuriating and baffling why Donovan is trying to play 12 different players at this point in the season. We know what players aren't going to work for sure: Christon, Singler, and Sabonis.

I think the most headscratching and most frustrating thing he's doing as far as the rotation goes, though, is his continual insistence on not giving Gibson more than about 20 minutes per game. Based on the on/off numbers since Gibson got here, and based on the fact that we're about to be 4 or 5 game first round fodder, that alone should be enough to put Donovan under a lot of scrutiny.


Oh, and Presti deserves to be criticized more for not trying harder to get Russ a capable backup. We got by with Russ being what he is in the regular season because he only had to play about 35 MPG. But now that we're trying to rely on him for 40ish minutes, he's hitting a wall but we don't have even a semi-competent backup PG to spell him for 5-6 minutes each half.

Absolutely. Our last two acquisitions in that area were Ronnie Price, who we are still paying and a guy who was playing in China.

The lack of a competent backup PG is a problem, obviously, but Donovan's constant shuffling of the bench units is making things worse. The way to overcome the lack of talent at least somewhat is through teamwork but that's very hard to develop when your bench units change constantly. Your backups just don't seem as a coherent unit on offense. How often do you see them get easy looks thanks to good ball movement and timely cuts? Barely ever.

Bergmaniac wrote:The lack of a competent backup PG is a problem, obviously, but Donovan's constant shuffling of the bench units is making things worse. The way to overcome the lack of talent at least somewhat is through teamwork but that's very hard to develop when your bench units change constantly. Your backups just don't seem as a coherent unit on offense. How often do you see them get easy looks thanks to good ball movement and timely cuts? Barely ever.

True, and when we have Oladipo on the floor with the second team offense, he's absolutely incapable of running it and scoring against the second unit.

Well the local media is ripping Donovan pretty hard today. Trainer, Al and Blevins are criticizing him, and rightfully so.

Knrstz wrote:Well the local media is ripping Donovan pretty hard today. Trainer, Al and Blevins are criticizing him, and rightfully so.

What took them so long? He's been terrible all year.

Bergmaniac wrote:

Knrstz wrote:Well the local media is ripping Donovan pretty hard today. Trainer, Al and Blevins are criticizing him, and rightfully so.

What took them so long? He's been terrible all year.

You have to understand how the thunder organization operates. They have a lot of people fooled.

Knrstz wrote:

NaturalThunder wrote:

Thundershock88 wrote:That lineup at the end of the third changed the outcome last night. What the hell kind if lineup is Christon, Dipo, Singler, Roberson, Grant? Grant was somehow supposed to stop Nene? The Rockets didn't even need Nene, because they got to the rim at will. Was that supposed to be a defensive specialist unit? They got lit up and there was no consistent scoring on the floor. Someone needs to explain to Billy that going small is only effective if everyone can score.

Or, you know, if maybe at least 2 or 3 players in a smallball lineup can score. That lineup has only one player who can create his own shot and kinda sorta score in Oladipo, and he's not very good at it.

We've now played 84 games this season and Donovan still has no clue what combinations of players work and don't work. He's clueless.

In Donovan's defense, (which I hesitate to say) is it possible that no combination of lineups will work because these players aren't good?

It's both. The players aren't good, but We got outscored by 15 points in six and a half minutes without Russ. That's not an outlier, and There's no combination of NBA players in history that should be that bad on a consistent basis. Nobody has any clue what is expected out of them, there are the guys with defined roles on this team; Russ is expected to do everything, Robes is expected to lock down the other team's best player, and Enes is expected to score all points when Russ isn't in the game. For everyone else it's a free for all, they don't know what they're supposed to be providing and even worse they don't know what's expected of them to get playing time.

Abrines can shoot 40% from 3 for a few weeks in a row then all of the sudden he's out of the rotation so that Cole and semaj can play together.

Jerami Grant is a stretch 4, then a 3, now a 5?

Domas is supposed to stand at the three point line and launch three's, or should he set picks, or is he a scoring option, or should he completely avoid the ball altogether?

McBuckets is a scorer, let's run him off screens and work to get him shots, wait, just kidding, go stand on the wing while Kanter massages the ball, nah we can just play Kyle instead!

Speaking of Kyle, hey you're the second player off the bench, jk wearing street clothes, playoffs are coming time to get you back in the lineup.

Semaj? Bro, just come in for the 10 minutes every night that Russ sits and don't turn the ball over. Unless we play you next to Russ because we need more..uh... whatever it is you provide.

Cole, we signed you to be our backup poi...Er backup pg's back....Er backup sg?

Taj: F*** YOU

85% of Donovan's lineup choices are non-positive in playoffs. Either Rockets are thru & thru the better team or he is coaching poorly or both.

The only two lineups better than plus 2 for series have Russ, Vic, Steven and then Robes / Taj or McDermott / Singler.

If Donovan can't figure out nuance in this series just play the hell out of lineup 1 and only turn to lineup 2 for rest, offense or desperation.

If you can't dink lineup well, don't do it.

spearsy23 wrote:

Knrstz wrote:

NaturalThunder wrote:Or, you know, if maybe at least 2 or 3 players in a smallball lineup can score. That lineup has only one player who can create his own shot and kinda sorta score in Oladipo, and he's not very good at it.

We've now played 84 games this season and Donovan still has no clue what combinations of players work and don't work. He's clueless.

In Donovan's defense, (which I hesitate to say) is it possible that no combination of lineups will work because these players aren't good?

It's both. The players aren't good, but We got outscored by 15 points in six and a half minutes without Russ. That's not an outlier, and There's no combination of NBA players in history that should be that bad on a consistent basis. Nobody has any clue what is expected out of them, there are the guys with defined roles on this team; Russ is expected to do everything, Robes is expected to lock down the other team's best player, and Enes is expected to score all points when Russ isn't in the game. For everyone else it's a free for all, they don't know what they're supposed to be providing and even worse they don't know what's expected of them to get playing time.

Abrines can shoot 40% from 3 for a few weeks in a row then all of the sudden he's out of the rotation so that Cole and semaj can play together.

Jerami Grant is a stretch 4, then a 3, now a 5?

Domas is supposed to stand at the three point line and launch three's, or should he set picks, or is he a scoring option, or should he completely avoid the ball altogether?

McBuckets is a scorer, let's run him off screens and work to get him shots, wait, just kidding, go stand on the wing while Kanter massages the ball, nah we can just play Kyle instead!

Speaking of Kyle, hey you're the second player off the bench, jk wearing street clothes, playoffs are coming time to get you back in the lineup.

Semaj? Bro, just come in for the 10 minutes every night that Russ sits and don't turn the ball over. Unless we play you next to Russ because we need more..uh... whatever it is you provide.

Cole, we signed you to be our backup poi...Er backup pg's back....Er backup sg?

Taj: F*** YOU

This made my smile. But it's worrying that it could also make me cry.

spearsy23 wrote:

Knrstz wrote:

NaturalThunder wrote:Or, you know, if maybe at least 2 or 3 players in a smallball lineup can score. That lineup has only one player who can create his own shot and kinda sorta score in Oladipo, and he's not very good at it.

We've now played 84 games this season and Donovan still has no clue what combinations of players work and don't work. He's clueless.

In Donovan's defense, (which I hesitate to say) is it possible that no combination of lineups will work because these players aren't good?

It's both. The players aren't good, but We got outscored by 15 points in six and a half minutes without Russ. That's not an outlier, and There's no combination of NBA players in history that should be that bad on a consistent basis. Nobody has any clue what is expected out of them, there are the guys with defined roles on this team; Russ is expected to do everything, Robes is expected to lock down the other team's best player, and Enes is expected to score all points when Russ isn't in the game. For everyone else it's a free for all, they don't know what they're supposed to be providing and even worse they don't know what's expected of them to get playing time.

Abrines can shoot 40% from 3 for a few weeks in a row then all of the sudden he's out of the rotation so that Cole and semaj can play together.

Jerami Grant is a stretch 4, then a 3, now a 5?

Domas is supposed to stand at the three point line and launch three's, or should he set picks, or is he a scoring option, or should he completely avoid the ball altogether?

McBuckets is a scorer, let's run him off screens and work to get him shots, wait, just kidding, go stand on the wing while Kanter massages the ball, nah we can just play Kyle instead!

Speaking of Kyle, hey you're the second player off the bench, jk wearing street clothes, playoffs are coming time to get you back in the lineup.

Semaj? Bro, just come in for the 10 minutes every night that Russ sits and don't turn the ball over. Unless we play you next to Russ because we need more..uh... whatever it is you provide.

Cole, we signed you to be our backup poi...Er backup pg's back....Er backup sg?

Taj: F*** YOU

What a beautiful summary of our rotations. It's funny that Donovan tinkers with everything but Russ' minutes are set in stone and despite having two of the worst players in the NBA, singler and a semaj, we won't give huestis a chance. I don't think Huestis is the savior but is he really worse than singler? If there is ever a time for Donovan to give him a chance it will be in the fourth quarter of tonight's game, but we should have given him a chance during the regular season.

Late in the 3rd qtr. Donovan had Roberson, Singler, Christon, Grant and Oladipo in the game when they lost that lead which infuriated Russ (and rightfully so). That's probably why he got so out of control in the 4th qtr. jacking it up every time just out of sheer frustration with his coach and teammates. I'm beginning to think that Donovan's coaching philosophy is to just keep throwing poop against the wall and hoping some will stick. He frankly should be fired just for putting Singler in the game. How in the world can he ever be an option at this point? I've barely even see Huestis play but he HAS to be much better than Singler. Losing that game was an example of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. They played a great game for most of 3 qtrs. and then the coach went away from the lineups that were working and lost a double digit lead with sheer stupidity in a lineup with 4 non scorers. That was hard to watch.

Adjusting late in a series is usually too late, especially as an underdog. The first games are not the place to see what works, to see if normal is good enough when the facts say it probably won't be. Thunder needed to change strategy from the jump and max it. They didn't.

i don't think donovan really knows what he's doing at this level yet.

jambalaya wrote:Adjusting late in a series is usually too late, especially as an underdog. The first games are not the place to see what works, to see if normal is good enough when the facts say it probably won't be. Thunder needed to change strategy from the jump and max it. They didn't.

I normally don't tend to lay the coaching criticism on thick, but when I can see what adjustments need to be made and Donovan beats his head against the wall for 3 games, that aggravates me a little.

Probably still would have lost. But it wouldn't have been as bad as playing 12 guys in a playoff rotation.

Billy D is a second year head coach... You have to let coaches grow into the role. Very few, and I mean very few ever wins in their first two or three years. Spolestra took a while before he won and he's a pretty damn good coach. We talk about how young the team is, well the coach is young as well.

Everybody is growing and we'll be back in championship contention the 2018-2019 season. After this summer, you'll see the seeds the planted


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D'Antoni schooled him pretty harsh this playoff series be it intentional fouling (oh my god how disgraceful!), trapping (no that's unfair!), mid-court press (hey let the guy at least get the ball man!) or full-court press (is that even allowed?)

Donovan should be grateful because he got at least 2 years worth of experience in 5 games from a master. Maybe he should also write to coaches tribune and show his gratitude?

Donovan is a "championship coach". With Noah and Horford and another NBA level player? He should be. May not have to be a great coach to win there with that. Recruiting was a big part of that. Good coach may have been enough and may have been the case.

And of course the NBA is different. Especially at the very end. But "he beat Pop". Yeah, barely with 2 top 5 players against an old Spurs team and Pop being stubborn and sloppy. He "almost beat the Warriors". True but again with 2 stars and Draymond making a big mistake. It was "close with the Rockets" Sorta and not. Rockets shot terrible and still won consistently.

I dunno how good he is. Not good enough to have it taken as a given for being better than better than average. Average in NBA is not that good and so better than average is not necessarily that much better or more importantly "enough" to do great things.