ATNE Tournament, Round 1: 8.poopdamoop v. 9. Warspite

[JeepCSC]

All-Time Non-Elite Tournament. Write-ups to follow.

[Owly]

Team Drafts
Team Seed Pick Team Seed Pick
poopdamoop 8 8 Warspite 9 12
Jerry West 1 8 Bill Walton 1 12
Alonzo Mourning 2 25 Walt Frazier 2 21
Sidney Moncrief 3 40 Joe Dumars 3 44
Chris Mullin 4 57 John Havlicek 4 53
Elgin Baylor 5 72 Kevin Love 5 76
Yao Ming 6 89 Bernard King 6 85
Deron Williams 7 104 Detlef Schrempf 7 108
Al Horford 8 121 Maurice Cheeks 8 117
Tom Thibodeau 9 136 Mel Daniels 9 140
Buck Williams 10 153 Tom Izzo 10 149
Dan Majerle 11 168 Louie Dampier 11 172

General/for seeding writeups

8
poopdamoop
Alonzo Mourning
Al Horford
Elgin Baylor
Sidney Moncrief
Jerry West

Yao Ming
Buck Williams
Chris Mullin
Dan Majerle
Deron Williams

Coach: Tom Thibodeau

Spoiler:

Rotation:

Jerry West/Deron Williams
Sidney Moncrief/Dan Majerle
Chris Mullin/Elgin Baylor
Buck Williams/Al Horford
Alonzo Mourning/Yao Ming

Coach: Tom Thibodeau

I think this team can be the best defensive team in the league. I've got DPOY's in both the frontcourt and backcourt, as well as all-D team members in West and Williams, plus one of the best defensive coaches of all time running the show. Given what he was able to do with the Celtics and Bulls, Thibs should turn this team into a powerhouse D with Zo and Squid holding down the fort. Many of my backups, including Yao, Horford, and Majerle, are also elite defenders, so the whole team will shutting down opponents for 48 minutes.

Offensively, the team has one of the elite guards of all time in Jerry West to lead the way. If you've never seen West play, his closest comparison is Dwyane Wade, statistically, except West was also an elite shooter. His shooting and playmaking abilities mean that he can excel at either PG or SG, and his backup, Deron Williams, was one of the best PG's in the league in his prime. My backup PG is very comparable to some of the starting PG's in this game.

At SG, Sidney Moncrief was one of the best defenders in the world, but he was also a great mid-range shooter with multiple 20 ppg seasons on over 50% shooting. He's the perfect compliment to West on that end. Majerle won't play much, but if I need a 3/D guy, he's one of the best there is.

Chris Mullin was an All-NBA 1st forward in the 90's, beating out guys like Barkley and Malone, and his all-around game was fantastic. 25+ per game on great percentages from 3, and will help space the floor along with West for the starting line-up. Off the bench, I have (IMO) the best 6th man in this game in Elgin Baylor, who was an elite all-around scorer and rebounder. He's taken some criticism for his efficiency, but the average efficiency in the 60's was generally low due to the style of gameplay, and off the bench his role will be much more restrained, while still allowing him the spacing and ability to showcase the talent that allowed him to average 38/17 for a season.

Buck Williams isn't a well-known guy, but he was a great player in the 80's and 90's. Much like Horace Grant, Buck was a great mid-range shooter and a stud defensively, and even though he shifted to that role later in his career, he was still an all-NBA 2nd team player in the beginning of his career when required to shoot more. Al Horford is very similar, in that he's a well-rounded PF with no real weaknesses, and can fill any role, be it floor-spacer or primary defender.

Mourning is one of the best C's of all time, and even though his kidney problems cut his prime short, he was an elite defensive anchor, winning back-to-back DPOY's. He was also a very strong scorer, but given how talented this team is, Mourning can focus his energy on D and take advantage of strong matchups on offense. Off the bench, Yao Ming is another elite C who was hampered by injuries, but was an all-time great shooting big-man and defensive player, and will get plenty of time to feast on opposing backup C's.

Overall, I focused more on my bench than most other people did, and I believe that should give me the edge here. Much of my team consists of older players, which may put me at a disadvantage, but given the way guys like West and Baylor played, their games would easily translate to the modern era. My main backups (D-Will, Baylor, and Yao) could easily be starters for many teams in this league, and when you combine that with the stifling D of my starting lineup, I hope you can see why my team deserves to win.

[/quote]
9
Warspite
Bill Walton
Kevin Love
John Havlicek
Joe Dumars
Walt Frazier

Mel Daniels
Detlef Schrempf
Bernard King
Louie Dampier
Maurice Cheeks

Coach: Tom Izzo

Spoiler:

starting lineup
PG Frasier
SG Dumars
SF King
PF Love
C Walton

Bench
Cheeks, Hondo, Schrempf, Mel Daniels, Louie Dampier

Coach Tom Izzo

Offense:
King is #1 option in the low post with Love and Dumars on the outside and Walton in the high post/elbow. Other plays will be using Dumars and Hondo much like Rip Hamilton having them come off screens for curls and having Frasier play pick and pop/roll with Walton/Schrempf/Love/Daniels.

Defense:
Frasier/Dumars is the best defensive backcourt if not the best overall. Cheeks and Hondo will back them up so there isn't much drop off. Walton/Daniels are the rim protectors while Love provides rebounding.

Hanging our hat on defense, guard play and clutchness. I can put a lineup on the court in which every player is a FMVP. Frazier/Dumars/Hondo/Daniels/Walton. No my team is not 3pt dependent and with Frasier, Dumars, Walton and Hondo I get great passing to find more quality looks. I think my fast break will also be very effective with Walton/Love outlet passing to start the break or find early offense.

[Warspite]

Intriguing matchup

I will be using a 7 man rotation (starters + Hondo/Daniels). with Cheeks/Schrempf being used sparenly

Game plan Defense:

Frontcourt: Zo and Buck are mediocre post players who will be used more to set screens for Mullin and Squid luckily for me I have elite wing defense to fight the screens and length to hedge. We will use our length to dominate the paint and with a reb rate of 20.5 and 23.1 vs 15.6 and 17.6 rebounding will be dominated by my team. Zo at 6'9" and Buck and 6'8" are are going to be guarded by much bigger players. Im lucky in that my worst defender doesn't have to be hidden since he has to guard the other teams 5th option.

Backcourt: How do you handle Jerry West? Well I have the PG who guarded him 3x in the Finals holding him to 44% shooting and way under his avgs for pts, assts and rebs. Of course I also have the ability to switch Dumars and even Hondo on him. West is going to have to work harder vs my team than just about any other. Squid loves to drive and shoot the midrange shots but the spacing with Zo and Buck don't let him operate as well. Mullin is the 3pt shooter but he doesn't draw my bigs out. When Dumars sits Hondo can stay with Mullin outside and King can switch to Squid who will operate more where King is more familiar. Having Louie Dampier ready is a luxury here. He is considered 1 of the 3 best wing defenders of the 70s and a great shooter for his era. Of course the easiest way to stop Mullin and Baylor is forcing them to guard Bernard King.


Game Plan Offense:

Bernard King is one of the truly greatest offensive players to ever play. 27ppg on 54% FG. 27pts on 18FGA. My teams best scorer will be guarded by my opponents worst defender. This will create double teams which allows us to crash the offensive glass and and get open looks for Dumars and Love. Buck Williams is going to have a very tough time as he is not used to playing defense in space. He will be unable to crash the boards and he is his teams best rebounder. With Walton able to step out to the elbow Zo is going to have to choose between weakside and staying with his man. There will be lanes for Frasier and Dumars to drive with Zo not under the basket.
When King is on the bench Frasier can play pick and pop/roll with all 3 bigs who have range and can finish. Hondo is at his peak and essentially a poor mans LBJ with the ability to get a triple double any game. With Frasier/Dumars/Hondo/Love/Walton I have 5 elite passers that allow me to play Spurs/Hawks basketball for stretches. While a lineup of Frasier/Dumars/Hondo/Daniels/Walton gives me 5 FMVPs on the floor who know what it takes to elevate and dominate. Frasiers 36pts 19asts 10 reb game 7 came with West guarding him and of course Havlicek is always good for a great play or 2.



Conclusion:

My opponent's weakness on defense is SF which is my strength on offense. Mullin and Baylor are bad defenders who will be facing 2 elite scorers. My offense will be more effective as Dumars/Love do a better job at opening the paint for slashers than West/Mullin. My team doesn't have to double team the post like my opponent does and so my rotations are shorter and easier to complete. My team wins the rebounding, FT% and avgs more assists.

[trex_8063]

Interesting match-up. And for me, this one does kinda come down to the individual match-ups.

poopdamoop's best scorer is arguably Jerry West, and I do wonder what he could do in modern setting (no hand-checking, 3pt line)......though he just happens to play the position Warspite is probably strongest at defensively. Either one of Warspite's starting guards could be effective guarding him, or Hondo if he subs in at SG could be placed on him. Or even if he turns to Cheeks.....Cheeks gives up a good 3" or so, but he's like 180 lbs of gnats pestering you, not to mention he's 5th all-time in steals (and ball-handling is likely the weakest aspect of West's game). So if any team's back-court can hamper West, it's Warspite's.

Meanwhile, Warspite's best scorer happens to play the position where poopdamoop is weakest defensively. I think Baylor might be a marginal upgrade defensively from Mullin, but still not particularly noteworthy in that regard. If he switches off to put Squid on King, Mullin or Baylor (especially Mullin) is then going to have a little bit of trouble staying in front of Dumars (or Frazier), or chasing them around screens. Further, I think even Squid would have trouble with King's post-game and adequately contesting his lightning-fast release on the mid-range shot, too, especially since he's giving up 4" to King (though he does have long arms).
poopdamoop's best option for guarding King is probably Majerle, but I don't know that he really wants Majerle playing big minutes, as Maj is the weakest offensive option of his four SG/SF's.

Warspite's weakest position defensively is the PF, but that happens to be poopdamoop's weakest position offensively anyway.

poopdamoop's 2nd-best scorer is Mullin, and Warspite does have the option of harrying him with Havlicek (or even Dumars, who was not unaccustomed---or ineffective---at guarding taller wing players).

Warspite also has outstanding rim protection with either of his centers, and good pick n' roll defense with Walton at least (not sure about Daniels in that regard). While poopdamoop does probably have the single best defensive big in this match-up (Zo), his defense is going to take a significant step down whenever Yao subs in. Not that Yao's bad: he's a decent low post defender and a fair to decent shot-blocker (but no where near Zo's caliber in this regard), but is actually sub-par defending the pick n' roll.


So a few general aspects, and most importantly the specific match-ups favor Warspite, imo.
Vote: Team Warspite.

[penbeast0]

I... Having Louie Dampier ready is a luxury here. He is considered 1 of the 3 best wing defenders of the 70s and a great shooter for his era. ....

Really? I loved Dampier, possibly the greatest 3 point shooter in ABA history and with backcourt partner Darrel Carrier, the first pair to really make it a primary weapon. Then he transformed himself into a terrific pass first PG with extremely low turnovers. But this is the first I have heard that he was even an above average point defender (at 6-nothing), much less 1 of the 3 best wing defenders of the 70s. Maybe you are confusing him with Don Chaney or Joe Caldwell?

[JeepCSC]

All the rebounds to Warspite, as well as my vote.

[Warspite]

I... Having Louie Dampier ready is a luxury here. He is considered 1 of the 3 best wing defenders of the 70s and a great shooter for his era. ....

Really? I loved Dampier, possibly the greatest 3 point shooter in ABA history and with backcourt partner Darrel Carrier, the first pair to really make it a primary weapon. Then he transformed himself into a terrific pass first PG with extremely low turnovers. But this is the first I have heard that he was even an above average point defender (at 6-nothing), much less 1 of the 3 best wing defenders of the 70s. Maybe you are confusing him with Don Chaney or Joe Caldwell?

I got Dampier mixed up with WIllie Wise who I was thinking I had drafted. No worries as he is the 12th man and Im running a 7 man rotation.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #7:

Warspite (2) - trex_8063, JeepCSC

poopdamoop (0)