Accolades 90s to 2015/16 draft - Playoffs Round 2: LA Bird vs Quotatious (Quot advances)

[BdeRegt]

Post rotation, roster, write up

[LA Bird]

Roster (Regular season stats)
1995 Hakeem Olajuwon (28/11/4/56)
2003 Shawn Marion (21/10/2/54)
1990 Larry Bird (24/10/8/55)
1991 Alvin Robertson (14/6/6/54)
1991 Tim Hardaway (23/4/10/55)
1990 Bill Laimbeer (12/10/2/56)
2008 Ron Artest (21/6/4/54)
2016 James Harden (29/6/8/60)

Rotation
C: Olajuwon 38 / Laimbeer 10
PF: Bird 34 / Marion 14
SF: Marion 20 / Harden 16 / Artest 12
SG: Artest 20 / Robertson 14 / Harden 14
PG: Hardaway 34 / Robertson 8 / Harden 6

Writeup
Hakeem is better than Ewing and we have two all time great perimeter defenders in Artest and Alvin Robertson to guard Wade. Bird is fine at PF against Love and is more portable with his outstanding passing skills in the halfcourt. Tim Hardaway and Billups is more or less a draw. Marion can guard Rice/McHale in the frontcourt. We have Harden coming off the bench averaging 29.0 ppg, which is higher than any of Q's starter. We have the better offense and great defenders in Hakeem/Marion/Artest/Robertson for Quotatious's key offensive players. Vote LA Bird!

[Quotatious]

Players:

Patrick Ewing 1989-90 (All-NBA 1st team, 8 points)
Dwyane Wade 2005-06 (All-NBA 2nd team, 6 points)
Kevin Love 2013-14 (All-NBA 2nd team, 6 points)
Kevin McHale 1989-90 (All-Star, 4 points)
Chauncey Billups 2004-05 (All-Defensive 2nd team, 2 points)
Glen Rice 1991-92 (16+ PPG, 1 point)
Steve Smith 1999-00 (0 points)
Derrick McKey 1993-94 (0 points)

Total: 27/28 points

Rotation:

C - Ewing 38/McHale 10
PF - Love 30/McHale 18
SF - Rice 30/McKey 18
SG - Wade 30/Smith 18
PG - Billups 35/Wade 8/Smith 5

Writeup:

I would agree with LA BIrd that Hakeem is better than Ewing, but 1990 version of Ewing is clearly better than any other version of him, and he would be able to play Olajuwon much more evenly than he did in 1994. I mean, Ewing performed very well in 1990 playoffs, including against good bigs (Parish and McHale) as well as an all-time great defensive team, the Pistons.

'06 Wade vs '16 Harden is a matchup clearly in my team's favor, as Harden played no defense last year. Wade has a better chance of slowing down Harden, than vice versa.

Love/McHale vs 1990 Bird and 2003 Marion is also a good matchup for my team. Honestly, I think 2014 Love is just as good as 1990 Bird - Larry played on a stacked team and got eliminated by Ewing's Knicks in the first round, which were theoretically (on paper) clearly worse than his Celtics. McHale knows Bird as well as anybody, and would be a great defender against him. Bird and Marion have a worse chance of guarding Love and McHale in the post than vice-versa. Bird simply wasn't a good defender in 1990, his back was too much of a problem, and Kevin McHale is one of the best low post scorers of all-time, so he would be a big problem for Larry. Marion just isn't strong enough physically to battle peak Love inside. Matrix was a great defender, but more against wings or even point guards, than against bigs with the skill level of Love or McHale.

Billups had a big size and strength advantage over Hardaway. I'll try to let Chauncey work against Tim in the post on some possessions, he would be able to bully him down low (Billups was a very good post up player for a guard). I'll try to do the same if Steve Smith is in the game - I'll put Smitty in the post against Tim Hardaway or Harden, to exploit their defensive shortcomings (Smitty was a really good, crafty scorer from the post). My bigs can all shoot from the mid-range on a very high level, or in Love's case (and McHale's, to some extent), even from 3-point land, so that creates space for my guards to post up, and my bigs are still very much a scoring threat if Billups or Smith decide to pass the ball from the post, instead of attempting a shot.

Alvin Robertson was also a great defender, generally LA Bird has a team full of great perimeter defenders (Marion, Artest, Robertson), but Alvin was a better help defender than 1 on 1 defender, so I think Wade can get his against Robertson (Artest isn't quick enough to guard Wade). So, despite having a lot of great defenders to slow down Glen Rice, LA Bird doesn't have great personnel to guard Wade.

Good luck LA Bird. Seems like a pretty close matchup.

[8on]

Ewing/Love is pretty hard to beat. I don't think LA Bird has the answer to it, defensively.

vote: Quotatious

[BdeRegt]

I am a little concerned that Quot seems to plan for an offense of just a bunch of post ups. Post ups are one of the hardest ways to score in the modern NBA and I don't know if the best offense is built around just having Billups (Hardaway was a solid enough defender not to get destroyed in the post), Love, and McHale post up as primary offense. I think post ups take away a big part of the best offense for Quot which would through Wade/Ewing not posting up the secondary players. This strategy probably bothers me more as a Warriors fan as it was Mark Jackson's favorite thing to do which held them back.

Ewing always played Hakeem about equal if you look at head to head stats over their career. Ultimately the lack of real peak level players on LA Bird's team costs him here in my mind. Bird was not the same player in 1990 with his injuries. Hardaway is still young in his Warriors years and although great not quite the player he was when he was arguably the best PG in the NBA for a couple years in Miami. '08 Artest missed a lot of games and wasn't really a strong defender in Sacramento. Even if I disagree with offensive strategy, I think I have to go for Quot.

vote: Quotatious

[Snakebites]

I have been on record as really not being much of a fan of Kevin Love in these formats, but I really like the rest of Quotatious's team and think this is an optimal situation for Kevin Love, though his role on this team will be mostly as a floor spacer.

Kevin Mchale as the 6th man is really the difference maker here for me, in fact I'd have even started him in this matchup.

Vote Quotatious.

[LA Bird]

Ewing/Love is pretty hard to beat.

So is Hakeem/Bird...

I am a little concerned that Quot seems to plan for an offense of just a bunch of post ups. Post ups are one of the hardest ways to score in the modern NBA and I don't know if the best offense is built around just having Billups (Hardaway was a solid enough defender not to get destroyed in the post), Love, and McHale post up as primary offense. I think post ups take away a big part of the best offense for Quot which would through Wade/Ewing not posting up the secondary players. This strategy probably bothers me more as a Warriors fan as it was Mark Jackson's favorite thing to do which held them back.

I agree with this.

Ultimately the lack of real peak level players on LA Bird's team costs him here in my mind. Bird was not the same player in 1990 with his injuries. Hardaway is still young in his Warriors years and although great not quite the player he was when he was arguably the best PG in the NBA for a couple years in Miami.

24/10/8 is a career season for anybody else not named Larry Bird. I recall other judges in previous games mentioning how non-peak seasons didn't matter much but now, Hardaway's 23/4/10 and Bird's 24/10/8/ seasons are not good enough???

'08 Artest missed a lot of games and wasn't really a strong defender in Sacramento.

He played the minimum number of games required so I don't see how that is a problem.
Also, 2nd in the league in steals and Defensive RAPM say otherwise. Edit: 2nd in DRAPM among perimeter players (behind Battier)

[BdeRegt]

Ewing/Love is pretty hard to beat.

So is Hakeem/Bird...

I am a little concerned that Quot seems to plan for an offense of just a bunch of post ups. Post ups are one of the hardest ways to score in the modern NBA and I don't know if the best offense is built around just having Billups (Hardaway was a solid enough defender not to get destroyed in the post), Love, and McHale post up as primary offense. I think post ups take away a big part of the best offense for Quot which would through Wade/Ewing not posting up the secondary players. This strategy probably bothers me more as a Warriors fan as it was Mark Jackson's favorite thing to do which held them back.

I agree with this.

Ultimately the lack of real peak level players on LA Bird's team costs him here in my mind. Bird was not the same player in 1990 with his injuries. Hardaway is still young in his Warriors years and although great not quite the player he was when he was arguably the best PG in the NBA for a couple years in Miami.

24/10/8 is a career season for anybody else not named Larry Bird. I recall other judges in previous games mentioning how non-peak seasons didn't matter much but now, Hardaway's 23/4/10 and Bird's 24/10/8/ seasons are not good enough???

'08 Artest missed a lot of games and wasn't really a strong defender in Sacramento.

He played the minimum number of games required so I don't see how that is a problem.
Also, 2nd in the league in steals and Defensive RAPM say otherwise.

My issue with Bird is more on the defensive end. I agree Hardaway and Bird are still really good but in a game like this, little differences are all that decides things. MVP Bird was clearly a different level player than 90s post-injury bird. For Artest, DWS and DBPM had 2008 as Artest's worst defensive seasons. I don't think he focused as much defensively in 2008 as he was primary scorer for the Kings and not in title contention. Ultimately, little things are needed to differentiate these teams.

[Quotatious]

I am a little concerned that Quot seems to plan for an offense of just a bunch of post ups. Post ups are one of the hardest ways to score in the modern NBA and I don't know if the best offense is built around just having Billups (Hardaway was a solid enough defender not to get destroyed in the post), Love, and McHale post up as primary offense. I think post ups take away a big part of the best offense for Quot which would through Wade/Ewing not posting up the secondary players. This strategy probably bothers me more as a Warriors fan as it was Mark Jackson's favorite thing to do which held them back.

Warriors under Mark Jackson didn't have the right personnel to be a post-up heavy team, though (they still don't, today, but they are the best perimeter offensive team ever). David Lee in 2013 was their only quality post up player in the Jackson era. Patrick Ewing and Kevin McHale were elite post up players, even Love and Billups were good.

[BdeRegt]

I am a little concerned that Quot seems to plan for an offense of just a bunch of post ups. Post ups are one of the hardest ways to score in the modern NBA and I don't know if the best offense is built around just having Billups (Hardaway was a solid enough defender not to get destroyed in the post), Love, and McHale post up as primary offense. I think post ups take away a big part of the best offense for Quot which would through Wade/Ewing not posting up the secondary players. This strategy probably bothers me more as a Warriors fan as it was Mark Jackson's favorite thing to do which held them back.

Warriors under Mark Jackson didn't have the right personnel to be a post-up heavy team, though (they still don't, today, but they are the best perimeter offensive team ever). David Lee in 2013 was their only quality post up player in the Jackson era. Patrick Ewing and Kevin McHale were elite post up players, even Love and Billups were good.

I don't think it really matters the players in today's NBA. The rules have changed greatly from the days when Ewing and McHale played. Across the league, post ups are one of the most inefficient ways to score. Post ups are really only effective used as a way to start offense, draw doubles, and pass to open men to get the defense moving or if team has elite cutters off that post up. Zone defense and sportvu data showing how much players can help and recover has made it really hard to throw entry passes as well as get good position for a post up or attack once the player has the ball in the post.

[ChicagoSportsFan21]

Vote:

Spoiler:

Quotatious

Reasoning: I see Billups and McHale off the bench being the difference in this series. I think they will get their points offensively. Some critical players on LA Bird's have non-peak seasons, which could hurt him (most notably Bird).

[Laimbeer]

I'll agree Dream > Ewing, but not to the extent Wade > anything LA Bird has in the backcourt. It doesn't seem Harden is being given as much of a primary role as he could have.

Vote: Quo

[CellarDoor]

Was going to go LA, but it appears we've already got five.

[BdeRegt]

Quot advances

[Quotatious]

Wow, a sweep?

I'll say this right away - it was way closer than that, LA Bird. I didn't know who would win before the voting began. I thought it would be 5-3 or 5-4 one way or the other. You built a hell of a team and I'm not sure if mine is better, so respect for that.

[lilroddyb]

It was really close between these teams and I love both rosters but I would have voted for LA Bird, I love his build around Hakeem