Zonkerbl wrote:popper wrote:pancakes3 wrote:
... so a) the slates of fake electors; b) georgia vote solicitation; c) jan 6/pressuring Pence to not certify the votes are what... normal acts within the bounds of free and fair elections?
I don't think anything about the 2020 election was normal, including Trump's behaviour. My view is that he (and many others in the country) thought the election was manipulated. He was angry and his actions reflect a rather desperate attempt to right a perceived wrong. It didn't work. I'm comfortable with the ability of the other co-equal branches of government to block and hold to account power hungry politicians that may try to skirt the law. Maybe I'm naive in that regard. Who knows.
well it's interesting you say that because that's exactly what the article I posted was about. That article posits that Trump is precisely the kind of phenomenon the founding fathers worried would destroy Democracy, precisely because the idea of the co-equal branches of government being reliable checks on each other assumes that every participant actually wants Democracy to continue.
...and acts in Good Faith so that it will.
From what I have seen, there is a considerable cadre of the GOP that so fears their declining
influence and who have decided that the other side is such a severe threat to what they
believe, that extraordinary ie anti-democratic measures are required in order to 'save' the country.
There are now several members
of the RNC (which consists of 2 members from each state) who
now have been indicted in the false electors scheme, a flagrantly anti-democratic plan,
not to mention a shocking development, criminally indicted persons holding national positions in the GOP.
Think about that. What could be more mainstream within a political party than a member,
or multiple members holding national leadership positions, who have conspired to overthrow an election. A disdain
for democracy has thoroughly infected the GOP.
Zonkerbl wrote: It is entirely possible for a candidate, with the support of his voters, to decide that Democracy ends, today. That Trump has pretty much said as much. That there have, in fact, been anti-American forces pushing against democracy since the very founding of this country. None of them had the support of one of the major political parties until now.
Unless you consider what is going on in Russia "democracy." That would be naive, I think.
Tim Snyder, Yale historian and author
https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/-another-window-into-trump-corruption-weissmann-explains-new-docs-case-material-209941061987Movements towards fascism and authoritarianism are not new in America.
Maddow's best selling book Prequel describes this
#1 NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER • Rachel Maddow traces the fight to preserve American democracy back to World War II, when a handful of committed public servants and brave private citizens thwarted far-right plotters trying to steer our nation toward an alliance with the Nazis.
“A ripping read—well rendered, fast-paced and delivered with the same punch and assurance that she brings to a broadcast. . . . The parallels to the present day are strong, even startling.”—The New York Times (Editors’ Choice)
Inspired by her research for the hit podcast Ultra, Rachel Maddow charts the rise of a wild American strain of authoritarianism that has been alive on the far-right edge of our politics for the better part of a century. Before and even after our troops had begun fighting abroad in World War II, a clandestine network flooded the country with disinformation aimed at sapping the strength of the U.S. war effort and persuading Americans that our natural alliance was with the Axis, not against it. It was a sophisticated and shockingly well-funded campaign to undermine democratic institutions, promote antisemitism, and destroy citizens’ confidence in their elected leaders, with the ultimate goal of overthrowing the U.S. government and installing authoritarian rule.
That effort worked—tongue and groove—alongside an ultra-right paramilitary movement that stockpiled bombs and weapons and trained for mass murder and violent insurrection.
I suspect you might try to dismiss this. Maddow is exactly the kind of person, a lesbian and academic,
that many on the right. *Not saying you are either biased against LGBTQ people or academics. I am saying
that many of your fellow Republicans are. And they are accepted into the party.
History tells us that there are things in the Constitution that were included to in order to get
the slave holding southern colonies to sign on which are clearly anti-democratic and in need
of reform starting with the electoral college and the 2 senators per state US Senate. But the
GOP recognizes that if those 2 things were reformed or eliminated, the GOP would completely
lose power. I don't hear good faith objections to these reforms so I'm not naive enough
to believe they will happen. But I do believe we would have a less dysfunctional govt if they did.