RealGM

nate33 wrote:After 20 games, Jordan Poole is worst in the league in on/off differential by a country mile (if you ignore two Denver Nugget low-minute garbage-time players who have the misfortune of only being "on" when Jokic is "off")



It's really hard to describe how bad he has been.

Yeah i hated the trade at the time it happened but i am surprised just how bad hes been. I guess he will be our tank commander for a minimum of the next two years.

What's even more horrific is that he is supposed to be an offensive player. We knew his defense was going to be bad but his offense was supposed to be helpful. Instead, his offensive metrics are historically awful.

He is 22nd worst in the league on TS% on high usage.

He ranks 10th worst in the league in "TS% added", which combines TS% and usage. He has cost the team a total of 40 points just by missing shots that a person with a league average TS% would make. Here, his FT rate helps him a bit. If you look just at eFG% added, he ranks 6th worst in the league.

He is 14th worst in the league in turnovers per minute.

He is 11st worst in the league in rebound percentage on a team that has no good rebounders to suck up available rebounds. (A bad ranking here could be forgiven if you played alongside Jokic, Gobert or Capela, but Poole has no excuse.)

In the 584 minutes that Poole has played, the Wizards are being outscored by 18.6 points per 100 possessions

In the 425 minutes that Poole has sat, the Wizards are OUTPLAYING the competition by 4.4 points per 100 possessions.

(To be fair, if you remove Anthony "garbage time proxy" Gill's minutes from the Poole off time, the Wizards are being outscored by 0.5 points per 100 possessions in Poole's absence.)

Poor Daniel Gafford is really getting screwed by Jordan Poole.

I noted that Poole's horrific net rating isn't really all that bad when he shares the court with Gafford. With Gafford alongside him, the net rating is merely -12.2, way better than the -18.6 rating for all of Poole's minutes. It turns out, Gafford has been doing a yeoman's job of keeping the team afloat.

As soon as Gafford sits, the team just totally falls apart. In the minutes when Gafford sits and Poole is still on the floor, the net rating declines all the way to -30.7! Poole's defense, unmitigated by Gafford's rim protection, is an apocalyptic disaster!

Meanwhile, in the 96 minutes when Gafford is on the floor and Poole is off, the Wizards have a respectable net rating of just -3.9. This is noteworthy because these minutes are presumably mostly against starting-caliber competition. It's a small sample size, but our non-Poole starters, when facing the opposition's starters, are actually respectably competitive.

(It's one thing to note how well the team plays without Poole, but that's mostly just saying our bench is competitive with other team's benches, which is nice, but nothing to write home about. The Gafford numbers suggest that our starters are competitive with other starters, as long as Poole isn't dragging them down. And that's a much bigger deal.)

The TL;DR version is: bench Poole and never play him again!

It's a sad spectacle, to be sure.

When will Poole himself start to care about how bad he's playing, I wonder?

Kevin Broom eviscerates Jordan Poole in his latest column at Bullets Forever:

Okay, in fairness, Jordan Poole isn’t the Wizards’ only problem. But his play so far this season is a gargantuan whopper of an anchor on anything they hope to accomplish. Aside from just losing, of course.

Let’s start simple: the Wizards are -19.5 points per 100 possessions when Poole’s on the floor. That’s the worst mark on the team. And yes, that number is in very large part because of him. I’ll come back to it.

Poole averages 62.7 possessions per game. That works out to -12.2 per game. For the season, Washington’s scoring margin is -11.1. With a bit of math, we can see that the Wizards are +1.1 per game when he’s sitting.

The array of improvements when he’s out of the game are kinda amazing. Here’s a partial list: more assists, better three-point shooting (38.3% vs. 32.7%), higher three-point attempt rate, fewer midrange shots, faster offensive possessions, longer defensive possessions, more fouls drawn, better offensive and defensive rebounding, better defensive shot quality, fewer opponent at-rim field goal attempts...the list could continue, but you get the point.

and later on:

On offense, Poole’s 95 offensive rating (points produced per 100 possessions used) is -19.4 per 100 possessions — the eighth worst mark in the NBA so far this season among players with at least 150 minutes of playing time. In my +PTS (plus-points) metric, which compares a player’s efficiency with league average efficiency on the same number of possessions, he’s third worst. His possession usage has been a total of 69.8 points below average. Only Cade Cunningham and Victor Wembanyama have cost their teams more.

And here’s the thing, Poole’s defensive impact has been even worse. He routinely fails basic defensive chores on the perimeter, doesn’t bother to get involved with rebounding, and has a penchant for jogging back in transition.

So far this season, the Wizards offense has been -5.6 points per 100 possessions relative to average when he’s in the game. On defense: -13.9. Yeesh.

nate33 wrote:Kevin Broom eviscerates Jordan Poole in his latest column at Bullets Forever:

Okay, in fairness, Jordan Poole isn’t the Wizards’ only problem. But his play so far this season is a gargantuan whopper of an anchor on anything they hope to accomplish. Aside from just losing, of course.

Let’s start simple: the Wizards are -19.5 points per 100 possessions when Poole’s on the floor. That’s the worst mark on the team. And yes, that number is in very large part because of him. I’ll come back to it.

Poole averages 62.7 possessions per game. That works out to -12.2 per game. For the season, Washington’s scoring margin is -11.1. With a bit of math, we can see that the Wizards are +1.1 per game when he’s sitting.

The array of improvements when he’s out of the game are kinda amazing. Here’s a partial list: more assists, better three-point shooting (38.3% vs. 32.7%), higher three-point attempt rate, fewer midrange shots, faster offensive possessions, longer defensive possessions, more fouls drawn, better offensive and defensive rebounding, better defensive shot quality, fewer opponent at-rim field goal attempts...the list could continue, but you get the point.

and later on:

On offense, Poole’s 95 offensive rating (points produced per 100 possessions used) is -19.4 per 100 possessions — the eighth worst mark in the NBA so far this season among players with at least 150 minutes of playing time. In my +PTS (plus-points) metric, which compares a player’s efficiency with league average efficiency on the same number of possessions, he’s third worst. His possession usage has been a total of 69.8 points below average. Only Cade Cunningham and Victor Wembanyama have cost their teams more.

And here’s the thing, Poole’s defensive impact has been even worse. He routinely fails basic defensive chores on the perimeter, doesn’t bother to get involved with rebounding, and has a penchant for jogging back in transition.

So far this season, the Wizards offense has been -5.6 points per 100 possessions relative to average when he’s in the game. On defense: -13.9. Yeesh.

Thanks Nate, truly shocking.

Looking at other players, Deni is the best of the team when looking at Kevin Broom's PPA so far in the season:

Deni 122
Kuz 116
Jones 108
Gafford 107
Bilal 87
Anyone else 60 (Kispert) or below...fyi- Poole's PPA is 28!!!

It's obvious who should be the starting 5: Jones-Bilal-Deni-Kuz-Gafford

nate33 wrote:Kevin Broom eviscerates Jordan Poole in his latest column at Bullets Forever:

Okay, in fairness, Jordan Poole isn’t the Wizards’ only problem. But his play so far this season is a gargantuan whopper of an anchor on anything they hope to accomplish. Aside from just losing, of course.

Let’s start simple: the Wizards are -19.5 points per 100 possessions when Poole’s on the floor. That’s the worst mark on the team. And yes, that number is in very large part because of him. I’ll come back to it.

Poole averages 62.7 possessions per game. That works out to -12.2 per game. For the season, Washington’s scoring margin is -11.1. With a bit of math, we can see that the Wizards are +1.1 per game when he’s sitting.

The array of improvements when he’s out of the game are kinda amazing. Here’s a partial list: more assists, better three-point shooting (38.3% vs. 32.7%), higher three-point attempt rate, fewer midrange shots, faster offensive possessions, longer defensive possessions, more fouls drawn, better offensive and defensive rebounding, better defensive shot quality, fewer opponent at-rim field goal attempts...the list could continue, but you get the point.

and later on:

On offense, Poole’s 95 offensive rating (points produced per 100 possessions used) is -19.4 per 100 possessions — the eighth worst mark in the NBA so far this season among players with at least 150 minutes of playing time. In my +PTS (plus-points) metric, which compares a player’s efficiency with league average efficiency on the same number of possessions, he’s third worst. His possession usage has been a total of 69.8 points below average. Only Cade Cunningham and Victor Wembanyama have cost their teams more.

And here’s the thing, Poole’s defensive impact has been even worse. He routinely fails basic defensive chores on the perimeter, doesn’t bother to get involved with rebounding, and has a penchant for jogging back in transition.

So far this season, the Wizards offense has been -5.6 points per 100 possessions relative to average when he’s in the game. On defense: -13.9. Yeesh.

The conversation has to be had if continuing to have him start is good for either Poole or rehabbing his value? To me, as an organization, not just WUJ, you say, "Go to the bench, get your head into a team concept of basketball and start doing the little things, as well as figuring out an offensive approach that is going to be sustainable and at least average offensively, or your minutes are going to get severely cut. We don't expect you to be All-NBA defense, but you can't also act like it's beneath you."

At some point, you are going to lose credibility treating Poole, who is brand new to the team, as special or deserving of so much more latitude than anyone else it becomes laughable. If our longest tenured player Deni was playing like this, his ass wouldn't see the light of day. If you want credibility as an organization you can't let Poole just come in here, play the way he has, and just turn a blind eye to it with the mantra "we're seeing if he can play his way out of it."

You are setting a precedent here with young players, and who you want to be as basketball organization. If Poole, doesn't want to play nice, we have the luxury of being non-competitive and telling him to go piss off. Enough is enough.

CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:The conversation has to be had if continuing to have him start is good for either Poole or rehabbing his value? To me, as an organization, not just WUJ, you say, "Go to the bench, get your head into a team concept of basketball and start doing the little things, as well as figuring out an offensive approach that is going to be sustainable and at least average offensively, or your minutes are going to get severely cut. We don't expect you to be All-NBA defense, but you can't also act like it's beneath you."

At some point, you are going to lose credibility treating Poole, who is brand new to the team, as special or deserving of so much more latitude than anyone else it becomes laughable. If our longest tenured player Deni was playing like this, his ass wouldn't see the light of day. If you want credibility as an organization you can't let Poole just come in here, play the way he has, and just turn a blind eye to it with the mantra "we're seeing if he can play his way out of it."

You are setting a precedent here with young players, and who you want to be as basketball organization. If Poole, doesn't want to play nice, we have the luxury of being non-competitive and telling him to go piss off. Enough is enough.

Well said! I agree completely.

I think Poole should be banished to the third string. I'd probably start one of Kispert or Shamet in his place, with the other getting the backup SG minutes. (I like Coulibaly off the bench at SF to provide some wing defense when Avdija sits. As long as Coulibaly is getting 28 minutes a night, it doesn't matter to me if he starts or not.) Heck, I'd have Davis ahead of Poole on the depth chart as well.

Draymond Green might be available if you want to bring him in to solve your Poole problem.

Frichuela wrote:

nate33 wrote:Kevin Broom eviscerates Jordan Poole in his latest column at Bullets Forever:

Okay, in fairness, Jordan Poole isn’t the Wizards’ only problem. But his play so far this season is a gargantuan whopper of an anchor on anything they hope to accomplish. Aside from just losing, of course.

Let’s start simple: the Wizards are -19.5 points per 100 possessions when Poole’s on the floor. That’s the worst mark on the team. And yes, that number is in very large part because of him. I’ll come back to it.

Poole averages 62.7 possessions per game. That works out to -12.2 per game. For the season, Washington’s scoring margin is -11.1. With a bit of math, we can see that the Wizards are +1.1 per game when he’s sitting.

The array of improvements when he’s out of the game are kinda amazing. Here’s a partial list: more assists, better three-point shooting (38.3% vs. 32.7%), higher three-point attempt rate, fewer midrange shots, faster offensive possessions, longer defensive possessions, more fouls drawn, better offensive and defensive rebounding, better defensive shot quality, fewer opponent at-rim field goal attempts...the list could continue, but you get the point.

and later on:

On offense, Poole’s 95 offensive rating (points produced per 100 possessions used) is -19.4 per 100 possessions — the eighth worst mark in the NBA so far this season among players with at least 150 minutes of playing time. In my +PTS (plus-points) metric, which compares a player’s efficiency with league average efficiency on the same number of possessions, he’s third worst. His possession usage has been a total of 69.8 points below average. Only Cade Cunningham and Victor Wembanyama have cost their teams more.

And here’s the thing, Poole’s defensive impact has been even worse. He routinely fails basic defensive chores on the perimeter, doesn’t bother to get involved with rebounding, and has a penchant for jogging back in transition.

So far this season, the Wizards offense has been -5.6 points per 100 possessions relative to average when he’s in the game. On defense: -13.9. Yeesh.

Thanks Nate, truly shocking.

Looking at other players, Deni is the best of the team when looking at Kevin Broom's PPA so far in the season:

Deni 122
Kuz 116
Jones 108
Gafford 107
Bilal 87
Anyone else 60 (Kispert) or below...fyi- Poole's PPA is 28!!!

It's obvious who should be the starting 5: Jones-Bilal-Deni-Kuz-Gafford

Can someone explain to me how Kyle Kuzma has such a high ppa. Looking at his ws/48, his ortg, and his ts%, he looks awful to me. Almost as bad as Poole. Why does Kevin broom rate him so highly?

leswizards wrote:

Frichuela wrote:

nate33 wrote:Kevin Broom eviscerates Jordan Poole in his latest column at Bullets Forever:



and later on:

Thanks Nate, truly shocking.

Looking at other players, Deni is the best of the team when looking at Kevin Broom's PPA so far in the season:

Deni 122
Kuz 116
Jones 108
Gafford 107
Bilal 87
Anyone else 60 (Kispert) or below...fyi- Poole's PPA is 28!!!

It's obvious who should be the starting 5: Jones-Bilal-Deni-Kuz-Gafford

Can someone explain to me how Kyle Kuzma has such a high ppa. Looking at his ws/48, his ortg, and his ts%, he looks awful to me. Almost as bad as Poole. Why does Kevin broom rate him so highly?

?
20% more assist, 20% less turnovers, 40% less fouls, 10% more efficient on 10% higher usage.

Kuz has a Siakam stat line offensively at a higher usage rate.

Ah, the amazingly sucky thread, a tradition unlike any other

First it was Javale McGEEEEEEEEEE every week on Shaqtin now its SHAQTIN A POOLE, somehow we always end up with players destined to be shaqtin a fool legends. the curse of les boulez is alive and well

At this time of year, I prefer to look at it as the blessing of les boulez. We sing the praises of Kevin Seraphin and the handles of Shammgod. And Party John Ramos himself.

Bumping this thread b/c what the heck is going on with this dude. His only real potential contribution is scoring and even on offense he's checked out. How you going to collect 30 mil to be terrible at everything??

pcbothwel wrote:

leswizards wrote:Can someone explain to me how Kyle Kuzma has such a high ppa. Looking at his ws/48, his ortg, and his ts%, he looks awful to me. Almost as bad as Poole. Why does Kevin broom rate him so highly?

?
20% more assist, 20% less turnovers, 40% less fouls, 10% more efficient on 10% higher usage.

Kuz has a Siakam stat line offensively at a higher usage rate.

Beyond someone comparing Kuzma to Siakam, no one has explained how Kuzma is rated so highly by Kevin Broom. I just don’t get it.

Per 100 possessions: Kuzma takes 6 more shots than siakam (5.5 as 3PA), yet takes 3 fewer free throws. Siakam is the better rebounder, has more assists, gets more steals, turns over the ball less. Kuzma does get more blocks and fouls less.

Siakam’s ortg, drtg, ws/48, & ts% are all better.

I don’t see the comparison

By the way, Kuzma now has a negative ws/48 for the season.

Kuzma and Poole are arguably 2 of the worst players on this team, yet thanks to wuj, they are leading the team in mpg.

9 and 20 wrote:Bumping this thread b/c what the heck is going on with this dude. His only real potential contribution is scoring and even on offense he's checked out. How you going to collect 30 mil to be terrible at everything??

Its pretty crazy. I find myself rooting hard for Jordan these days, because I feel sorry for the dude... he seems to becoming the laughingstock of the league. Every time he manages a possession without dibbling the ball off his knee or throwing a lob into the third row I get irrationally happy. He'll come down, take two dribbles, pass it successfully to Deni, and I'll yell "Good job Jordan! Good pass!" at the TV screen. I feel like a Dad watching my eight year old at pee-wee practice.

But yeah, the bar is now set incredibly low for Jordan and he still isn't clearing it, so I don't know what the end game here is. Can we send him to the GoGo? I think the major issue is that despite being in the league for four years, he hasn't developed his handles or his finishing moves. Seemingly every time he manages to get penetration into the lane, he ends up getting his shot blocked or turning it over. Unlike Kispert, he doesn't seem to have any pump fakes or step-throughs or other finishing moves in the lane. I guess that's what four years of playing with Steph Curry does to you... the only thing he knows how to do is take wide open shots. Another line on Steph's GOAT application: managed to make Jordan Poole look like a decent player for four years.

I will say this about Jordan: in the last couple games I've seen an increase in defensive effort. He's so small that it hasn't made much difference, but it does make me think he cares about how badly he has been playing. It remains to be seen if he can do anything to reverse the trend.

GoneShammGone wrote:But yeah, the bar is now set incredibly low for Jordan and he still isn't clearing it, so I don't know what the end game here is. Can we send him to the GoGo? I think the major issue is that despite being in the league for four years, he hasn't developed his handles or his finishing moves. Seemingly every time he manages to get penetration into the lane, he ends up getting his shot blocked or turning it over. Unlike Kispert, he doesn't seem to have any pump fakes or step-throughs or other finishing moves in the lane. I guess that's what four years of playing with Steph Curry does to you... the only thing he knows how to do is take wide open shots. Another line on Steph's GOAT application: managed to make Jordan Poole look like a decent player for four years.

This may be a cautionary tale to consider if we trade for any other of Golden State's young players (Wiggins or Moody). Have any of Golden State's castoffs gone on to excel on some other team? Wiseman was a bust. Poole was a bust. Harrison Barnes was meh. Juan Toscano-Anderson was terrible. GPII was a bust in Portland (though injuries played a role).