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Official John Wall Appreciation Thread

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Post#1441 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:41 pm by fishercob

Here's some "appreciation" via ESPN's Chris Broussard. It's pretty brutal. This is insider, so I am posting the whole article; please click the link so ESPN at least gets the page view though!

Has John Wall hit his Ceiling?
One of the most intriguing young players in the league returned to action last week. John Wall and his blazing, high-wire act are back from a knee injury and, finally, there's a spark of life in the Washington Wizards' franchise.

Wall, a third-year point guard, is unquestionably one of the most exciting players in the world. Liable to dunk on an entire team at any time, Wall is must-see TV.

But that's about all we know about the 6-foot-4 lightning bolt. Two up-and-down, at-times-dazzling, at-times-exasperating seasons have left us without answers as to how good Wall will eventually be.

Sometimes that's how it is; no one would've predicted greatness for John Stockton, Gary Payton, Steve Nash or Chauncey Billups after their first two seasons, so Wall's inconsistent play so far is not necessarily a definitive statement about what his future holds.

But other point guards, particularly recently, have defined themselves as future perennial All-Stars much quicker than Wall. I'm talking about guys like Chris Paul, Kyrie Irving and Derrick Rose.

Wall's numbers are fairly strong. He's averaged 16.3 points and 8.1 assists over his first two seasons, but he's also committed 3.8 turnovers a game while shooting about 41 percent from the floor. So what does it all mean? How good does Wall project to be?

To find out, we asked several NBA experts who are paid to assess talent, potential and productivity for their thoughts on Wall. Here's what two NBA team executives and two scouts think of the No. 1 pick of the 2010 draft.


The Eastern Conference executive:
"His stock never should've been as high as it was. His whole game is based on straight-line speed. He doesn't have good lateral moves in the half court. He's not a shooter, he's not leader, he's not a guy you can build a team around. What he is is a better version of Tyreke Evans.

"
He's not a shooter, he's not leader, he's not a guy you can build a team around. What he is is a better version of Tyreke Evans.
"
-- An Eastern Conference executive
"If you build your team around Wall, you're not building a strong playoff team. He doesn't have any pace to his game. He just has blinding speed. When Jason Kidd was young, he didn't have pace either. All he had was blinding speed. The difference, though, was that Kidd had native playmaking ability. He used his blinding speed to get other guys shots. Wall uses his speed to get to the rim every time and he doesn't make anybody better.

"I like him as a kid, and I hope for his sake that he watched enough tape while he was injured to appreciate pace. I also hope he likes Bradley Beal and realizes that he's a guy he can throw the ball to. You can certainly argue that over his first two seasons, he didn't have anyone to throw the ball to.''

The Western Conference executive:
"When you talk about the perception of him coming out of college, he got the benefit of being from Kentucky. … That probably led to him being a bit overrated. He definitely has not yet established himself as a great player, but you have to factor in the situation in Washington. How is that impacting him? It's easy to pounce on him, but a lot of people around the league are blaming the situation in Washington more than they're blaming him.''

The Eastern Conference scout:
"When he entered the league, I thought he could improve and one day get to that elite status. But judging by the way he's played so far, I'd say, 'No, he's not going to be an elite point guard.' He's so limited. He's not a great decision-maker and he's not a great scorer, so those two things right there keep him from entering the class of Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Kyrie Irving, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook and those guys. He's not in that class. He's a tremendous athlete going north and south. I see a guy who thinks 'shoot first, pass second.' Maybe that's because he's on a bad team, but I think those are his instincts -- shoot first, pass second. And I think his jumper, or his lack of a jumper, is an Achilles' heel for him.

"I think of Wall as a poor man's Westbrook. Both are great athletes playing point guard and both are really, really fast. They both finish strong at the rim. I think that's one of the best things about Wall's game -- that he can get to the hole and finish. But I think he's a tier below Westbrook and those other elite guys. Yeah, Westbrook isn't a great decision-maker and his game is based largely on his athleticism, but he is also a good shooter. I hate to say Wall can't be like Westbrook because he's such a young kid, but I really don't think he can. I don't think he's in the class of Westbrook. When the ball comes off Westbrook's hand, it looks good. When it comes off Wall's hand, it's, 'Man, that thing ain't going in.' Can Wall get to that elite status? I have my doubts. Wall needed to stay in college longer. But he was going to be picked so high that you can't blame him for leaving.''

Another Eastern Conference scout:
"My general feeling is that Wall isn't a guy you build a team around. He's not a franchise guy. He's a very good player, but I'm getting that Steve Francis feeling. He's a very similar player to Francis. They're damn near identical. Now some people may immediately say, 'Wait a minute, he's better than Steve Francis.' But they're just remembering the end of Francis' career. Remember, that guy made some All-Star teams. Both are athletic guys playing point guard who really aren't necessarily point guards. They don't shoot it well, they're not the best decision-makers. They're very exciting, very explosive guys who can make plays. One minute they're exciting, the next minute they're boneheaded. They do so many things well that you can't help but appreciate their talent. They're nice players to have, but they can't be your franchise guy. They're more like a number 3 guy if you're going to be a really good team. To be fair, Wall will pass the ball. He's a little more of a point guard than Francis was. Francis was a little more of a scorer, more shoot first than Wall.

"Russell Westbrook is another great comparison. He's another tremendous athlete who's playing point guard and who often does some boneheaded stuff. But his talent is so great that you say, 'That's OK.' But Westbrook kind of underscores the point I'm making about Wall. You have to have a Kevin Durant and a couple of other guys with him. Oklahoma had Durant and Harden with Westbrook, so he's one of two or three guys; he's not your main guy. If you put Wall in Oklahoma and Westbrook in Washington, the Wizards would still suck and Oklahoma would still be good.''

"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
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Post#1442 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:55 pm by nuposse04

Are you sure Broussard wasn't asking some causticly hating RealGMers? I want to know what his sources were..."Eastern conference scout" my ass.

He does have flaws, but it isn't like they're impossibly difficult to amend.
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Post#1443 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:46 pm by AFM

"I think his instinct is shoot first, pass second"

WTF? Have these guys watched Wall play?
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Post#1444 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:54 pm by AFM

Terrible article. Just a slander piece really. Wall is nothing like Steve Francis. NOTHING like him at all!!
Pretty sure that's SVG talking too.
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Post#1445 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:00 pm by dangermouse

They haven't seen him this year. I think he looks more in control out there than previous years. He has more than 2 gears now.

The only thing they are right about is that he can't shoot. That game against the Kings he was launching brick after brick, they weren't even close... :/
Fri Jul 5, 2013 4:36 am by dangermouse
dangermouse wrote:44 is my best guess.

I think we make the playoffs, no lower than 6th seed.
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Post#1446 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:28 pm by DMVleGeND

I actually agree w/ a lot of the points the executives and scouts bring up like him not being a good shooter, not understanding pace, and not having good lateral moves in the half court, but there were also some completely asinine statements like "he doesn't make anybody better."
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Post#1447 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:41 pm by GhostsOfGil

CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:That's a ridiculous question. I wouldn't make a judgement of a player based on a him coming back from 4 months of injury, only having played 3 games. Frankly, I think he's played great in limited minutes since his return, save two missed free throws. Yes the jumper has me a bit worried, but give him some time to get comfortable.


Yes but my original point still stands. His per 36 minute statistics are through the rough. Even if he sustains this level of play I'd be worried since his over all impact has been less then steller. I understand he's coming back from an injury so I'm trying to withhold judgement but I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.
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Post#1448 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:45 pm by GhostsOfGil

Wow fish. Just read that. I thought I was being critical of Wall but some of those statements are just ludicrous.
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Post#1449 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:18 pm by tontoz

Those guys get paid for that crap? Wall is nothing like Francis. His playmaking is far better than Westbrook.

Sure he can't shoot which is a major concern but it seems like a lot of those guys haven't seen much of Wall.
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Post#1450 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:56 pm by TGW

LOL at Steve Francis. Broussard should have just left out that comment because it's one of the worse comparisons of two players I've ever seen.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Post#1451 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm by B-easy

What i got out of that article is that no one watches wizards games.
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Post#1452 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:22 pm by hands11

CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:That's a ridiculous question. I wouldn't make a judgement of a player based on a him coming back from 4 months of injury, only having played 3 games. Frankly, I think he's played great in limited minutes since his return, save two missed free throws. Yes the jumper has me a bit worried, but give him some time to get comfortable.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ljo01.html

His ast % is way up and his TOV is down. So is is USG% and his ORtg and DRtg have improved. And PER has make a big jump.

He TS and eFG are basically the same as they have been in the past.

After just 3 games. I would say he has returned a more efficient player.

Here is what the number look like for Wall, Beal, Crawford, Price

http://bkref.com/tiny/A2azZ
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Post#1453 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:53 pm by AFM

Wall is just like Francis and Yao Ming is just like Nate Robinson
What a blockhead...
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Post#1454 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:02 am by hands11

AFM wrote:"I think his instinct is shoot first, pass second"

WTF? Have these guys watched Wall play?


Not as much as we have. Those are the observations of a casual observer who probably only watch national televised games or something.

I understand where those comments come from. Wall has played like that in stretches. Sometimes long stretches. I have myself call him a crash dummy. He has played in stretches where he only had one gear in a straight line and went right down the court not passing. That was the beginning of last year. Thats when CCJ and myself were the most concerned about him and wondered if he would ever figure it out. Articles were posted about how he is more of a track star then a basketball player. Concerns about his upside may have been the greatest when this was going on.

But as the season moved on, he eventually found a change of pace move and we all rejoiced.

Then he lost it again and we :banghead:

And then, he arrived. The Brazilian Jesus :bowdown: :meditate:

John finally had a legit post player to work with. And that is when things started to change. He still needed a legit spot up catch and shoot SG ( which we now have in TheRealDealBeal ) but what casual none Wiz junky can put that in perceptive. Nene only arrive very last in the season last year and he didn't even play every game. They did go on a win streak but come... it was the end of the year...the competition was weak... good teams shut if down...

But they forget they did beat two teams that were in the playoff run. They were not tanking. But that is just two games. And it was so so long ago. Since then, Wall has been injured so all they have to go one is what they remember.

See.. They really haven't followed John and they just don't have anything to go on other then the bad stuff they say over his first two seasons while the team had been blow up and had a revolving roster.

But we can see the potential more because we have more context.

Wall now has Nene again. And now he has Beal. That changes everything. We know Wall is a pass first PG that is going to find those two. We know he isn't a Westbrook, but he can be a Kidd or a Rondo type. We also know that Wall is a leader. The one thing they did say that was true was, there wasn't a single player you could have brought to the Wizards as a PG as a first or second year player that was going to have them winning. Not even the beloved Kyrie... who admittedly, I said was more NBA ready then Wall and I even wanted to trade Wall for him the day Kyrie was drafted. But now that Wall has some talent to run with and he is in his 3rd year, I like a pure PG like Wall. Specially because he is more focused on his defense. Kyrie will never be that.

So, a lot of what those people wrote, I get where they are coming from. It is their opinion given their limited amount of time they have spent with their eyes on the product and intimately studying the situation. But why would they study it. The Wizards have been bad and its not like Wall was available for a trade.

They will see. Casual observers are lagers to current facts. Wall can be an elite PG ala Kidd/Rondo.
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Post#1455 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:11 am by hands11

DMVleGeND wrote:I actually agree w/ a lot of the points the executives and scouts bring up like him not being a good shooter, not understanding pace, and not having good lateral moves in the half court, but there were also some completely asinine statements like "he doesn't make anybody better."


Yeah, that is a pretty asinine thing to say. You can already see how he is making the game easier for Beal. And Beal is making the game easier for Wall.

Wall is a passer. He wants to find player in their spots for open looks. Who did he have that could do that catch and shoot?

Nick ? Nick always had to dribble around before he shot. And he was very streaky. Crawford also wasn't really a catch and shoot player.

Only catch and shoot players they had last year was Martin, Mason, Cook and may James S. And none of them started or where even there the whole year.

Beal is the exact type of player the Wizards have needed to highlight Walls skills.

So yeah, that is a pretty asinine thing to say.
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Post#1456 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:53 am by nate33

Everything was right about the article except the part about Wall being shoot first and pass second. That's absurd. Yes, Wall can't shoot. Yes, Wall is a straight line runner. Yes, Wall isn't the greatest decision maker. But not a PG? That's just stupid.

As we've discussed before, for Wall, it all boils down to his jumper. If he can get good enough to force teams to come around on top of the pick, Wall can be elite. If defenders can go under the screen, Wall will never be more than a 2nd tier PG. It's that simple.

The troubling thing is that his form barely looks any better. His shot is broken.
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Post#1457 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:59 am by AFM

Yeah. The Steve Francis comparison was boggling.
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Post#1458 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:15 am by Illmatic21

I can excuse most of the asinine comments in that article as coming from people who just don't bother watching Wizards games. But to call him a shoot first PG? That's actually hilarious. Wall himself would laugh at that, he can't even shoot.

Since when does a shoot first PG average 14 attempts per game (to go with 8 assists)?
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Post#1459 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:06 am by hands11

http://bkref.com/tiny/46551

Comparison to Rondo, The Glove, and Kidd 2nd years.

Personally, I'm not really concerned with this jump shot and I don't think it is the determining factor for him. It will come in time. He is a good FT shooter. Eventually he will extend his range.

Wall being great or better or whatever you want to call it is going to start happening this year and its going to happening from experience, hard work and greatly based on his having better options.

He is a pass first PG who seemed to be focused on being a great defender. He talks with the Glove. He can one man fast break and hit open targets. He can drive and finish. He gets to the line a lot. More then any of those other 3 did in their second years. He is a great passer.

When you look at what he did last year with no catch and shoot options and Nene for only the end of the year....

Just wait and see what he does with some options.

His numbers look good when you compare them to other great PGs in their 2nd years.
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Post#1460 Re: Official John Wall Appreciation Thread
Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:53 am by JonathanJoseph

Geez. Whether it's me or some unnamed NBA scouts, a lot of denial and shooting the messenger going on here. Needless to say, a nerve was touched. Honestly, I think even less of Wall than the unnamed scouts.

As for the shoot first criticism, I've never seen a PG who goes "1-on-5" more than Wall, ever, on any level of basketball. Next game, count the number of times that Wall is the only player to touch the ball on offense before a shot goes up. It's something that just doesn't happen with other PGs who understand that their 1st job is to run the offense, not to score.
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