EG post Abe era started Nov 24, 2009 - Eval EG from then

[hands11]

Time for people to take a clean look at EG. You can question all you want the moves made while Abe was the owner of the team, Lord knows I found myself there more than once. Some of us give a lot of weight to the concept that EG was operating under a less that idea situation and that the owner has a lot to do with the game plan so it is hard to see a clear picture. The GM influences the game plan along with the head coach ( that hopefully is selected by that GM - see EFJ ), but the owner makes the final call on the direction of the franchise/team, sets the strategy of the organization ( win, make money, etc ). The owner signs the checks and is the final word on who gets signed specially if they are long term and for lots of money and what you do with your draft picks. So I'm trying to look at EG with fresh eyes in a environment that isn't as muddy. To me, that is a lot easier post Nov 24th, 2009.

Since then, EG ran on his own for a little while with no clear long term owner after Abe passed. He was doing the Polin's bidding while probably also thinking about Ted since he was the likely future owner. That was a tough space to operate but it looks like he did well. Then Ted bought the team and they partnered up.

While Abe was here, I often couched a lot of what looked like EG decisions saying he was doing Abes bidding. Ted even recently spoke about this when talking about giving up the 5th pick in last years draft by saying, if he was owner, that would have never happened. Plus EG had to GM all those years with EFG as the head coach who was hand picked by Abe before EG was signed as GM leading to a totally dysfunctions front office - IMO

Now that we have an organized front office with Ted, EG, and an EG picked coach Flip and Sam-I-Am, things look awesome to me and EG seems to be making sound moves. Ted is doing the stuff you want an owner to do. He is interfacing with the fans, he is upgrading the phone booth and setting our exceptions. He has also told us how he plans to run this franchise much like Abe told us the plan, win again before he dies. Now that we have a great owner, EG can focus on being a great GM for the long run.

So just evaluate what EG has done since Nov 24, 2009 and grade him. I think it's time to see what we can see. A line in the sand fresh look.

I give him an A.

[hands11]

- He broke up the AJ, CB, GA unless combo that was aging and didnt focus on D.
- He traded Haywood and CB to Dallas - hatted to see Haywood go but Haywood and CB were both going to come due to sign long term contracts which would have set the direction of the team for a long time. In return we got Josh who did get injured but who just signed to a short reasonable contract 3-4M a year and Singleton who may still make the team. We didn't sign up Gooden who is a nice piece but we wanted cap space and room to play Dray. Ross is off the books and Sleezy if finally gone.

- We dumped AJ which cleared things up for Dray who produced wonderfully and finally got to start at PF. Now Cleveland is stuck with AJs contract. We bought out Z so he isn't here and we got a 1 round pick.

- We got ride of Mike James - thank God
- We had lots of cap room so we could pick up ( without giving up any assets ) Kirk and the 17th pick which got up Seraphin which is jumped other teams to get.

- We didn't dump Gil for nothing
- We held onto our young assets through all of this. Dray, McGee and Nick
- Dom while and interesting pieces is gone.
- We tanked and we got the #1 pick which got us Wall a legit starting PG for the long term to go along with a profession quality vet PG who was playing with Rose who was Wall like.

- We added interesting vets to short contracts who could have upside in AT, Yi and Armstrong
- Added a scrappy defensive rookie in Booker and a long short center.
- Flip is sticking around even though this isn't what he signed up for.

We are still under the cap. The team is loaded with talent and is a nice mix of vets and rookies and pretty much every player on the roster has upside except we pretty much know what we have in Kirk.

While it may have been messy to watch, EG, and now EG and Ted, pretty much rebuild this team before our very eyes since Nov 2009. He got them unstuck. There are still plenty of move ahead to be made but you can actually see the flexibility the team has to make them and almost all of our players have a good chance of being worth more come the trade deadline than they are worth now.

[Dat2U]

Ah, nothing like the good ole 'blame the dead man' theory.

I'm sure Abe, nodding off in his wheelchair, was conscious long enough to direct Ernie to acquire Randy Foye & Mike Miller for our '09 5th pick because Abe thought so highly of them and thought they'd be the final pieces to the puzzle.

And don't forget when Abe demanded Ernie give $16 million of his own money to DeShawn Stevenson or else!

And of course we all know Abe was sole force behind bringing Mike James to DC.

Of course we needed a thread for this, because its not like we didn't have an Ernie thread to begin with. Definitely an issue we needed to rehash once again. I hadn't mentioned EG's shortcomings in like 5 days, I was starting to slip.

Patiently waits for Lyrical Rico AKA The Tool to come in with two or three emoticons to show his approval.

[montestewart]

Ah, nothing like the good ole 'blame the dead man' theory.

I'm sure Abe, nodding off in his wheelchair, was conscious long enough to direct Ernie to acquire Randy Foye & Mike Miller for our '09 5th pick because Abe thought so highly of them and thought they'd be the final pieces to the puzzle.

And don't forget when Abe demanded Ernie give $16 million of his own money to DeShawn Stevenson or else!

And of course we all know Abe was sole force behind bringing Mike James to DC.

Of course we needed a thread for this, because its not like we didn't have an Ernie thread to begin with. Definitely an issue we needed to rehash once again. I hadn't mentioned EG's shortcomings in like 5 days, I was starting to slip.

Patiently waits for Lyrical Rico AKA The Tool to come in with two or three emoticons to show his approval.

To tie into another thread, I'm sure Pollin instructed staff to stop cleaning up mouse droppings in order to save money. Polling seems like an increasingly disconnected person, and unless I'm missing something, he never came across as an imperious, dictatorial type. Various organizational shortcomings might have stemmed as much from affection for him (not wanting to confront him with harsh realities) rather than from callousness, but it seems (and I've said this before) like the organization lacked a rudder. I prefer not to brand Pollin at this point.

Still, if EG's here for awhile, I've got no problem with at least considering this new period as different. I'm not forgetting the past, and if I see signs of continued that the new boss is just like the old boss...

I'd say about halfway between a B and a C, and results of some of these moves could raise that grade. I'll mark B to try and stay positive.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

hands, EG got Wall. That's the best thing that has happened and he didn't do anything but get lucky to get the #1 overall.

I gave EG a "B" for one reason. Big Picture. He seems to get it now.

I like that EG has acquired athletic, tough, primarily defensive-minder grinders. Seraphin looks like he will be a tough mother shut your mouth. Booker is a great athlete. N'Diaye wants to block every shot. Hinrich is a good defender and a scrappy player. Yi, while he's been a soft, IMO bad player so far, who makes too much money; is seven feet tall and very athletic. So, EG has gone and made this team taller, more competitive, and much more athletic. That alone deserves a B.

Objectively, however, you have to look at fiscal constraints and the chemistry of the team. EG traded up to select Booker in round one. Booker played like a lamb, not a lion, in summer league. Yi makes about 4M this year and he might not be better than the third best PF on the team when all is said and done. Kirk Hinrich is going to have to squeeze in enough minutes backing Gil and John Wall to come close to justifying his $9Mil a year. Ninety-six minutes between the three of them and that's not counting any minutes for Nick Young, the only legitimately-sized SG. Knowing Flip Saunders, wouldn't surprise me if he starts Kirk with Wall and brings Gil off the bench and never plays Young. He might do so and lose several games in a row without being flexible enough to change. So, IMO Ernie Grunfeld hasn't necessarily improved the chemistry in the backcourt. Finally, why give Hilton Armstrong a guaranteed deal this early. Does that leave Hamady N'Diaye any shot at all? So, for these reasons I cannot give him an A. Also, a B grade might be being generous but I'll have to wait and see.

What I am afraid will continue to be the case for EG, even under Ted Leonsis, is that EG will pay too much for mediocre talent.

[no D in Hibachi]

I'm sure Abe, nodding off in his wheelchair, was conscious long enough to direct Ernie to acquire Randy Foye & Mike Miller for our '09 5th pick because Abe thought so highly of them and thought they'd be the final pieces to the puzzle.

When you consider all the elements in bad trades over the last decade does this trade top them all? There's really three lopsided trades over the last decade that made you roll your eyes.

1) VC for Morning, Williams, Williams, and some other bag of bones. This is probably the worst over the past decade, but VC was such a d-bag that the Raptors lost all leverage and couldn't really do anything other than dump him for whatever they could get.

2) Pau for Critter, 2 firsts, Brown, and Marc Gasol. Grizzlies were dumping salary at all costs and in hind-sight got 3 firsts to go along with a top 10ish center. Not as big a doop as we initially thought.

3) Foye and MM for the 5th. Unlike the two previous trades where the motivation was something other than acquiring good players, or where the trading team lost all leverage, the Wizards actually thought they were making a trade which made them significantly better. Its sad that they fully excepted this trade to push them into elite status. It was an epic failure right from the beginning. There was really never a glimmer of hope for this trade paying dividends. Not only did they get talentless players who actually made the team worse, they gave up significant assets to acquire Foye and MM. Whether Abe had a gun to EG's head or not EG has to take the fall for this. If he was so deadset on trading the 5th pick in what is now a good draft he should have at least acquired talented players. He got taken for a ride by the GM many consider to be the worst in the league! This is a trade you cannot simply write off. EG's time in DC will always have two black spots. Arenas' second contract and the Foye/MM for the 5th pick trade.

It's disappointing to know that over the past two decades the Wizards have been on the losing end of the two worst trades of the decade. Richmond and Thorpe for Webb in the 90's and MM/Foye for the 5th pick in the 00's.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

monte, I read your post after I posted mine.

I agree all the way on midway between a B and a C. I believe EG will trend closer to the C with subsequent moves.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

no D, I think EG should have been fired for that MM/Foye for #5 deal. That was crappy from day one.

To not know that Curry was better than Foye alone was bad scouting and just not understanding Foye's known weaknesses. To ignore that both Foye and Miller were UFAs was inexcusable. To risk going further over the cap for two mediocre players coming off a terrible season on another awful, losing team just showed a lack of insight on EGs part.

That deal was worse than anything I could have conceived EG would do at the time.

[Dat2U]

Bottom line, I think Ernie won't be given the rope to hang himself like he had with Abe.

If anything, I think Leonsis will enforce his will more than Abe did. Leonsis has an specific strategy that's in place. Ernie's job is to execute that strategy. And Ernie won't be allowed to deviate from that strategy (i.e. giving a guy like Al Harrington $40 million).

It's not Ernie whose being smart about not spending millions on long term deals, its Leonsis dictating that Ernie cannot go any other route but to patiently build through the draft and acquire young talent.

Time will tell how Ernie will do under Leonsis' edict, but honestly I'm not incredibly impressed thus far. Everything rides on Seraphin, and Booker to a lesser extent. If Serpahin is the next Nene, then Ernie acquitted himself pretty well regardless of what else happens. If Seraphin isn't what many are making him out to be, I'm sure I'm not going to be the only one wondering why in hell Ernie still has a job.

[Dat2U]

no D, I think EG should have been fired for that MM/Foye for #5 deal. That was crappy from day one.

To not know that Curry was better than Foye alone was bad scouting and just not understanding Foye's known weaknesses. To ignore that both Foye and Miller were UFAs was inexcusable. To risk going further over the cap for two mediocre players coming off a terrible season on another awful, losing team just showed a lack of insight on EGs part.

That deal was worse than anything I could have conceived EG would do at the time.

Ernie fell vicitim to 'group think'. In his initial comments after the trade was made Ernie stated, that "everyone said this was a weak draft". Note that Ernie said "everyone" as opposed to what he actually thought. I found that very disturbing.

Passing on Curry was bad enough, but passing on Amare for the 5th + Butler to choose Foye & Miller instead was insane. I understand your under pressure from the owner to win immediately, but could anyone equate two role players off the bench to winning immediately???

[Benjammin]

Blaming Pollin is so incredibly convenient, portraying him as a George Steinbrenner/Jerry Jones type, even if it's not based in reality. I too highly doubt that Abe Pollin gave specific orders to Ernie to obtain Randy Foye and Mike Miller by name because of Mr. Pollin's extensive scouting of both of them. He might have said if you don't think you can get a good player at 5, would you look at obtaining a quality veteran. Ernie is accountable for his record, both before and after Pollin's death. I can only hope that he will make good moves or if he makes bad ones that he will be replaced by someone more competent.

[no D in Hibachi]

no D, I think EG should have been fired for that MM/Foye for #5 deal. That was crappy from day one.

To not know that Curry was better than Foye alone was bad scouting and just not understanding Foye's known weaknesses. To ignore that both Foye and Miller were UFAs was inexcusable. To risk going further over the cap for two mediocre players coming off a terrible season on another awful, losing team just showed a lack of insight on EGs part.

That deal was worse than anything I could have conceived EG would do at the time.

I agree, from a strictly talent evaluation stand-point the MM/Foye for the 5th pick trade may be among the worst trades ever. By 'talent evaluation' I am obviously scoping out fire-sale trades (Pau), angry pouty star trades (Wilt, VC,Barkely soon to be Paul), or drug related/crazy owner trades (CWebb).

[Illuminaire]

I'm not a huge fan of how we've already chewed up most of our cap space, but I like that most of it is in movable chunks. Kirk is movable even this year at the deadline. Howard could be swapped to a contender for a late first rounder, if he plays well the first few months. I'm excited to see Seraphin play, though Booker still underwhelms me.

I'm going to give EG a C+ for now. If he successfully rolls Howard and/or Kirk over for young assets or draft picks, that will bump to a B+. If Seraphin turns out to be the tough rebounder we so badly need, I will personally send Ernie a thank-you card with a gold star sticker on it.

[hands11]

Ah, nothing like the good ole 'blame the dead man' theory.

I'm sure Abe, nodding off in his wheelchair, was conscious long enough to direct Ernie to acquire Randy Foye & Mike Miller for our '09 5th pick because Abe thought so highly of them and thought they'd be the final pieces to the puzzle.

And don't forget when Abe demanded Ernie give $16 million of his own money to DeShawn Stevenson or else!

And of course we all know Abe was sole force behind bringing Mike James to DC.

Of course we needed a thread for this, because its not like we didn't have an Ernie thread to begin with. Definitely an issue we needed to rehash once again. I hadn't mentioned EG's shortcomings in like 5 days, I was starting to slip.

Patiently waits for Lyrical Rico AKA The Tool to come in with two or three emoticons to show his approval.

Just rate the moves since Nov 24th. There was no thread like that. Stop with the straw man and the hate. Be objective.

[montestewart]

no D, I think EG should have been fired for that MM/Foye for #5 deal. That was crappy from day one.

To not know that Curry was better than Foye alone was bad scouting and just not understanding Foye's known weaknesses. To ignore that both Foye and Miller were UFAs was inexcusable. To risk going further over the cap for two mediocre players coming off a terrible season on another awful, losing team just showed a lack of insight on EGs part.

That deal was worse than anything I could have conceived EG would do at the time.

Wasn't in love with that move, but was among those that, at the time, could see how it might be a good move if other things fell into place, and it wasn't the last move (meaning, get tougher bigs and some defense). I was more upset with passing on Blair, a low risk addition of interior toughness.

Hands is trying to define a new, post-Pollin era. I'm not into blaming Pollin, but I can see the utility in looking at post-November 24, 2009 as a discrete era that can be judged separately. For that reason, I'm steering clear of the 2009 draft.

[hands11]

hands, EG got Wall. That's the best thing that has happened and he didn't do anything but get lucky to get the #1 overall.

I gave EG a "B" for one reason. Big Picture. He seems to get it now.

I like that EG has acquired athletic, tough, primarily defensive-minder grinders. Seraphin looks like he will be a tough mother shut your mouth. Booker is a great athlete. N'Diaye wants to block every shot. Hinrich is a good defender and a scrappy player. Yi, while he's been a soft, IMO bad player so far, who makes too much money; is seven feet tall and very athletic. So, EG has gone and made this team taller, more competitive, and much more athletic. That alone deserves a B.

Objectively, however, you have to look at fiscal constraints and the chemistry of the team. EG traded up to select Booker in round one. Booker played like a lamb, not a lion, in summer league. Yi makes about 4M this year and he might not be better than the third best PF on the team when all is said and done. Kirk Hinrich is going to have to squeeze in enough minutes backing Gil and John Wall to come close to justifying his $9Mil a year. Ninety-six minutes between the three of them and that's not counting any minutes for Nick Young, the only legitimately-sized SG. Knowing Flip Saunders, wouldn't surprise me if he starts Kirk with Wall and brings Gil off the bench and never plays Young. He might do so and lose several games in a row without being flexible enough to change. So, IMO Ernie Grunfeld hasn't necessarily improved the chemistry in the backcourt. Finally, why give Hilton Armstrong a guaranteed deal this early. Does that leave Hamady N'Diaye any shot at all? So, for these reasons I cannot give him an A. Also, a B grade might be being generous but I'll have to wait and see.

What I am afraid will continue to be the case for EG, even under Ted Leonsis, is that EG will pay too much for mediocre talent.

While I think those are fair evaluation from a dollar per performance stand point, I think you are taking some stuff out of the context that makes the Kirk deal an A.

Sure, Kirk cost to much as a straight back up PG/SF but we got him for nothing and the 17th pick which may have brought us a starting center for many years. And we had a cap space to pay Kirk that much for only two years if we even keep him that long. And Kirk is a solid influence, something this team needs. And it add the x factor flexibility regarding Gil and Nick. And it gives you a solid reliable second PG while your number 1 pick works his way through things. And having the solid second PG means you don't have to play Gil there while your turning him into a pure SG and you have a solid vet PG to help develop structure for all those bench players you want to get the most out off. And this really put the screws to Nick to grow up and get it going.

For all those reasons, Kirk is well worth the money we are paying him, specially since it was only a two year deal so if we want, EG can likely trade him in a package for something more come the trade deadline. Melo anyone ? I give EG an clear A if not an A+ on this deal for sure.

And it was only because we cleared the deck that we could do it. This would end up better than the CB for Kwame deal.

[hands11]

I'm sure Abe, nodding off in his wheelchair, was conscious long enough to direct Ernie to acquire Randy Foye & Mike Miller for our '09 5th pick because Abe thought so highly of them and thought they'd be the final pieces to the puzzle.

When you consider all the elements in bad trades over the last decade does this trade top them all? There's really three lopsided trades over the last decade that made you roll your eyes.

1) VC for Morning, Williams, Williams, and some other bag of bones. This is probably the worst over the past decade, but VC was such a d-bag that the Raptors lost all leverage and couldn't really do anything other than dump him for whatever they could get.

2) Pau for Critter, 2 firsts, Brown, and Marc Gasol. Grizzlies were dumping salary at all costs and in hind-sight got 3 firsts to go along with a top 10ish center. Not as big a doop as we initially thought.

3) Foye and MM for the 5th. Unlike the two previous trades where the motivation was something other than acquiring good players, or where the trading team lost all leverage, the Wizards actually thought they were making a trade which made them significantly better. Its sad that they fully excepted this trade to push them into elite status. It was an epic failure right from the beginning. There was really never a glimmer of hope for this trade paying dividends. Not only did they get talentless players who actually made the team worse, they gave up significant assets to acquire Foye and MM. Whether Abe had a gun to EG's head or not EG has to take the fall for this. If he was so deadset on trading the 5th pick in what is now a good draft he should have at least acquired talented players. He got taken for a ride by the GM many consider to be the worst in the league! This is a trade you cannot simply write off. EG's time in DC will always have two black spots. Arenas' second contract and the Foye/MM for the 5th pick trade.

It's disappointing to know that over the past two decades the Wizards have been on the losing end of the two worst trades of the decade. Richmond and Thorpe for Webb in the 90's and MM/Foye for the 5th pick in the 00's.

But that happened before Nov 24th 2009 so that can go in one of the other EG no d threads or Days till EG is fired threads.

It's pretty simple. Just moves made since Nov 24th 2009 and rate him.

[Dat2U]

Ah, nothing like the good ole 'blame the dead man' theory.

I'm sure Abe, nodding off in his wheelchair, was conscious long enough to direct Ernie to acquire Randy Foye & Mike Miller for our '09 5th pick because Abe thought so highly of them and thought they'd be the final pieces to the puzzle.

And don't forget when Abe demanded Ernie give $16 million of his own money to DeShawn Stevenson or else!

And of course we all know Abe was sole force behind bringing Mike James to DC.

Of course we needed a thread for this, because its not like we didn't have an Ernie thread to begin with. Definitely an issue we needed to rehash once again. I hadn't mentioned EG's shortcomings in like 5 days, I was starting to slip.

Patiently waits for Lyrical Rico AKA The Tool to come in with two or three emoticons to show his approval.

Just rate the moves since Nov 24th. There was no thread like that. Stop with the straw man and the hate. Be objective.

Be objective??? Dude, you gotta frickin poll which only goes from a grade of A to C!!!! Let's be real here. And you tell me I can only evaluate the man for the last 8 months when he's had the position for over 7 years!

I already said he can't fully be judged on this offseason until we get a look a Seraphin. Dont talk to me about objectivity.

Everyone wants to cut Ernie some slack because of Abe. Well hell maybe we should look back at history and see that Wes Unseld wasn't that bad either.

[hands11]

Bottom line, I think Ernie won't be given the rope to hang himself like he had with Abe.

If anything, I think Leonsis will enforce his will more than Abe did. Leonsis has an specific strategy that's in place. Ernie's job is to execute that strategy. And Ernie won't be allowed to deviate from that strategy (i.e. giving a guy like Al Harrington $40 million).

It's not Ernie whose being smart about not spending millions on long term deals, its Leonsis dictating that Ernie cannot go any other route but to patiently build through the draft and acquire young talent.

Time will tell how Ernie will do under Leonsis' edict, but honestly I'm not incredibly impressed thus far. Everything rides on Seraphin, and Booker to a lesser extent. If Serpahin is the next Nene, then Ernie acquitted himself pretty well regardless of what else happens. If Seraphin isn't what many are making him out to be, I'm sure I'm not going to be the only one wondering why in hell Ernie still has a job.

Right. That is what a good owner does. So if Ted told EG to go trade the pick an try to win now before he dies, would you blame EG or Ted ? MM was a solid dude. Wish he would have shot more but I'll miss MM. Foye was a tweaner and Gil insurance but he got hurt. Then the whole thing feel apart with the Gil things and CB not being able to return to a true CB role. Then Abe died and EG was on his own and blow it up.

So since Nov 24th, EGs moves look pretty good even when he didn't have a clear owner. Now with Ted, I don't see a move that was made that you can say doesn't have good upside to it. Even Howard for two years seems like a decent gamble. Specially since all we had there was AT and maybe Yi, Young and maybe Booker. That was a solid move.

[Dat2U]

While I think those are fair evaluation from a dollar per performance stand point, I think you are taking some stuff out of the context that makes the Kirk deal an A.

Sure, Kirk cost to much as a straight back up PG/SF but we got him for nothing and the 17th pick which may have brought us a starting center for many years. And we had a cap space to pay Kirk that much for only two years if we even keep him that long. And Kirk is a solid influence, something this team needs. And it add the x factor flexibility regarding Gil and Nick. And it gives you a solid reliable second PG while your number 1 pick works his way through things. And having the solid second PG means you don't have to play Gil there while your turning him into a pure SG and you have a solid vet PG to help develop structure for all those bench players you want to get the most out off. And this really put the screws to Nick to grow up and get it going.

For all those reasons, Kirk is well worth the money we are paying him, specially since it was only a two year deal so if we want, EG can likely trade him in a package for something more come the trade deadline. Melo anyone ? I give EG an clear A if not an A+ on this deal for sure.

And it was only because we cleared the deck that we could do it. This would end up better than the CB for Kwame deal.

Objectivity involves not making assumptions. You sure are making alot of assumptions here.