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Wizards medical staff issues

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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#106 » by pancakes3 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:08 pm

i think the gen board has it right. i can definitely see oden making his new home in phoenix.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#107 » by Ruzious » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:37 pm

keynote wrote:
pineappleheadindc wrote:Odd thought.

Somebody ought to look at the Portland medical staff and their processes and procedures.

Are they REALLY that snake-bitten?

I can't even begin to count the number of big injuries they've suffered over the years.

And is Greg Oden just brittle, the world's most unlucky guy, or the victim of bad sports medicine? Jeez, I feel bad for him.


From an Adande article on ESPN.com:

And it's possible [Oden] needs to be surrounded by a different medical and training staff. Oden's knee troubles are the latest in a Portland line that includes Zach Randolph, Darius Miles, Joel Przybilla and Brandon Roy, the franchise player who limped through the playoffs and currently is on the shelf for at least a week. I've had NBA people from inside and outside the organization cast wary eyes on the Trail Blazers' medical ways.

At a news conference Wednesday, the Blazers went out of their way to praise the medical staff, with team president Larry Miller saying, "We have without a doubt one of the most respected medical and training staffs in all of sports," and general manager Rich Cho's opening statement consisting of "These guys are top notch. These guys are very knowledgeable, thorough, extremely hard-working, and I support them 100 percent."

That was all unprompted, before athletic trainer Jay Jensen was asked, pointedly, whether the training and medical staff ever wonders whether it needs to re-evaluate its methods.

"Absolutely," he said.

He said team orthopedic surgeon Dr. Don Roberts is constantly seeking outside opinions while within the organization they ask themselves, "Is there anything we could be doing that we're not doing? Is there anything that we're missing?"


Man. All of this sounds familiar - right down to the defensive (delusional?) tone coming from the front office.

I don't know about the others, but Przy had knee issues long before he came to Portland. He couldn't stay healthy in college or with the Bucks. If he's being used as some kind of evidence to point out the incomepetence of Portland's medical folk, then I'd suggest a helluvalot more digging is needed before making some kind of accusation - however vague. As was said about the Wiz group, asking the question is fine. But coming to any kind of conclusion with so little information is lame.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#108 » by keynote » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:23 pm

^ I agree that it's tough for *us* as fans to draw definitive conclusions - especially about injury prevention. But NBA people "inside and outside the organization" presumably have more info than we do. The insinuation here is that, while these folks aren't citing solid proof, they think the situation smells bad.

So, then, we can at least ask this question: have there been any similar references to the Wizards' medical staff coming from the media? I mean, sure, folks on RealGM and other fan boards have been complaining for years, but has it gotten to the point where NBA types cast wary eyes at the Wizards' medical staff as well? I would say that quotes from Etan, Rip, and others qualify. But, your mileage may vary.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#109 » by Ruzious » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:28 pm

keynote wrote:^ I agree that it's tough for *us* as fans to draw definitive conclusions - especially about injury prevention. But NBA people "inside and outside the organization" presumably have more info than we do. The insinuation here is that, while these folks aren't citing solid proof, they think the situation smells bad.

C'mon keynote, I don't have to tell you that you need more than some vague reference to "NBA people". Again, it's fine to ask the question. Obviously, you need more evidence to make any kind of accusation. Am I being unreasonable saying that?

As for the Wiz situation, see Nivek's posts. I can steal his material, but I can't say it any better than he did.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#110 » by keynote » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:43 pm

^ Again, we have quotes from Etan, Rip, and others. Specific enough?

Again, earlier in this thread, I made a clear distinction between injury prevention (which we really don't have enough to do more than speculate about) and injury diagnosis/treatment (where we *do* have quotes from ex-Wizards, and reports of misdiagnoses from beat writers). That's not the same as Adande's broad assessment of "NBA people."
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#111 » by Dat2U » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:16 am

I don't think there's anything in terms of evidence that one will be able to produce for Ruzious to give credence to the idea that a medical staff could be potentially culpable for shortening players' careers. All were going to have is circumstantial evidence and maybe a random quote here or there. This isn't a situation were your going to see documentation or a team throwing its on medical staff under the bus. Of course a franchise would never ever ever say anything bad about its own medical care. That just doesn't make very good sense from a legal standpoint.

So Ruzious will always be able to point to the fact that outside of vague references and hearsay that there's no smoking gun or demonstrative evidence to insinuate substandard medical care of professional athletes.

But looking at the Portland situation. I'd point to the Brandon Roy situation as an example that something is awry with the decision making there.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/s ... ley25.html

We even touched on this last spring during the playoffs. Brandon Roy was cleared to play by team doctors just 8 days after knee surgery (to repair his torn meniscus btw, oh what a co-inky-dink!). That game & moment in time was historic, heroic and memorable. It was also incredibly stupid and shortsighted. Just months later, we see Roy, struggling to move with no lift and his long term prospects in serious jeopardy.

I'd love to hear a counter-argument to this. I guess one could say that Brandon wanted to play and begged to do so, much like Gilbert Arenas pleaded a few years ago to get back on the court as soon as possible. So it must be the players fault right? Just the luck of the draw if they somehow aggravate an injury that they haven't had a chance to fully recover from? That's a bunch of BS in my opinion.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#112 » by closg00 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:35 pm

Just read Mike Lee's update about McGee, truly, truly frightening stuff. Very worried.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#113 » by Illuminaire » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:52 pm

Ugh. Not again. Please Lord, not again.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#114 » by keynote » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:02 pm

That's horrible news.

I can't shake this feeling that the Wizards in a three-way tie w/ POR and LAC for most injury-prone franchise ever. And, by injury-prone, I don't mean one star dealing with repeated injuries to the same body part (e.g., HOU w/ Yao, ORL w/ G-Hill, LAL w/ Bynum); I'm talking about multiple players getting injured and staying out for long periods of time. Now, I'm sure that every fan feels that their team gets hit with the injury bug more often than they should, but I feel like the Wizards have been amongst the most injured teams over the past 20 years.

Is there an easy way to track this? Tallying the total number of games lost won't do it, since we'd want to distinguish between multiple players getting injured vs. just one gimpy, unfortunate guy. Perhaps we'd count the total # of players who missed more than 20 games in a given season for a team for the last 20 years? I mean, at some point, I'd like to think that the right statistical approach should be able to distinguish between mere bad luck and an identifiable pattern of injury.

Now, if/once that pattern is identified, we still wouldn't know whether the onus would be on the scouting team for failing to accurately identify/handicap injured players, on the training staff for failing to accurately preventative measures in keeping with statistically identified industry standards, or on the medical staff for failing to effectively diagnose and treat injuries once they happen.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#115 » by Illuminaire » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:05 pm

I just hope the Wizards take him to a specialist ASAP, do MRIs, whatever. Pay the money, get the best care from the most brilliant doctor available, and get our human pogo stick back on the court for a long healthy career.

Please.


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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#116 » by Ruzious » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:06 pm

Dat2U wrote:I don't think there's anything in terms of evidence that one will be able to produce for Ruzious to give credence to the idea that a medical staff could be potentially culpable for shortening players' careers.

Since this thread has re-opened, for the record - that's not what I said.

This is what I said - on this page:
As was said about the Wiz group, asking the question is fine. But coming to any kind of conclusion with so little information is lame.

We were talking about the current medical staff of the Wiz - and as far as I can tell - none of us even know how long any of the current staff have been here.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#117 » by JonathanJoseph » Thu Dec 9, 2010 4:04 am

Wow. Wall missing more time with the foot.

Another player comes back before he's healthy. By itself it means nothing, but we know this is a long pattern.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#118 » by lupin » Thu Dec 9, 2010 4:06 am

is the medical staff on any of Ted's published lists?
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#119 » by keynote » Thu Dec 9, 2010 2:17 pm

Nope, lupin. As Induveca posted earlier in this thread, Ted recently sent him an email giving the medical staff a full vote of confidence. backing the current medical staff.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#120 » by Induveca » Thu Dec 9, 2010 5:44 pm

Found this old article, quite relevant to us....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba ... otes_x.htm

The doctor Grant Hill slammed in public in this article, going so far to say he "wasted his time" with him (3 years!), is the same doctor now taking care of Wall and Arenas and their foot/ankle problems in Baltimore. He has since praised the Phoenix staff as we all know.......

Between the hacks at WOSM (www.wosm.com) and Myerson in Baltimore (not Hopkins), it doesn't surprise me Arenas has no lift and Wall is continuing to miss games with something that should have a better diagnosis.

Mailed the article to Leonsis.......as Wall will likely be seeing Myerson upon his arrival in the DC metro area. Somewhat worrisome. Personally if I'm Leonsis, I put in a call to Hill and find out what doc actually "fixed" him and put Wall on the first flight out.

As I've researched more and more no team has a dedicated medical staff, but they do have trainers. The medical staff are typically a standard local Sports Medicine Firm who take care of the general population as well. The sports teams are just typically their highest profile client. Wall could likely visit the top physician in Phoenix as well if the Wiz so chose......
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#121 » by fishercob » Thu Dec 9, 2010 8:42 pm

Indu, thanks for your continued research and vigilance on this issue. Keep putting good info in front of Ted. Cheers.
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#122 » by keynote » Thu Dec 9, 2010 10:08 pm

That's scary, scary news right there. How has the guy who butchered Grant Hill's ankle not been blacklisted by the rest of the professional sports community?
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#123 » by Induveca » Thu Dec 9, 2010 11:02 pm

fishercob wrote:Indu, thanks for your continued research and vigilance on this issue. Keep putting good info in front of Ted. Cheers.


Doing my best. I am encouraged by that article, and knowing he'll read my email. Hopefully it makes them at least consider sending Wall elsewhere. I re-read that article, and noticed Hill had James Nunley at Duke medical center do his ankle replacement surgery.

Ironically after a car accident in the Dominican Republic in the 90s as a teenager, my ankle/leg were crushed/broken very badly. After some initial subpar treatment in Santo Domingo and 10 days of massive swelling, my parents took me up to Duke to have a second opinion. After surgery/rebreaking my leg......and 8 screws and two plates in my right ankle.........3 months later I was as good as new and playing basketball again.

The doctor? And this is pretty crazy, James Nunley! My father actually chose him because he had recently performed surgery on George Bush Sr. and had read about it in Time or Newsweek. The guy literally allowed me to not only walk again but play sports again at a high level. My leg was really really bad....pretty ironic. My hoops obsession has come full circle. :)
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#124 » by Dat2U » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:24 am

Great stuff Indu. Also very troubling. I'm stunned that Myerson is being used by us considering that piece of news. Grant Hill isn't the type of guy just to throw people under the bus like that. For him to say that really means something.

More stuff from Hill's situation:

Hill says he deferred to the Magic's choice of surgeon so that "the lines of communication [between doctor and team] would be better than the first time." The team picked Mark Myerson, the president of the American Orthopedic Foot and Ankle Society, to perform Hill's second and third operations, in Baltimore. "After the third one, Dr. Myerson told me that nothing else could be done," Hill says. "So I went back to Duke."


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... z17ge1wp9H

Hill arrived in Phoenix three years ago, for the cut rate of $1.9 million per season, and the day he signed his contract he went through a 2½-hour physical assessment with the Suns' renowned medical staff. On the drive back to his hotel he nearly broke down at the wheel, overwhelmed by the care he finally felt he was getting. Last summer Hill had a chance to sign with the Knicks for more money and the Celtics for what seemed like a better chance at a championship, but he re-upped with the Suns in part for their trainers.

Hill has hired a macrobiotic chef, sees an acupuncturist and has bought into the Suns' innovative corrective-exercise program, in which every player is assessed daily and given exercises to address physical imbalances.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... z17geQ8GNn
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Re: Wizards medical staff issues 

Post#125 » by Dat2U » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:40 am

Some more good reading. This time Jarvis Hayes.

A few games later, Hayes went up for a dunk against the Kings and when he came down, his knee had split completely open. Season over, career threatened. For a year, he hoped things would get better, as he noted, without surgery. Although he won’t blame the Wizards’ medical staff, others have. "He took the high road for what seems to be a poor diagnosis by the Wizards medical staff after the initial fracture," wrote the Washington Post’s Michael Lee last year.


Read more: http://www.netsdaily.com/2008/10/5/1346 ... to-ironman
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