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I Still Hate The System

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Post#1 I Still Hate The System
Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:00 pm by dlts20

I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. I cant watch it anymore. He has to go. Do you guys remember me making that long thread before the season about Flip's system? Mostly about the pick & roll. How Flip seemingly runs it different then every team in the league. You have to pay attention. Again, I think its the reason why Gil sucked last year, Foye sucked, and even Livingston sucked before we changed to that 2 guard Offense late in the year and its the same with Wall. He will never be great with Flip unless he turns into a great mid range jump shooter but even then he wont be what he could be.

Sure he will get a million assist but most of them are halfway fake. Its like when Gil started racking up assist last year. Most of them were just basic passes. In a ton of games Wall might have 8ast in the 1st half and if you read our opponents message board, they are always shocked because it doesnt seem like he's doing much or has hardly any assist. Its because of Flips crap. Sure Wall will play great sometimes just because he's special but he wont be even a quarter what he could be with the right coach.

Again for me, it all goes back to our picks. When EJ was here, our #1 play was like most teams #1 play. Gil would run a pick with Wood or AJ. He would get so close & tight to Wood that sometimes he would grab Wood's jersey and use it as a sling shot. Then he was one on one with the Center which is usually a layup or a foul. Once teams try to overextend to help, then you can drive & kick. Its the samething even guys like Wade do that makes him unstoppable and why they won the Finals. Not Us.

Instead our big sets the screen like 2 feet in front of Wall and most of the time they leave before he even gets all the way there and they definitely leave before he gets past them. I get Flip's system. He probably comes from an old old skool where the PG was supposed to just facilitate. He was the worst scorer on the team so his job is just supposed to get it to everyone else but thats not the case with us. Gil was our best scorer, Foye is a good scorer in the right situation, and Wall would be unstoppable if we ran the pick & roll like that. He would probably get to the line 10x a game.

Ive overlooked it since I made my last thread due to the fact that I thought Wall was more of a passer so its not a bad thing for us to always give it back to Dray or NY or whoever but its crap. People who arent seeing anything special from Wall, this is why. He has no J but in Flip's system, its the only shot a PG can really get. Like I said about Gil & Foye. The only shot they took 90% of the time was the quick pull up J off the pick but even that isnt high percentage because the defender is running right at you when you are shooting it. It seems hurried all the time.

Recently I started watching our pick & rolls again after not doing it much all year and its the same. The only reason why Wall is even doing anything is because he's probably the fastest guy in the league. Without that then he would have no chance to get to the rim. You cant get to the rim consistently as a PG in Flip's system. Its so easy for the D to stop you unless you force it but then the whole D can see it coming so its a very hard layup to make. Im watching the Boston game tonight and I see it again. I watched a play where he ran a pick & roll with Dray and defending them were KG & Rondo. Dray was 2ft away from him, making it easy for KG to step in front of Dray to shield Wall's view and then Rondo can go under the screen because he knows Wall doesnt want to shoot the J. Then 1 split second later Rondo is back in front of Wall.

Even if he had took the J it wouldve been kinda long with Rondo close and getting closer. Then another play it was McGee setting the screen, again 2ft in front of Wall and he took off before Wall even got to him. Trust me, that is by design. Since he took off, Nate Robinson was still right on Wall as McGee never really even picked him. Then since nothing opened up, Wall went back the other way over another pick with Yi and again its such a big gap that Nate is still on him and Wall ends up taking a bad J. Its crap. Not only that but because of the picks and the design or the play, Wall hardly ever attacks off of it, even though he has crazy speed. Just like Gil or Foye didnt Most of the time they dont even look to score. They just go sideways looking to pass to guys off the curl or give it back to the guy that set the pick.
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Post#2 Re: I Still Hate Da System
Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:00 pm by dlts20

PART 2




Thats why most of those assist are just basic. The PG is only just throwing it back to the guy off the pick with a regular pass or feeding a guy like NY off a curl. Think about it, when was the last time youve seen Wall one on one with a big man? Do you remember us killing teams with Gil after Wood or AJ set the pick and then Gil was one on one with the Center or PF? It was unstoppable. Thats why we always gave the Cavs hell with them having slow Z. Thats why I thought we would beat them last year when they had both Z & Shaq. The 2 slowest guys in the league. Ofcourse we never ran it and we had to score on there top notch D with just a regular basic set thats all congested. Wall is mad fast & explosive. If we did that with him, he would score or get fouled every single time. He misses alot of layups but most of them are how I said. He has to force it and its a tough contested layup that looks easier then what it is because he just blows by guys.

Look at Wade always getting our bigs in foul trouble. Look at all the little guards going by McGee and scoring or causing us to rotate for something bad to happen. We never do that when it should be our #1 play. I would run it all game until someone stopped it. We would give Boston & the Heat hell with that with Shaq & Z. They would never ever stop Wall and he's a good passer on top of it. You wonder why he gets alot of turnovers now and why his passes get tipped alot. Its because its so easy to stop and you can see everything coming with our stop pick & roll system. Dont get me wrong, I dont hate it for everything. If Flip has a system then great but you can mix in that regular pick play sometimes and against teams with bad defenses or slow bigs then you should do it a ton.

It makes me sick that we dont take advantage of Shaq but he kills us on the other end. It makes me sick that we dont run any real pick plays on a small bad defender like Nash when they have no interior defenders. There is no way in hell the Suns would stop Wall in one of those systems. No way. Just rewatch our games and see what Im talking about. Sometimes Wall looks bad but he really doesnt have much of a chance on alot of plays. He always has the defender right in front of him no matter what he does even though he's so explosive. Its that system! Get Flip out. Im sick of seeing it. Its not that bad for guys like Cassell & Billups because thats there game anyways. They dont want to go to the rim. They cant blow by bigs or get teams in foul trouble. All they want to do is that pull up J off the screen or pass it back to guys anyways.

To me you are taking away our biggest threat. Give Wall to a ton of other coaches and he gets to the line 10x a night and probably is a 20 & 10 guy without even having a jumper. Go talk to the Pistons fans & Wolves fans. They say his system is just designed for jumpers. Thats all we do. Dont tell me that NY cant ever get to the hoop. He doesnt have much of a chance in this sytem. Dray can get in the post more but he is right in that he's mostly outside setting screens. Thats why KG is even more of a jump shooter then a low post guy and even his post moves are mostly fades. I hate it. The only shot Wall will get in the halfcourt forever will be a pull up jumper. Is that what you want? Again, even then its not high percentage.

There is no doubt that his J will probably get better but still it sucks. Lets say he does make some of them. He still wont be getting to the line and we still will be a jump shooting team. I remember us even playing against great defensive/offensive bigs like Howard or Duncan and we could still beat them or play with them because of that play and Gil could get them in foul trouble where they would have to sit. That will never happen anymore. We wont ever come close to making a Howard or any other good big sit because we dont do that 1 thing that every team does and the saddest part is we probably have a top 3 guy along with Rose & Wade who would kill with it. Sometimes people, even Wiz fans say Wall is good but he needs other guys around him to make him look good. He cant do it on his own like a Rose or other guys can but thats B.S. Its the system. Its dependant on the other guys playing well but if he was in a normal system that he could carry a team or dominate a game on a consistent basis. It would make us look like a totally different team
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Post#3 Re: I Still Hate The System
Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:21 pm by Ed Wood

Flip had previously coached the following point guards:

Chauncy Billups (twice actually, I totally forgot Chauncy was briefly in Minnesota).
Sam Cassell
Troy Hudson
Terrell Brandon
Stephan Marbury
Like one season of Terry Porter and Spudd Webb

Other than that one year of midget and whatever Porter was, Brandon is maybe the closest Flip has come to having a pure point guard and Brandon was regularly averaging 15+ points a game for those teams. Hell Flip got a fourteen point average out of Troy Hudson. Flip's system doesn't demand a true point guard and it isn't stopping Wall from doing anything. If anything the two halves Wall played tonight show that Wall is perfectly capable of being a dynamic player and it's his lack of consistency and aggression that are limiting his impact.

And the screens in Flip's offense are bad because our big men are terrible at screens. JaVale always leaves before setting the screen because JaVale always leaves before setting the screen. I suspect Flip isn't ordering him to be terrible at it, that's all natural.
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Post#4 Re: I Still Hate The System
Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:41 pm by montestewart

Ed Wood wrote: JaVale always leaves before setting the screen because JaVale always leaves before setting the screen. I suspect Flip isn't ordering him to be terrible at it, that's all natural.

You're on a roll.
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Post#5 Re: I Still Hate The System
Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:56 pm by Zonkerbl

I don't know, EFJ's system called for deliberate slip screens where you didn't really try to screen as much as pop through to see if the defense is going to switch or not and react according to the matchups the develop. The system didn't rely on actually setting good screens, and tbh it worked pretty well.

Dunno if this is what Flip is after though.
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Post#6 Re: I Still Hate The System
Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:28 am by closg00

"John picks up his foul, and we're down [13], and here's a guy coming in who doesn't really know much of our offense and made a couple plays for himself, looked like he belonged out there," Saunders said. "He was comfortable, defended pretty well, and got it to a manageable situation where we got it to around 10."


Shakur was more successful in fewer minutes because he wasn't running Flips offense... or it was an improvised running of some basic Flip plays.
Guys on a message board could do a better job managing the Wizards than Ernie Grunfeld.
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Post#7 Re: I Still Hate The System
Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:59 am by daSwami

Am I the only one who finds these "I'm smarter than the coach is" threads annoying?

It seems that the main criticism here is that Flip isn't using his players to the team's best advantage. I don't see how the average fan is qualified to know better than Flip how to best utilize his personnel.
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Post#8 Re: I Still Hate Da System
Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:09 pm by hands11

dlts20 wrote:PART 2




Thats why most of those assist are just basic. The PG is only just throwing it back to the guy off the pick with a regular pass or feeding a guy like NY off a curl. Think about it, when was the last time youve seen Wall one on one with a big man? Do you remember us killing teams with Gil after Wood or AJ set the pick and then Gil was one on one with the Center or PF? It was unstoppable. Thats why we always gave the Cavs hell with them having slow Z. Thats why I thought we would beat them last year when they had both Z & Shaq. The 2 slowest guys in the league. Ofcourse we never ran it and we had to score on there top notch D with just a regular basic set thats all congested. Wall is mad fast & explosive. If we did that with him, he would score or get fouled every single time. He misses alot of layups but most of them are how I said. He has to force it and its a tough contested layup that looks easier then what it is because he just blows by guys.

Look at Wade always getting our bigs in foul trouble. Look at all the little guards going by McGee and scoring or causing us to rotate for something bad to happen. We never do that when it should be our #1 play. I would run it all game until someone stopped it. We would give Boston & the Heat hell with that with Shaq & Z. They would never ever stop Wall and he's a good passer on top of it. You wonder why he gets alot of turnovers now and why his passes get tipped alot. Its because its so easy to stop and you can see everything coming with our stop pick & roll system. Dont get me wrong, I dont hate it for everything. If Flip has a system then great but you can mix in that regular pick play sometimes and against teams with bad defenses or slow bigs then you should do it a ton.

It makes me sick that we dont take advantage of Shaq but he kills us on the other end. It makes me sick that we dont run any real pick plays on a small bad defender like Nash when they have no interior defenders. There is no way in hell the Suns would stop Wall in one of those systems. No way. Just rewatch our games and see what Im talking about. Sometimes Wall looks bad but he really doesnt have much of a chance on alot of plays. He always has the defender right in front of him no matter what he does even though he's so explosive. Its that system! Get Flip out. Im sick of seeing it. Its not that bad for guys like Cassell & Billups because thats there game anyways. They dont want to go to the rim. They cant blow by bigs or get teams in foul trouble. All they want to do is that pull up J off the screen or pass it back to guys anyways.

To me you are taking away our biggest threat. Give Wall to a ton of other coaches and he gets to the line 10x a night and probably is a 20 & 10 guy without even having a jumper. Go talk to the Pistons fans & Wolves fans. They say his system is just designed for jumpers. Thats all we do. Dont tell me that NY cant ever get to the hoop. He doesnt have much of a chance in this sytem. Dray can get in the post more but he is right in that he's mostly outside setting screens. Thats why KG is even more of a jump shooter then a low post guy and even his post moves are mostly fades. I hate it. The only shot Wall will get in the halfcourt forever will be a pull up jumper. Is that what you want? Again, even then its not high percentage.

There is no doubt that his J will probably get better but still it sucks. Lets say he does make some of them. He still wont be getting to the line and we still will be a jump shooting team. I remember us even playing against great defensive/offensive bigs like Howard or Duncan and we could still beat them or play with them because of that play and Gil could get them in foul trouble where they would have to sit. That will never happen anymore. We wont ever come close to making a Howard or any other good big sit because we dont do that 1 thing that every team does and the saddest part is we probably have a top 3 guy along with Rose & Wade who would kill with it. Sometimes people, even Wiz fans say Wall is good but he needs other guys around him to make him look good. He cant do it on his own like a Rose or other guys can but thats B.S. Its the system. Its dependant on the other guys playing well but if he was in a normal system that he could carry a team or dominate a game on a consistent basis. It would make us look like a totally different team


For starts, the first play of the Boston game he took the middle hard on a PnR.

Setting strong screens has been an issue with this team all year but the lack of it isn't by design.

McGee has been releasing to early all year but did better against Boston
Yi has been as terrible releasing to early, but I have seen marked improvement lately.
Dray does an good job of setting them.
Seraphin is a monster at doing it but he hasnt been playing that much.

I wrote about this a ton earlier this year. It has been a problem but they are getting better. It isn't by design. Its players being more concerned with getting open themselves then setting the strong pick first. Flip has even commented on this as a problem. The screen setter are doing much better but Wall has to be patient until the pick is set. He moves to early to often.

Half of a successful PnR is the PG waiting for the pick to be set. Wall often starts to drive to early.

There were lots of effective picks this last game. Wall did a ton of them in the 4th driving right down the middle. Young team. Young PG. Not design.

1st Quarter
9:23 - McGee high screen. McGee holds and Wall drives off it one on one with the center. Gets fouled.

8:55 Lewis sets a strong screen and rubs off Rondo. Wall gets it back to Lewis for 2.

6:45 PnR Lewis & Wall - Lewis rubbed off Rondo

6:15 Lewis mixes it up and releases early heading to the baseline 3 wide open but missed.

4:26 Wall out with 2 fouls after big baby wasn't called for a moving pick on a fast break.

3:47 Mastafa PnR to Lewis on the wing shoots a floater for 2

3:15 Yi n Nick PnR but Nick doesn't take it. Yi actually stayed strong. Then when Nick ran the other way he popped back to the 3 and passes to Mastafa for the open 3 he missed.

3:00 after the rebound. Seraphin showed for a PnR with Matafa but never set up and curled to the hoop early. Rookie.

:22 Mastafa n Yi top right. Yi holds it again. Baby shows, Nate goes over the top. Mastafa makes a great 1 on 1 spin move going to the hoop. Stops short and pops and score +1

2nd Quarter

9:35 PnR Wall n McGee right top. McGee does pretty good. Wall fades to the corner. Bostons big follows so Nate and the Big are on Wall. He passes to Yi top who swings to AT to Martin who feeds to post to McGee who does a sweeping hook for 2. Nice play.

9:00 PnR Wall n Yi. Yi runs to set the high screen but Wall starts dribble right before Yi is even set. This is in semi transition. Baby shows to cut off the right dribble because he was already there. Nate goes under and Baby rolls to intercept the Wall pass to Yi. That was on Wall. He never let the play set up. Yi actually set another good pick. He is getting better at this.

6:48 McGee high post. Start to run for the Alley opp because the middle was open. Doesn't get the pass so he comes back up to set the pick but Wall starts to drive before he gets there. Rondo goes over the top trailing Wall who is one on one down the middle with on Big Turkey in front of him. Wall has McGee cutting to the hoop with him but passes out to Nick instead of finishing to the hoop.

5:40 PnR Wall n Dray top of key. Dray set a first pick and set off to get Rondo. Dray picks Rondo and he never gets back in the play. Not over or under. Dray stops him cold. Garnett can't cover and Wall drive down the middle for a lay up. ( Best Example of a PnR ) Wall started top right and let the play set up then went hard.

4:27. They run the same play as above. This time Garnett shows strong over the top as does Rondo. Dray never clips Rondo because Wall start to drive before he is set. Rondo recovers and takes the right side drive to the middle from Wall as Dray cuts to the hoop with him but Garnett is covering. The middle has two Boston players in it so Wall passes out to AT top wing and he get fouled as he comes across them middle. Dray could have taken a better angle on the pick and Wall could have been more patient. Just a split sec off in timing.

4:05 Wall n McGee. Again, Wall starts to drive before McGee is in place so McGee only gets a weak knee check which Rondo moves right past. Totally ineffective. Walls fault.

Last play of the half. Wall iso on top. No PnR. Drive the middle to score.

Again, the second half Wall took the middle several times.
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Post#9 Re: I Still Hate The System
Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:07 pm by dlts20

you guys are crazy. Ive been watching this for 2 years. I rewatch every single game on DVR and Im telling you that its by design. You think they do these things pretty much every single time by accident or because they are bad? Wall would be throwing a fit and Flip would be ripping them and benching them non stop.

Go watch the other teams and how tight they run it. Its night & day from ours
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Post#10 Re: I Still Hate The System
Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:25 pm by hands11

dlts20 wrote:you guys are crazy. Ive been watching this for 2 years. I rewatch every single game on DVR and Im telling you that its by design. You think they do these things pretty much every single time by accident or because they are bad? Wall would be throwing a fit and Flip would be ripping them and benching them non stop.

Go watch the other teams and how tight they run it. Its night & day from ours


You said go rewatch the game. I do anyway but I watch just for the PnR this time and I documented it. So if you don't want to read the facts, then that is crazy.

They ran some successful PnR. Sometimes they did it well and sometimes not as well. When someone runs the PnR it takes two player to make it work and that is the problem. But it is getting a lot better. They are setting better picks but Wall needs to wait and set it up better. A PG can make a pick setter look bad or even get the pick setter a foul if he doesn't wait till he is set.

Wall doesn't do a great job of setting up the PnR and McGee and Yi has been leaving early because McGee wants to roll to the basket for the Ally Op and Yi has wanted to pop for the open shot.

Now when we had Haywood, you had a good pick setter and Gil knew how to run it tight to use it.
McGee is no Haywood when it comes to setting picks and Wall is not Gil using it.

4th quarter

They didn't run a lot of it in this quarter at least not up top.

4:48 Wall n McGee. Rondo goes over the top. Garnett covers him and Rondo is trailing. Ally Op and Big Baby can't cover McGee on the help and gets the foul

2:00 Wall n Dray. Dray is set well. Wall goes left and rubs off Rondo who goes over the top. Garnet and Rondo are on Wall. Wall kick back to Dray is open for the shot but miss. Wall rebounds.

Again, they are not great at this but they are getting better.
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Post#11 Re: I Still Hate The System
Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:30 pm by dlts20

hands11 wrote:
dlts20 wrote:you guys are crazy. Ive been watching this for 2 years. I rewatch every single game on DVR and Im telling you that its by design. You think they do these things pretty much every single time by accident or because they are bad? Wall would be throwing a fit and Flip would be ripping them and benching them non stop.

Go watch the other teams and how tight they run it. Its night & day from ours


You said go rewatch the game. I do anyway but I watch just for the PnR this time and I documented it. So if you don't want to read the facts, then that is crazy.

They ran some successful PnR. Sometimes they did it well and sometimes not as well. When someone runs the PnR it takes two player to make it work and that is the problem. But it is getting a lot better. They are setting better picks but Wall needs to wait and set it up better. A PG can make a pick setter look bad or even get the pick setter a foul if he doesn't wait till he is set.

Wall doesn't do a great job of setting up the PnR and McGee and Yi has been leaving early because McGee wants to roll to the basket for the Ally Op and Yi has wanted to pop for the open shot.

Now when we had Haywood, you had a good pick setter and Gil knew how to run it tight to use it.
McGee is no Haywood when it comes to setting picks and Wall is not Gil using it.

4th quarter

They didn't run a lot of it in this quarter at least not up top.

4:48 Wall n McGee. Rondo goes over the top. Garnett covers him and Rondo is trailing. Ally Op and Big Baby can't cover McGee on the help and gets the foul

2:00 Wall n Dray. Dray is set well. Wall goes left and rubs off Rondo who goes over the top. Garnet and Rondo are on Wall. Wall kick back to Dray is open for the shot but miss. Wall rebounds.

Again, they are not great at this but they are getting better.

no, they leave early because thats the scheme. You always have to leave room for some exceptions. Flip has some plays where the screen is set tight but its like 1 out of 10 times, if that. There's always going to be some successful plays because these guys are talented. Its not like its going to fail every time. Im just saying that its a flawed scheme in general. Youre right, sometimes these guys dont set the picks well even for Flips scheme but for the most part the scheme just sucks. Dont forget that Wood was here last year until the trade and it was the same thing. We played the Cavs with Wood and they had Shaq & Z and we never ever did it. Trust me.

Not only that but its not just about Wall. Look at a guy like NY. Remember when EJ was here and we would do it with him sometimes just like Miami does it with Wade and NY would split the double alot? Thats what guys like Wall & NY can do. Now NY failed at times because he was young & dumb but imagine him doing it now. He could be another Wade. It would be unstoppable with his ability to handle the ball, either go around or split the double, pull up when the big backs up or blow by him if they dont. We dont do it, hands. Its Flip's system. Now you can argue that its a good system and we can debate that but please dont tell me that Flip runs it like most teams do. He doesnt and its stupid when you have guys like Wall & NY who could beast at it the other way
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Post#12 Re: I Still Hate The System
Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:30 pm by dlts20

Hands, I also wanted to say that Im just like you homie in thinking that for the most part Flip is a good coach. I have supported him at times when others have ripped him. I think his sub patterns are horrible at times but for the most part he's clearly a pretty good coach and much more so than EJ but I just think that the #1 thing in all of basketball is the p&r and I think the way he chooses to run it for the most part is not a good fit for every single team/player.

The way he runs it is perfect for a Cassell or Billups but if you have guys who can get to the rim like a Gil, Wall, Rose, Westbrook, and so on then it takes that away from them for the most part or it makes it really hard for them to do so. If you dont have a J then its also a thing that hurts you in it. Rondo wouldnt get to use the floater here. Nash couldnt keep his dribble alive and go down low on the baseline like he does so much in this system. I just think it limits you heavily in that regard and even for a guy like NY.

Then at the same time I think its clearly designed for jumpers nearly all the time. People always want to rip the players but this is a jump shooting system. Again, I said it pretty much forces the PG to do that, the curl guys on the wing pretty much always have to do it and the bigs set a ton of screens out high which means they have to do it. Thats what it is. Thats why he will never ever win a title, I dont care what star he has.

Wall will get a million assist because of the design of it but will never be even half as good as he could be with some other style. Again, the system wont kill us because we have some guys who can shoot it and we have some scorers for Wall to pass it to so we can at times put up numbers but it will never be consistent and it still takes away from our Franchise guy
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Post#13 Re: I Still Hate The System
Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:39 pm by fishercob

dlts20, you seem like a nice enough fellow. Has it occurred to you that you have no earthly idea what you're talking about?
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Post#14 Re: I Still Hate The System
Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:35 pm by long suffrin' boulez fan

fishercob wrote:dlts20, you seem like a nice enough fellow. Has it occurred to you that you have no earthly idea what you're talking about?


Ouch. Brutal Fish.

Was that the thing that Josh Howard told you not to repeat?
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Post#15 Re: I Still Hate The System
Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:30 pm by hands11

fishercob wrote:dlts20, you seem like a nice enough fellow. Has it occurred to you that you have no earthly idea what you're talking about?


Ouch.

But I will add this question.

Who got to the hoop more in the Boston game. Wall or Rondo ?

Granted, Wall did a few coast to coast plays but even so, Phil and Buck keep commenting on how much Wall was coming right down the middle and how that was going to open things up for other players.

Now it may have happened more in the Boston games than other games, but this team is still coming together and Wall is still learning how to be effective.
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Post#16 Re: I Still Hate The System
Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:20 pm by Ed Wood

dlts20 wrote:
The way he runs it is perfect for a Cassell or Billups but if you have guys who can get to the rim like a Gil, Wall, Rose, Westbrook, and so on then it takes that away from them for the most part or it makes it really hard for them to do so. If you dont have a J then its also a thing that hurts you in it. Rondo wouldnt get to use the floater here. Nash couldnt keep his dribble alive and go down low on the baseline like he does so much in this system. I just think it limits you heavily in that regard and even for a guy like NY.


Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the way it's being defended would be perfect for a guy like Cassell or Billups? I maintain that a significant impediment to a good pick and whatever game for this team is the fact that most of its players set bad picks but it's hard to set a good pick for John when the guy covering him is a couple of feet away and will step back to go under the pick at every opportunity. Everyone in the NBA is well aware of how inconsistent Wall can be with his jump shot and how he sometimes even lacks the confidence to take the shot when it's presented. As a result opposing defenses are basically scheming to create jump shots for Wall while preventing him from penetrating at all costs. Now if he were a guy like Cassell this would be a very bad approach because he'd be drilling jumpers and levitating bicycles all night. But with Wall it mostly makes our pick and roll game look like ****.

There are, after all, four potential shot opportunities that a pick-and-roll creates (ignoring players not involved in it directly): a shot at the rim for the ball handler if his man is rubbed off the the other defender sticks to his man, the same for the pick setter if the opposite occurs, a jumper for the pick setter if he's feeling frisky and both guys chase the ball handler and a jumper for the ball handler if everybody treats him like he has leprosy. Well right now Wall can't take advantage of that final option and so defenders will pick it every time, but just wait 'til he gets his shot right.
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Post#17 Re: I Still Hate The System
Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:14 am by Dat2U

Ed Wood wrote:Flip had previously coached the following point guards:

Chauncy Billups (twice actually, I totally forgot Chauncy was briefly in Minnesota).
Sam Cassell
Troy Hudson
Terrell Brandon
Stephan Marbury
Like one season of Terry Porter and Spudd Webb


Other than that one year of midget and whatever Porter was, Brandon is maybe the closest Flip has come to having a pure point guard and Brandon was regularly averaging 15+ points a game for those teams. Hell Flip got a fourteen point average out of Troy Hudson. Flip's system doesn't demand a true point guard and it isn't stopping Wall from doing anything. If anything the two halves Wall played tonight show that Wall is perfectly capable of being a dynamic player and it's his lack of consistency and aggression that are limiting his impact.

And the screens in Flip's offense are bad because our big men are terrible at screens. JaVale always leaves before setting the screen because JaVale always leaves before setting the screen. I suspect Flip isn't ordering him to be terrible at it, that's all natural.


One thing I notice about that list.

All the guys could consistently nail a mid to long range J. That's the one thing we know Flip's offense can create plenty of. Of course creating a mid-long range J for Wall is probably not playing to his strengths right now.

And yes you are absolutely right. Our guys are horrific at setting screens although K-Sera seems a bit more adapt at it that the others.
hands11 wrote:Of course Dray was an idiot. So were the fans for endlessly booing him. Had they not done that, they could have actually keep him around and traded him when his value wasn't rock bottom.
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Post#18 Re: I Still Hate The System
Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:54 am by pancakes3

Ed Wood wrote:Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the way it's being defended would be perfect for a guy like Cassell or Billups? I maintain that a significant impediment to a good pick and whatever game for this team is the fact that most of its players set bad picks but it's hard to set a good pick for John when the guy covering him is a couple of feet away and will step back to go under the pick at every opportunity. Everyone in the NBA is well aware of how inconsistent Wall can be with his jump shot and how he sometimes even lacks the confidence to take the shot when it's presented. As a result opposing defenses are basically scheming to create jump shots for Wall while preventing him from penetrating at all costs. Now if he were a guy like Cassell this would be a very bad approach because he'd be drilling jumpers and levitating bicycles all night. But with Wall it mostly makes our pick and roll game look like ****.

There are, after all, four potential shot opportunities that a pick-and-roll creates (ignoring players not involved in it directly): a shot at the rim for the ball handler if his man is rubbed off the the other defender sticks to his man, the same for the pick setter if the opposite occurs, a jumper for the pick setter if he's feeling frisky and both guys chase the ball handler and a jumper for the ball handler if everybody treats him like he has leprosy. Well right now Wall can't take advantage of that final option and so defenders will pick it every time, but just wait 'til he gets his shot right.


QFT.

however, one thing that did strike me about the current system is how right-dominated it is. what happened to the "even though wall is right anded, he PREFERS to finish with his left" talk we were fed a year ago?

if blatche/mcgee could pick LEFT and release RIGHT, our O would be more effective... if it doesn't make a difference to wall.
Bullets -> Wizards
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Post#19 Re: I Still Hate The System
Tue Mar 1, 2011 4:17 pm by closg00

With Saunders gone, assistant Randy Wittman ran the film session and a lengthy practice. Afterward, Wittman challenged the players to "look yourselves in the mirror and promise to bust you [tail] for these last 23 games."

The practice served as the first for newcomers Jordan Crawford and Maurice Evans, who played three games with the benefit of just one shootaround after arriving from Atlanta in the Kirk Hinrich deal. Evans, an eight-year veteran, said it was a new experience for him.

"Nah, I've never been in a situation like that. The closest I've come to that is All-American games growing up," he said with a smile. "But obviously, games didn't mean much then, so never at this level. You cant prepare for a situation like this in my opinion."

Crawford is learning to adjust to playing two positions, as the Wizards plan to use him some at backup point guard. "Learned a lot of the plays, competed with the guys, showed the coaches, a little bit what I could do. It felt good," Crawford said. "The coaches had confidence just to put me in before practice. So it was kind of like, not scrimmaging, but they was letting me be more free every time I got it and said call pick and roll, so we can get some movement, because I don't know the plays. Now I know the plays a little bit, it should be good tomorrow."


Just as many suspected, our two excellent outting against Dallas & Miami, were probably due to everyone being freed from the shackles of Flips system temporarily. That is slowly being "fixed"
Guys on a message board could do a better job managing the Wizards than Ernie Grunfeld.
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Post#20 Re: I Still Hate The System
Tue Mar 1, 2011 4:43 pm by cwb3

I am still stuck on the idea that someone, not paid by the Wizards organization, can actually stomach re-watching every game from the last 2 years.
montestewart wrote:Players really should wait until they're rookie coaches to become GMs.
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