ImageImageImageImageImage

Jordan Crawford

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

mhd
General Manager
Posts: 9,296
And1: 1,416
Joined: Mar 25, 2004

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#501 » by mhd » Sat Jan 5, 2013 2:44 pm

I wonder what type of value Crawford has around the league. He's exactly the type of player a contender would want in the sense that he's very cheap for the next 1.5 years and is a bench combo guard.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 66,723
And1: 18,999
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#502 » by nate33 » Sat Jan 5, 2013 2:54 pm

I wonder if his value is reaching the point where he might be a key component of an upcoming Cousins trade?

Crawford has definitely improved to the point where he can be a useful addition to many rosters. The question is, is he good enough to help a good team win? I'm not convinced that he can be reeled in enough if he was playing alongside better teammates. But in his defense, we really haven't given him the opportunity. On this team, Crawford has little choice but to jack up a bunch of shots.
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#503 » by hands11 » Sat Jan 5, 2013 4:11 pm

nate33 wrote:Jordan Crawford's stats (Last 10 games, Season, and Season per 36 minutes):

Code: Select all

Player      PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO  MIN  3P%  TS%  PER
last 10    20.3  4.9  5.7  1.0  0.0  3.3 35.8 .388 .588 19.1
season     16.1  4.1  4.6  0.8  0.1  2.7 30.4 .333 .518 16.8
season p36 19.3  4.9  5.5  0.9  0.1  3.2 30.4 .333 .518 16.8


His numbers for the season are respectable if a bit inefficient. His numbers over the last 10 games are awesome.


Seems you are coming full circle but you still want to trade him. Maybe they do one day, but for today, I enjoy watching him play for us. I just went back to read some of the early posts. People liked the idea of Crawford back then before it became board think that he is the worst and we need to trade him for a ham sandwich. Folks like the idea of him with Wall and Nick as a 3rd guard. I think what we have now is an upgrade to that model. Big picture, things are working out. They upgraded from Nick.

Wall
Beal/Crawford

If the rookie keeps up what he started 3 games ago, Beal is going to be a much more complete player then Nick was. Beal rebounds, drives, etc. Crawford keeps improving his numbers year over year and he is obviously a big ball type player. And as you pointed out, he is on a min hot streak again like he had earlier in the year. Keep in mind. He missed a game only 3 games ago with a bad ankle which he has been playing on for much of the year.

I remember a post I did a while about reviewing Crawford. Mostly it came down to him improving his straight on 3 ball and getting more foul calls while driving. If he could do that, kid is a beast.

I like were this team is headed. We haven't seen the fruits of the moves yet as wins, but it is starting to add up.

Wall/Temple/Price
Beal/Crawford

I'm excited to see that rotation. It has a little bit of everything. Temple and Price make for a good combination backing up PG. One tall that can defend 2 or 3 slots. One smaller and quicker PG/SG combo type that can guard the speedy PGs. Plus, Price as a back up PG won't need to do as much. i.e. carry the starting job. In that role, he can shoot some 3 balls as well which is capable of doing.

For SG - as mentioned. If Beal is really going to start hitting 3 balls like he has the last 3 games 8-15, then this is a game changer for the team. I have zero problem with that Beal starting if he approaches the game like he has the last 3 games. None at all. Beal is playing more like a man and his game face has changed. You can see it. Now add that Wall is returning.

Oh yeah. This is going to be fun.

As for Crawford. This has been the year of Big Ball becoming a legit NBA player. He is going to have a long career. I can see that now.

Best 4-27 team every for sure. Healthy, this team is going to be fun to watch and they will clearly win more games.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 66,723
And1: 18,999
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#504 » by nate33 » Sat Jan 5, 2013 4:56 pm

hands11 wrote:Seems you are coming full circle but you still want to trade him. Maybe they do one day, but for today, I enjoy watching him play for us. I just went back to read some of the early posts. People liked the idea of Crawford back then before it became board think that he is the worst and we need to trade him for a ham sandwich. Folks like the idea of him with Wall and Nick as a 3rd guard. I think what we have now is an upgrade to that model. Big picture, things are working out. They upgraded from Nick..

My opinion on Crawford has been consistent throughout. Early on, when everyone loved him, I cautioned that he was merely a low percentage scorer on a bad team and that to become a difference maker on a good team, he would need to improve his shot and his shot selection. I said that he was little better than a "break glass in case of emergency" type player; but if he improved, he could become a useful 3rd guard. I also continually stated that, to be fair to Crawford, he pretty much has to be a gunner given the offensive ineptitude of his teammates.

I was never in the "addition by subtraction" crowd who really thought that Crawford was detrimental to the team.

My opinion today remains pretty much unchanged. He has improved to the point where I think he is now knocking on the door to being a useful 3rd guard. He is already good enough to be a 3rd guard on a bad team. It remains to be seen whether he's good enough to be a 3rd guard on a good team. That'll depend on his shot selection and efficiency if and when he gets to play alongside good teammates.
Benjammin
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,976
And1: 355
Joined: Jan 18, 2003

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#505 » by Benjammin » Sat Jan 5, 2013 5:00 pm

You try to trade from a position of strength, not weakness. If JC's perception around the league has improved and he has value, absolutely I would explore things while he is playing well. I am doubtful that he has had a fundamental change in his game.
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#506 » by hands11 » Sat Jan 5, 2013 5:15 pm

nate33 wrote:
hands11 wrote:Seems you are coming full circle but you still want to trade him. Maybe they do one day, but for today, I enjoy watching him play for us. I just went back to read some of the early posts. People liked the idea of Crawford back then before it became board think that he is the worst and we need to trade him for a ham sandwich. Folks like the idea of him with Wall and Nick as a 3rd guard. I think what we have now is an upgrade to that model. Big picture, things are working out. They upgraded from Nick..

My opinion on Crawford has been consistent throughout. Early on, when everyone loved him, I cautioned that he was merely a low percentage scorer on a bad team and that to become a difference maker on a good team, he would need to improve his shot and his shot selection. I said that he was little better than a "break glass in case of emergency" type player; but if he improved, he could become a useful 3rd guard. I also continually stated that, to be fair to Crawford, he pretty much has to be a gunner given the offensive ineptitude of his teammates.

I was never in the "addition by subtraction" crowd who really thought that Crawford was detrimental to the team.

My opinion today remains pretty much unchanged. He has improved to the point where I think he is now knocking on the door to being a useful 3rd guard. He is already good enough to be a 3rd guard on a bad team. It remains to be seen whether he's good enough to be a 3rd guard on a good team. That'll depend on his shot selection and efficiency if and when he gets to play alongside good teammates.


But wouldn't you have traded him by now ?

I remember going back and forth with you over Crawford. I was staying wait, he can get there. You were on the side of, he hasn't show a reason to believe he will and he has so far to go just to get to average. I didn't think that wasn't true because it looked to be so much based on his 3 ball and getting shooting fouls. Those go up, all his lower numbers go up.

In the trade thread Crawford would have been traded already 100 times over. My view is, he is getting better and I think he will continue to do so. His keep value/trade value is up, but I think it is going higher. People in the press are starting to take notice that he is one of the best bench guards in the league.

Not sure, I could be wrong, by consistent throughout seems to be over stating your position regarding Crawford. Maybe I am confusing you with someone else.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 66,723
And1: 18,999
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#507 » by nate33 » Sat Jan 5, 2013 5:29 pm

I caution you not to believe that his current streak is sustainable. Crawford does not have the type of game that will enable him to maintain a TS% in the 58% range. He shoots too many contested long 2's and doesn't get to the line enough. He is on a hot streak and will come back down to Earth. That's not to say that he hasn't improved this year. He definitely has. But I think his season averages are more indicative of they type of player that he is rather than are his averages over the past 10 games.

Crawford remains what I consider to be an inefficient volume scorer. He isn't comfortable off the ball, and he's not efficient enough to be primary ball handler in a starting unit of a good team. He has improved in both areas, but still has a ways to go. At his age, with 3 years under his belt, I suspect that he is close to peaking. Like I've said before, I believe he now has a role in this league and he deserves plenty of credit for that. But I think there is very little chance that he becomes a star or a starting caliber player. But hey, a quality 3rd guard is a nice thing to have too. Let's hope he gets to that point and stays there.
User avatar
TGW
RealGM
Posts: 12,581
And1: 5,852
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#508 » by TGW » Sat Jan 5, 2013 6:02 pm

He is on a streak just like Nick Young got on a hot streak when he played here...it's not sustainable, because as Nate pointed out, he still takes bad shots. It's just that lately, many of them have been going in.

Trading him now, while he has some value, would be the smart move.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#509 » by hands11 » Sat Jan 5, 2013 6:05 pm

But for the record.

He is playing as well at the starting SG of the LAC who are in 2nd place and the starting SG of the NYN who are in 5th play.

Opinions aside. Those are the facts.

If those are two of the top 5 team in the league, then he clearly could be starting in this league.

So the fact that we have him as a back up SG who can play PG when needed is a really nice thing to have. Specially at 1M a year.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 66,723
And1: 18,999
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#510 » by nate33 » Sat Jan 5, 2013 9:12 pm

hands11 wrote:But for the record.

He is playing as well at the starting SG of the LAC who are in 2nd place and the starting SG of the NYN who are in 5th play.

Opinions aside. Those are the facts.

If those are two of the top 5 team in the league, then he clearly could be starting in this league.

So the fact that we have him as a back up SG who can play PG when needed is a really nice thing to have. Specially at 1M a year.

Fact: Garrett Temple is statistically playing about as well as the starting PG for the 2012 World Champion Miami Heat.
Fact: Bradley Beal is statistically outplaying the starting SG on the 2011 World Champion Dallas Mavericks
Fact: Martell Webster is statistically outplaying the starting SF on the 2007 World Champion San Antonio Spurs
Fact: Nene is statistically outplaying the starting PF on the 2006 World Champion Miami Heat
Fact: Okafor is statistically outplaying the starting C on the 2008 World Champion Boston Celtics.

Opinions aside. These are facts. Clearly, the Wizards should be winning championships with this lineup.
montestewart
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 14,565
And1: 7,699
Joined: Feb 25, 2009

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#511 » by montestewart » Sat Jan 5, 2013 9:53 pm

nate33 wrote:
hands11 wrote:But for the record.

He is playing as well at the starting SG of the LAC who are in 2nd place and the starting SG of the NYN who are in 5th play.

Opinions aside. Those are the facts.

If those are two of the top 5 team in the league, then he clearly could be starting in this league.

So the fact that we have him as a back up SG who can play PG when needed is a really nice thing to have. Specially at 1M a year.

Fact: Garrett Temple is statistically playing about as well as the starting PG for the 2012 World Champion Miami Heat.
Fact: Bradley Beal is statistically outplaying the starting SG on the 2011 World Champion Dallas Mavericks
Fact: Martell Webster is statistically outplaying the starting SF on the 2007 World Champion San Antonio Spurs
Fact: Nene is statistically outplaying the starting PF on the 2006 World Champion Miami Heat
Fact: Okafor is statistically outplaying the starting C on the 2008 World Champion Boston Celtics.

Opinions aside. These are facts. Clearly, the Wizards should be winning championships with this lineup.

Heat, Spurs, Mavs, Celts...man, the Wizards are loaded. Give it time, like a fine wine.

Image
hands11
Banned User
Posts: 31,171
And1: 2,444
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#512 » by hands11 » Sat Jan 5, 2013 9:56 pm

nate33 wrote:
hands11 wrote:But for the record.

He is playing as well at the starting SG of the LAC who are in 2nd place and the starting SG of the NYN who are in 5th play.

Opinions aside. Those are the facts.

If those are two of the top 5 team in the league, then he clearly could be starting in this league.

So the fact that we have him as a back up SG who can play PG when needed is a really nice thing to have. Specially at 1M a year.

Fact: Garrett Temple is statistically playing about as well as the starting PG for the 2012 World Champion Miami Heat.
Fact: Bradley Beal is statistically outplaying the starting SG on the 2011 World Champion Dallas Mavericks
Fact: Martell Webster is statistically outplaying the starting SF on the 2007 World Champion San Antonio Spurs
Fact: Nene is statistically outplaying the starting PF on the 2006 World Champion Miami Heat
Fact: Okafor is statistically outplaying the starting C on the 2008 World Champion Boston Celtics.

Opinions aside. These are facts. Clearly, the Wizards should be winning championships with this lineup.


That is completely different from what I was saying.

Are you suggesting that you don't compare Crawford and other players against current peers when evaluating their worth or starter potential in the league. Because that is all I did. What you did was totally different.

Taking multiple players and comparing them against players in past years then putting that information together to say they should be the best in the league ? Yeah. ok. And you infer this is using the same logic as saying one play given his stats against his peer group shows he could start for one of the many teams in the league including some of the better ones ? Not even remotely the same thing.
jivelikenice
Analyst
Posts: 3,074
And1: 145
Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#513 » by jivelikenice » Sat Jan 5, 2013 11:20 pm

Crawford has improved a great deal, but I'd still shop him. I just don't feel comfortable having Jordan on our roster in a contract yr or giving him the extension he'll be looking for.

Also, while he is improved, I still view him as a sixth man type only. The longer he's on the floor, he'll hurt you like he did in basically losing the game in the first OT yesterday. And when he's not "on", just limit his minutes.....the problem I see is his lack of respect for those around him. I don't mean this as a slight but on this team he just won't view himself as anything other than the go to guy on this team. And one more ting about him....I'm just not sure the losing gets to him as long as he gets his touches and produces....I don't get the feeling that he's terribly disappointed by how this season has played out.
Dat2U
RealGM
Posts: 23,492
And1: 7,062
Joined: Jun 23, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
       

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#514 » by Dat2U » Sun Jan 6, 2013 12:15 am

I love that Crawford is increasing his trade value. I wouldn't hesitate to include him in the right package though. Only assets that I'd likely hold onto is Wall, Beal, the 2013 & 2014 picks. We are so bereft of talent that I'm not feeling the idea of parting with a likely high lottery pick at this point. Plus the 2014 draft projects to be very strong. If anything, I'm trying to add picks, especially '14 1st rounders.
80sballboy
RealGM
Posts: 23,745
And1: 5,650
Joined: Jul 15, 2006
       

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#515 » by 80sballboy » Sun Jan 6, 2013 1:14 am

Dat2U wrote:I love that Crawford is increasing his trade value. I wouldn't hesitate to include him in the right package though. Only assets that I'd likely hold onto is Wall, Beal, the 2013 & 2014 picks. We are so bereft of talent that I'm not feeling the idea of parting with a likely high lottery pick at this point. Plus the 2014 draft projects to be very strong. If anything, I'm trying to add picks, especially '14 1st rounders.


Not sure he has much trade value. Scouts don't look at stats. Just watch the games. He's an undersized two with vey ilttle inclination to defend or pass. He can make some incredible shots and heat up. Maybe with a better team, he'd be a more consistent 6th man type of scorer. We won 4 games with him as the number one option. Beal is the future and present. When Wall and Price return and if they keep Temple in the rotation or at leat around, his minutes will diminish since he's playing some 1.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 66,723
And1: 18,999
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#516 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 6, 2013 1:35 am

80sballboy wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I love that Crawford is increasing his trade value. I wouldn't hesitate to include him in the right package though. Only assets that I'd likely hold onto is Wall, Beal, the 2013 & 2014 picks. We are so bereft of talent that I'm not feeling the idea of parting with a likely high lottery pick at this point. Plus the 2014 draft projects to be very strong. If anything, I'm trying to add picks, especially '14 1st rounders.


Not sure he has much trade value. Scouts don't look at stats. Just watch the games. He's an undersized two with vey ilttle inclination to defend or pass. He can make some incredible shots and heat up. Maybe with a better team, he'd be a more consistent 6th man type of scorer. We won 4 games with him as the number one option. Beal is the future and present. When Wall and Price return and if they keep Temple in the rotation or at leat around, his minutes will diminish since he's playing some 1.

I disagree. If scouts and front office men have a weakness, it's that they overweigh the value of points per game even when accumulated without efficiency. There are lots of bad GMs in this league. Some will be intrigued by Crawford's recent production.
User avatar
FAH1223
RealGM
Posts: 15,858
And1: 6,954
Joined: Nov 01, 2005
Location: Laurel, MD
       

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#517 » by FAH1223 » Sun Jan 6, 2013 1:45 am

nate33 wrote:I disagree. If scouts and front office men have a weakness, it's that they overweigh the value of points per game even when accumulated without efficiency. There are lots of bad GMs in this league. Some will be intrigued by Crawford's recent production.


Unfortunately, we have one of those bad GMs.
Image
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 66,723
And1: 18,999
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#518 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 6, 2013 1:51 am

FAH1223 wrote:
nate33 wrote:I disagree. If scouts and front office men have a weakness, it's that they overweigh the value of points per game even when accumulated without efficiency. There are lots of bad GMs in this league. Some will be intrigued by Crawford's recent production.


Unfortunately, we have one of those bad GMs.

Indeed.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#519 » by Nivek » Sun Jan 6, 2013 12:51 pm

Nate is correct. Scouts and GMs are unduly influenced by per game points, rebounds and assists. Something like 90% of player salary can be explained by these per game "glory stats."
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
payitforward
RealGM
Posts: 21,911
And1: 7,846
Joined: May 02, 2012
Location: On the Atlantic

Re: Jordan Crawford 

Post#520 » by payitforward » Sun Jan 6, 2013 2:50 pm

Nivek wrote:Nate is correct. Scouts and GMs are unduly influenced by per game points, rebounds and assists. Something like 90% of player salary can be explained by these per game "glory stats."

I don't take a back seat to anyone in criticizing Jordan Crawford. He was absolutely terrible in his first two years.

On the other hand, we now have 900 minutes this year -- a reasonable sample size -- and there is no question he is substantially improved over the guy we saw last year. Per 40 minutes, he has fewer fouls, better ball-possession stats (rebounds plus steals minus turnovers), more assists, a better FT%, higher 3pt%, higher 2pt%, and takes fewer shots.

Using WS40 (which does not overvalue points scored inefficiently, as PER does) to compare him to other 2 guards who play 20+ minutes a game, Crawford is now producing somewhere near an average rate -- certainly much much better than either of his first two seasons.

His shooting efficiency, however, is still his problem -- if you just look at 2 guards playing 20+ minutes, 2/3 of them are more efficient. Combine that with his being #6 in field goal attempts per 40 minutes, and you see the problem!

Still... no question he is a better player than at any previous point in his career. Improvement in the 3d year is a good sign for an NBA player.
Breaking News: In a shocking development, Wizards owner Ted Leonsis has sold the NBA franchise to a consortium of participants in a discussion board devoted to the team on realgm.com. Details to follow....

Return to Washington Wizards