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Jan Vesely

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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1341 » by hands11 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:04 am

dobrojim wrote:I think your EG hate is affecting your logic

you seem to say, they over-valued him before they drafted him and will
soon undervalue him due to impatience. Do you really believe that?
It's not like he's that old.


Agreed. Again. In two years when they have more cap space they will still be very young and Ves will only be 24. Kevin S will be 24. Beal will be 21. Wall will be 24. etc. etc.

Now is not the time to be over judging Ves or being overly critical of what this team is. Everyone will have more to work with after this year is done.

People seems to keep missing the very basic formula that they are following.
They have 3 top 6 picks. One is a #1 who has 2 years experience and 1 is a #3 that played 4 preseason games. One is a project big #6 who played in one strike shortened season with no summer game. Ves doesn't need to be an all star this year. He doesn't even need to be one next year. They have time to work this out.

They have a bunch of other young mid range talent who could still blossom. Kevin is looking pretty damn good. Two years ago people though he was a bust. Booker look very limited offensively his first year. Now some thing he could have a great year and they expect him to hit from midrange. After year one, not many though he would had a mid range game. His shot looked terrible.

And they have a sprinkling a vets all of which are on one or two year contracts except one. NENE who is one a four year deal.

This is what they said they would do and it is what they did. Now they play the games and see how they progress.

Considering we have had a few visitors from other teams posting here saying they thing the Wiz are playoff worthy if healthy, I think to many hear are holding onto sour grapes. Just draw a line in the sand and look forward. Things are actually different. If just a matter of when some of you realize it.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1342 » by montestewart » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:11 am

I think the Wizards followed that formula too (although it's an extremely complicated formula that's very difficult to follow), only instead of a #4 pick, they had a #3 pick. And I know you're just trying to get me to say #2 or something, but by when exactly does Vesely need to be an all star for the formula to work?

PS: Booker was grrrrrrreat! his first year.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1343 » by hands11 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:24 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
dobrojim wrote:I think your EG hate is affecting your logic

you seem to say, they over-valued him before they drafted him and will
soon undervalue him due to impatience. Do you really believe that?
It's not like he's that old.


I am saying both things. They should never had drafted him over Faried and Leonard. Said so before the draft and know so now.

Just because Vesely is a brick mason, especially from the line, and he cannot play SF doesn't mean he's not a useful, even effective basketball player. I like watching he play because Jan is unselfish, Jan thinks the game well, Jan sets picks, Jan does the little things. For a first-year player he was far from a star but he was pretty good playing alongside Nene and Beal. jim, I think Ernie was a dolt for bringing in Okafor. Between PF and C there are 96 minutes each game. Seraphin, Booker, and Nene will play. Why bring in Okafor? Because the person who did it was Ernie Grunfeld. Ted wanted to get a player and not buy out Rashard. They both spun the "solid veteran" yarn to justify the acquisition. They cited YOUTH as part of the Wizards problem. This squeezed minutes from Jan and also put pressure on him to be things he is not. They're critical of Jan now and he's pressing.

Yes, I'm saying both things, jim. Drafted Jan too high and now they're creating an environment that DECREASES his longterm chances for success. He gets less minutes and will get a quicker hook on each mistake. Wittman could be like Flip--he has to have a doghouse. Seemingly every NBA coach puts the young guys in the doghouse first. I think Vesely is a utility player who can actually contribute to a winning team.

Jan won't kill a team like a shooter who can't do anything else. Take Danilo Gallinari, for example. I think George Karl is going to lose playing that guy too many minutes. Jan can usually not be a negative.


Ves is not going to get the quick hook. You just outlined the reasons why. He does all those little things. He isn't going to get yanked for missing a few shots because he does set the picks. He is active. He does read and rotate on defense well. They want him to start taking some more outside shots. They aren't going to stress over him missing. Specially when he only takes like 2 a game. And when he starts hitting a few, he will build more confidence.

Right now the major flaw I see in his shot is that he is shooting on the way down. Something we saw Wall do last year in his second year. Wall was also a poor outside shooter. But rumor is, he improved his shot a lot in the summer of his 3rd year.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1344 » by DANNYLANDOVER » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:03 am

Those who preach for patience with Jan should understand why some of us aren't content with his development so far; he was picked too high (not his fault). He was supposed to be a running mate for Wall and a cornerstone for rebuilding this franchise. Assuming Wall turns into Westbrook/Rose this season, where is the young supporting cast? Basically, for all the tanking we did that season, all we have to show for it is a no-offensive talent Euro. Can you imagine if we had the 6th pick in this last draft and picked Drummond? Our future would be looking much brighter right now. Also, I don't agree with the point that CCJ makes about the acquisition of Okafor cutting into Jan's minutes. Okafor is a better player both offensively and defensively, so he deserves to play ahead of Jan. If Jan wants his minutes, he has to prove to the coaches that he's better than Okafor. Also, Okafor mainly plays center which Jan is definitely too weak to play. IMO Jan should be sent down to the D-league to hone his skills. Randy is fighting to keep his coaching job, not to keep playing ineffective young players till they get better.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1345 » by dangermouse » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:26 am

Yep, D-League seems logical to me. He is quite an intelligent player. He knows where to be on the court. He tried hard. He is just too weak to play C and we are PF full. Most of the time he is too weak for PF too. Send him to the D-League to get confidence and tell him to hit the weights hard.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1346 » by llcc25 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:53 pm

I wish we could go back and drafted Klay Thompson. How good would we look with Wall, and Beal and Thompson at the wings?
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1347 » by hands11 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:15 am

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wiz ... an-vesely/

I really like Randy. He knows how to talk straight to the players and he has good expectations. Like I said, they don't care if he missed, they care how he misses. Specially in preseason, they want Ves to shoot.

“I said, ‘You’ve got to play with confidence with energy. I don’t care if you miss shots, but you’ve got to take shots aggressively, like you want to take them,’ “ Wittman said. “I thought [in Brooklyn], he didn’t. He’s got to realize. It’s not about making and missing shots. It’s about how. Is he going into that shot as if he means it? I mean we all miss shots. But it’s how you miss them, that’s important.”

“I mean, sometimes, I feel like, I’m not focused in my game. I just need to play hard and put everything in the game. So, that was his point,” said Vesely, the sixth overall pick in 2011. “I’m going to try to do that. I’m happy that he’s talking to me. He let me know he trusts me. So I try to do my best to put it on the court.”

And Ves responds ..

Ves with the 15 foot baseline turnaround rainbow .... nothing but net. That is a shot I don't think I have ever seen him take.

Ves just called and told me to tell you guys.... how you like me know.. :wink:

jk of course but that was nice to see.

I missed the first half of the game but Ves was 5-8 11 pts and 1-1 from the line. Rebounding numbers looked weak but so did Okafors. Both only had 2 rebounds. Okafor scored the same amount of pts but had 9 FTAs which is nice. He made 5 which isn't so great.

The Wiz had 7 players in double figures. 4 with 11 pts.

I missed all of Bookers 12 pts on 6-7 shooting. Man they miss Bookers efficiency.

Trevor A must be shooting .250 on the year so far. Trevor A was 2-8 tonight and 0-3 from 3. And Crawford was at his chucking best tonight. 3-13 and 0-2 from 3.

Not sure what is going on with Martin. If he isn't earning the burn, they messed up in not resigning Mason. Mason was a mature reliable vet back up 2 who could hit the 3 ball. And in my book he was already a true Wizard. I was almost curtain they would resign him. Not sure what happened there.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1348 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:47 pm

llcc25 wrote:I wish we could go back and drafted Klay Thompson. How good would we look with Wall, and Beal and Thompson at the wings?

Not very....

If you're going to "go back", it's kind of obvious that you'd draft Kawhi Leonard (and Faried at #18).
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1349 » by GhostsOfGil » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:05 pm

payitforward wrote:
llcc25 wrote:I wish we could go back and drafted Klay Thompson. How good would we look with Wall, and Beal and Thompson at the wings?

Not very....

If you're going to "go back", it's kind of obvious that you'd draft Kawhi Leonard (and Faried at #18).


Klay Thompson at 6 Faried at 18. :o

Realistically, Nene for Mcgee probably wouldn't go down if Denver didn't land Faried. Also us landing the 3rd pick is a big "if" but damn...

Wall
Beal/MKG/Barnes(?)
Thompson
Faried
Okafor
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1350 » by nate33 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:48 pm

GhostsOfGil wrote:
payitforward wrote:
llcc25 wrote:I wish we could go back and drafted Klay Thompson. How good would we look with Wall, and Beal and Thompson at the wings?

Not very....

If you're going to "go back", it's kind of obvious that you'd draft Kawhi Leonard (and Faried at #18).


Klay Thompson at 6 Faried at 18. :o

Realistically, Nene for Mcgee probably wouldn't go down if Denver didn't land Faried. Also us landing the 3rd pick is a big "if" but damn...

Wall
Beal/MKG/Barnes(?)
Thompson
Faried
Okafor

Then take CCJ's suggestion of scrapping the Okafor trade and instead using the cap room on Asik:

Wall
Beal/Webster
Thompson/Webster
Faried/Booker
Nene/Asik

And we'd still have Seraphin as a trade chip or to groom as a Nene replacement.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1351 » by Brenice » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:56 pm

Ernie swings for the fences too much. He strikes out too much and rarely connects.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1352 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:04 pm

nate33 wrote:
GhostsOfGil wrote:Klay Thompson at 6 Faried at 18. :o

Realistically, Nene for Mcgee probably wouldn't go down if Denver didn't land Faried. Also us landing the 3rd pick is a big "if" but damn...

Wall
Beal/MKG/Barnes(?)
Thompson
Faried
Okafor

Then take CCJ's suggestion of scrapping the Okafor trade and instead using the cap room on Asik:

Wall
Beal/Webster
Thompson/Webster
Faried/Booker
Nene/Asik

And we'd still have Seraphin as a trade chip or to groom as a Nene replacement.

Again, Leonard is a better player than Klay Thompson. Much better. Way better. Klay Thompson is a slight improvement on Nick Young.

Why is everyone always in love w/ guys who shoot a lot?
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1353 » by fugop » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:56 pm

Leonard might be better than Thompson, but "way better" is an exaggeration.

http://bkref.com/tiny/lME9B

I like the fact that Thompson shoots the three better, and was able to post near comparable efficiency with much higher usg (24.7 v. 14.5). I would be happy with either -- Thompson/MKG would make a great swing rotation, as would Beal/Leonard.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1354 » by closg00 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:34 pm

fugop wrote:Leonard might be better than Thompson, but "way better" is an exaggeration.

http://bkref.com/tiny/lME9B

I like the fact that Thompson shoots the three better, and was able to post near comparable efficiency with much higher usg (24.7 v. 14.5). I would be happy with either -- Thompson/MKG would make a great swing rotation, as would Beal/Leonard.


+1 Both have been good for their positions.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1355 » by hands11 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:14 am

This is the Ves thread right ?

Ves did just step up to Randy's little talk.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wiz ... an-vesely/

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400400519

Ves did make a sick turnaround baseline shot.

So instead of Ves getting some love we get more ifs and buts about what would have been.

Come on people. Follow the players you like on whatever team they landed on. But they aren't here. This is a decent little roster worthy of getting some love. How about investing a little of that rosy glasses approach to your own team.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1356 » by closg00 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:04 am

Guess-what hands, this is a message board, stop trying to micromanage opinions.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1357 » by hands11 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:34 am

closg00 wrote:Guess-what hands, this is a message board, stop trying to micromanage opinions.


How about you take you own advice for the same reason.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1358 » by montestewart » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:52 am

hands11 wrote:
closg00 wrote:Guess-what hands, this is a message board, stop trying to micromanage opinions.


How about you take you own advice for the same reason.

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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1359 » by payitforward » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:11 pm

fugop wrote:Leonard might be better than Thompson, but "way better" is an exaggeration.

http://bkref.com/tiny/lME9B

I like the fact that Thompson shoots the three better, and was able to post near comparable efficiency with much higher usg (24.7 v. 14.5). I would be happy with either -- Thompson/MKG would make a great swing rotation, as would Beal/Leonard.

Near comparable efficiency? Lets start w/ a 3% deficit in TS% -- and no that's not "near comparable" in my book. But it's KT's best facet. Nothing else is comparable to what Leonard does (compared across players at their respective positions -- i.e. treating KT as a 2, whereas in fact he's sort of a 2.5).

To use some overall measures, KL posted an 11.2 WS40 -- KT was 4.2. Their WP48 #s aren't in the same universe (Leonard in the sky; Thompson on the floor). Even PER, which highly overvalues shooting (more shots pushes you up more than efficiency does), gives a substantial edge to Leonard.

Usage, which you cite, is an overrated concept -- a player is "used" every minute he's on the floor. Rebounds reflect "usage." Ditto everything else that shows up.
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Re: Jan Vesely 

Post#1360 » by payitforward » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:15 pm

closg00 wrote:
fugop wrote:Leonard might be better than Thompson, but "way better" is an exaggeration.

http://bkref.com/tiny/lME9B

I like the fact that Thompson shoots the three better, and was able to post near comparable efficiency with much higher usg (24.7 v. 14.5). I would be happy with either -- Thompson/MKG would make a great swing rotation, as would Beal/Leonard.


+1 Both have been good for their positions.

Actually, no. Thompson did not have a good rookie season. You like him because he scored a lot of points. I agree he was a pretty good shooter. He shoots a little better than Nick Young. He does everything else a little better than Nick too. That's what he is so far; he's a little better than Nick Young.

Leonard, as a rookie, was one of the top 3s in the league. Barring injury, he is likely to be a star -- just as Popovich and his teammates repeatedly say.
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