The Amazingly Sucky March and April John Wall thread

jivelikenice · Post #121 » by **jivelikenice** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:22 pm

The problem was offensive also. We blew so many leads because of offensive style didn't translate to fourth quarter basketball. Those teams had a repuation around the league for blowing big leads in no time at all.

Players played well while Arenas was here but its a mistake IMO to discredit them by saying it was based on Gil raising their level of play. Jamison has been a flawed but very good scorer in this league for a long time.

About my theory on shoot first pgs, Wade isn't a pg...He's a 2 and he had Shaw taking pressure off of him as you mentioned. Isaiah could score, but his game wasn't based around his ability to score (career average of 9.3 apg). Rose will be an interesting test case. I think he MIGHT go as far as the Finals, but this role is taking a toll on him and it will be interesting to see how he responds with Lebron guarding him as he did last yr. It will be interesting to see how it plays out and I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong.

Nivek · Post #122 » by **Nivek** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:32 pm

jivelikenice wrote:The problem was offensive also. We blew so many leads because of offensive style didn't translate to fourth quarter basketball. Those teams had a repuation around the league for blowing big leads in no time at all.

We should all know better than to go by "reputation" or even memory. I don't have time to research this topic at the moment so I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm highly skeptical of this claim. When I get some time, I'll research it. (Or someone else can, if they're so inclined.

)

Players played well while Arenas was here but its a mistake IMO to discredit them by saying it was based on Gil raising their level of play. Jamison has been a flawed but very good scorer in this league for a long time.

No doubt on Jamison. Hughes had a career year and got a huge contract after playing with Arenas. He went to play with Lebron and was never the same. Stevenson came to Washington on a one-year, league minimum deal, and ended up getting 4 years and $16 million in his next contract. Jeffries literally could not have played for many NBA teams -- certainly not as a starter -- because of his offensive deficiencies.

About my theory on shoot first pgs, Wade isn't a pg...He's a 2 and he had Shaw taking pressure off of him as you mentioned. Isaiah could score, but his game wasn't based around his ability to score (career average of 9.3 apg). Rose will be an interesting test case. I think he MIGHT go as far as the Finals, but this role is taking a toll on him and it will be interesting to see how he responds with Lebron guarding him as he did last yr. It will be interesting to see how it plays out and I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong.

It's an interesting question. Like I said, I don't think it matters where the points come from, just so long as they come efficiently. But this is an open question. I don't know the answer either. I'm dubious about using championships or Finals as the measure because it's such a narrow ledge for success and the sample size of useful information about champions/finalists is on the small side. Another interesting research question.

Jay81 · Post #123 » by **Jay81** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:02 pm

Wall is the 6th fastest player in nba history to score 2000 pts and have 1000 assists. Had he had better teammates..he might of been the 3rd or 4th fastest

Maybe some of us including myself need to stfu a bit

Dat2U · Post #124 » by **Dat2U** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:36 pm

Jay81 wrote:Wall is the 6th fastest player in nba history to score 2000 pts and have 1000 assists. Had he had better teammates..he might of been the 3rd or 4th fastest

Maybe some of us including myself need to stfu a bit

But he wasn't the first. And he couldn't bring out the best in Blatche, McGee, Young & Lewis. So obviously he's not all that.

If we can get Lillard or Zeller and a player we should do it because he also has this bad habit of speaking too fast.

And I just don't like the cut of his jib.

Oh, and he's a PG version of Javale McGee. I don't think that's been mentioned enough.

JonathanJoseph · Post #125 » by **JonathanJoseph** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:51 pm

Jay81 wrote:Wall is the 6th fastest player in nba history to score 2000 pts and have 1000 assists. Had he had better teammates..he might of been the 3rd or 4th fastest

Maybe some of us including myself need to stfu a bit

I think this makes the opposite point you think it makes.

Illuminaire · Post #126 » by **Illuminaire** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:04 pm

JonathanJoseph wrote:
Jay81 wrote:Wall is the 6th fastest player in nba history to score 2000 pts and have 1000 assists. Had he had better teammates..he might of been the 3rd or 4th fastest

Maybe some of us including myself need to stfu a bit

I think this makes the opposite point you think it makes.

Are you really trying to insinuate that Wall reaching a significant milestone with historic speed is a bad thing, JJ?

JonathanJoseph · Post #127 » by **JonathanJoseph** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:30 pm

Illuminaire wrote:
JonathanJoseph wrote:
Jay81 wrote:Wall is the 6th fastest player in nba history to score 2000 pts and have 1000 assists. Had he had better teammates..he might of been the 3rd or 4th fastest

Maybe some of us including myself need to stfu a bit

I think this makes the opposite point you think it makes.

Are you really trying to insinuate that Wall reaching a significant milestone with historic speed is a bad thing, JJ?

I'm suggesting that it may help make the point that Wall's statistical accomplishments are empty calories.

jivelikenice · Post #128 » by **jivelikenice** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:41 pm

Did he have a good game last night? They won so by your view that should be another good game, right?

JJ, for the record....what would you do with Wall at this point if you were part of the FO?

Chocolate City Jordanaire · Post #129 » by **Chocolate City Jordanaire** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:42 pm

Jay81 wrote:Wall is the 6th fastest player in nba history to score 2000 pts and have 1000 assists. Had he had better teammates..he might of been the 3rd or 4th fastest

Maybe some of us including myself need to stfu a bit

I would like to see the FG%, points, and winning % of Wall's opposing PGs and their teams in those games.

Also, I would like to see turnovers and turnover ratios between Wall and opponents.

If you're going to count assists as a measure of greatness, why not look at the efficiency stats, too? Wall might make up for things with his blocks, steals, and rebounds; but I'm thinking his inability to consistently make shots combined with the tendency of whoever he's supposed to guard making shots would minimize some of Wall's accolades.

I have a like/hate thing with John Wall.

Illuminaire · Post #130 » by **Illuminaire** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:48 pm

CCJ, Walls counterpart PER has been good both years. That's far from a perfect stat, but it answers some of your questions.

JJ, you are basically establishing a no-win scenario for Wall... which is why a significant number of us have come to believe you are deeply biased and unwilling to take a balanced view of the situation.

DallasShalDune · Post #131 » by **DallasShalDune** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:06 pm

Illuminaire wrote:CCJ, Walls counterpart PER has been good both years. That's far from a perfect stat, but it answers some of your questions.

JJ, you are basically establishing a no-win scenario for Wall... which is why a significant number of us have come to believe you are deeply biased and unwilling to take a balanced view of the situation.

I'd agree with both of these. Wall has a lot to work on, including not getting torched by small, fast point guards, who have high PERs against us. That is on Wall and our big men's help D.

And he will never please JJ. And JJ will say that is because he will never actually be a good enough player to earn JJ's respect, so any point we bring up is moot.

Illuminaire · Post #132 » by **Illuminaire** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:07 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:If you're going to count assists as a measure of greatness, why not look at the efficiency stats, too? Wall might make up for things with his blocks, steals, and rebounds; but I'm thinking his inability to consistently make shots combined with the tendency of whoever he's supposed to guard making shots would minimize some of Wall's accolades.

I have a like/hate thing with John Wall.

These are fair criticisms. Wall will not be a great player until he scores more efficiently; his turnover % isn't actually that bad, so I don't have as much of a gripe about those.

Wall does get lost sometimes on defense too, and relies too much on his athletic gifts to make up ground. I don't think he's any worse than average defensively though even with those flaws. According to basketball reference, his PG counterparts have an EFG of .424 over the season. If that's a tendency to make shots... they can tend that way all they want.

DallasShalDune · Post #133 » by **DallasShalDune** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:29 pm

NBA.com had a feature on Wall

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/s ... index.html

Aschburner criticizes Wall extensively, but he also tempers his criticism with some situational realism. He recognizes that Wall is a deeply flawed player, but his good games are truly good and he can still meet that potential.

This is the sort of thinking I've been trying to communicate. To compare Wall to McGee is ludicrous. Wall values winning more than McGee, and he is smarter than McGee. McGee had ridiculous games where his athleticism allowed him to dominate opponents, and Wall has had the same games. But McGee never won based of gall and hard work, which Wall has shown occasionally, like last night v. the Bulls.

hands11 · Post #134 » by **hands11** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:06 am

Illuminaire wrote:CCJ, Walls counterpart PER has been good both years. That's far from a perfect stat, but it answers some of your questions.

JJ, you are basically establishing a no-win scenario for Wall... which is why a significant number of us have come to believe you are deeply biased and unwilling to take a balanced view of the situation.

Where do you get counter PERs . I was looking around the other day because I wanted a McGee update.

hands11 · Post #135 » by **hands11** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:09 am

Illuminaire wrote:CCJ, Walls counterpart PER has been good both years. That's far from a perfect stat, but it answers some of your questions.

JJ, you are basically establishing a no-win scenario for Wall... which is why a I have come to believe you are deeply biased and unwilling to take a balanced view of the situation.

Who is this "us" people talk about. Don't you feel like what you write is sound enough on its own without pull the 'us" card.

fixed

Ed Wood · Post #136 » by **Ed Wood** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:11 am

Easiest way is probably 82games, which tends to be a bit behind in terms of keeping its data up to date but is solid for whatever +/- or +/- derivative you have a hankering for.

voila, the tables they have been broken.

edit: also don't get up in arms about what was a thoroughly qualified statement. That JJ's assessment of Wall is overly harsh, and he seems at times to go out of his way to find ways to denigrate Wall is not an unique opinion here. Just chime in with a "no way bro."

hands11 · Post #137 » by **hands11** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:14 am

DallasShalDune wrote:NBA.com had a feature on Wall

http://www.nba.com/2012/news/features/s ... index.html

Aschburner criticizes Wall extensively, but he also tempers his criticism with some situational realism. He recognizes that Wall is a deeply flawed player, but his good games are truly good and he can still meet that potential.

This is the sort of thinking I've been trying to communicate. To compare Wall to McGee is ludicrous. Wall values winning more than McGee, and he is smarter than McGee. McGee had ridiculous games where his athleticism allowed him to dominate opponents, and Wall has had the same games. But McGee never won based of gall and hard work, which Wall has shown occasionally, like last night v. the Bulls.

I think/hope make the 3rd year leap next year. His problems are fixable. And it start with knowing how to do it and what went wrong.

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/4/17 ... rity-games

John Wall Admits He Spent Too Much Time Playing Charity Games Last Year

Wall himself admitted the charity games hurt his development. Speaking to out-of-town reporters after Monday's win over the Chicago Bulls, Wall said that, if he could do it over again, he'd spend more time working out and less time playing in these games.

QUESTION: Did you feel like you were at a disadvantage this year? Nobody had a summer, nobody had much of a training camp, but for a younger player, that would seem to be pretty important.

ANSWER: No ... I didn't think I had a disadvantage. I just think that, instead of working out more, I did more of playing in charity events and summer leagues, when I should have been working out more. That's the only thing I think I should have done differently, but it was a great experience going to different states and venues.

The whole interview is filled with personal reflection on his season and what he and the team needs to do better. It's worth checking out.

Obviously, it's disappointing that Wall didn't supplement his summer-league experience with more gym work, but the good news is that he now knows the effect of that decision. Hopefully, it'll help fuel him to be smarter with his summer work this time around.

hands11 · Post #138 » by **hands11** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:17 am

Ed Wood wrote:Easiest way is probably 82games, which tends to be a bit behind in terms of keeping its data up to date but is solid for whatever +/- or +/- derivative you have a hankering for.

voila, the tables they have been broken.

Thanks Ed.

That is where I landed. I guess I didn't scroll down far enough.

My your camel spit nothing but daisies.

JonathanJoseph · Post #139 » by **JonathanJoseph** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:34 am

jivelikenice wrote:Did he have a good game last night? They won so by your view that should be another good game, right?

JJ, for the record....what would you do with Wall at this point if you were part of the FO?

Not really. It was a better than average performance for him.

I think the FO is stuck. Can't get any sort of value for him in a trade but I'd certainly stop planning the entire franchise around him when it's clear he's not "that guy".

JonathanJoseph · Post #140 » by **JonathanJoseph** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:40 am

Illuminaire wrote:CCJ, Walls counterpart PER has been good both years. That's far from a perfect stat, but it answers some of your questions.

JJ, you are basically establishing a no-win scenario for Wall... which is why a significant number of us have come to believe you are deeply biased and unwilling to take a balanced view of the situation.

I've been quite consistent in calling Wall's statistics fools gold. Wall racks up a lot of points and assists because he's athletic and he forces the action but on the whole it results in a lot of turnovers and bad basketball. How many of those games where Wall goes off for 30 have the Wizards ever won? Probably close to zero. It's a pretty straightforward hypothesis well supported by the statistics.

Also, it's quite possible that I'm the one with the balanced view of the situation and "a significant number of you" are wearing Bullets-red colored glasses. Just sayin...