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Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - 12/13/12)

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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1461 » by payitforward » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:04 pm

Mattya wrote:...you are saying Wall's rookie year wasn't that spectacular either?

...Rubio's hype comes from his defense and how he helped a team win games. Not the typical things that are well seen on stat sheets.

Rubio ...doesn't seem to have greatness in him (from where we're standing) while Wall still has that upside....

Wall's rookie year ...was good. Very good.

No, not really. He produced at about an average level for a 20+ minute-a-game PG. No better. His year-2 WS40 showed an improvement but not a big improvement.

Rubio's rookie WS40 (yes, it's calculated off stat sheet numbers) was significantly better than Wall's rookie WS40 and also better than Wall's year-2 WS40.

Rubio is 5 weeks younger than John Wall -- why exactly doesn't he "seem to have greatness in him," given that he's been better than Wall (and was a year younger as a rookie, btw)?
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1462 » by payitforward » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:09 pm

payitforward wrote:
Mattya wrote:...you are saying Wall's rookie year wasn't that spectacular either?

...Rubio's hype comes from his defense and how he helped a team win games. Not the typical things that are well seen on stat sheets.


Illuminaire wrote:Rubio ...doesn't seem to have greatness in him (from where we're standing) while Wall still has that upside....

Wall's rookie year ...was good. Very good.

No, not really. He produced at about an average level for a 20+ minute-a-game PG. No better. His year-2 WS40 showed an improvement but not a big improvement.

Rubio's rookie WS40 (yes, it's calculated off stat sheet numbers) was significantly better than Wall's rookie WS40 and also better than Wall's year-2 WS40.

Rubio is 5 weeks younger than John Wall -- why exactly doesn't he "seem to have greatness in him," given that he's been better than Wall (and was a year younger as a rookie, btw)?
People say I'm mellowing with age. Nah.

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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1463 » by payitforward » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:11 pm

People say I'm mellowing with age. Nah.

It is still not possible to formulate a counter-argument -- even if I say... Is so!
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1464 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:29 pm

payitforward wrote:Have you seen this...?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wi ... story.html

Aaaargh!!!

Um... there's an entire thread about this. It's up to 6 pages already.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1465 » by Illuminaire » Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:34 pm

I've already shared my thoughts on WS as a measuring tool, PIF. You fall back on it every time... we're just going to have to disagree if that's your go to move, and I don't trust it as an accurate measure.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1466 » by LyricalRico » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:08 pm

A twist on nate's Nene-for-Bledsoe idea that includes Philly's desire for another scorer...

Wizards trade: Nene
Wizards receive: Bledsoe, Odom, and Kwame Brown

Clippers trade: Bledsoe, Odom, and Butler
Clippers receive: Nene, Dorell Wright, and PHI 2nd

Sixers trade: Wright, Brown, and 2nd
Sixers receive: Caron Butler

Maybe then follow that up with this:

Wizards trade: John Wall
Kings trade: Tyreke Evans and a pick

We end up with a young team and a cap that progressively clears over the next 2 seasons. Add a top 3 forward pick in next year's draft and we might have something.

Seraphin/Okafor
Booker/Singleton
Webster/Ariza
Evans/Beal
Bledsoe/Evans

(I'm assuming that Odom and Kwame would be bought out.)
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1467 » by nate33 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:51 pm

After acquiring Bledsoe, I wouldn't necessarily follow by trading Wall. Both Bledsoe and Wall have the size to play SG so there really wouldn't be much problem playing them together.

If I traded Wall for Evans and a pick, that pick damn well better be Sacramento's unprotected 2013 pick.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1468 » by nuposse04 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:53 pm

^Cause yah know, Bledsoe's numbers aren't inflated by actually playing on a competent team. I Understand wanting to dumb Nene, but for all of Wall's issues I don't think Bledsoe, is, or ever will be better then him.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1469 » by Illuminaire » Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:17 pm

If only we had some way of knowing whether Bledsoe and Wall could work together as guards...
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1470 » by LyricalRico » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:02 pm

Illuminaire wrote:If only we had some way of knowing whether Bledsoe and Wall could work together as guards...


:lol:

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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1471 » by Dat2U » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:35 pm

Illuminaire wrote:I've already shared my thoughts on WS as a measuring tool, PIF. You fall back on it every time... we're just going to have to disagree if that's your go to move, and I don't trust it as an accurate measure.


Agreed. Any statistical measure is going to have it flaws. It certainly can't be used as the lone piece to measure someone's value. IMO, you have to take into account a number of different statistical tools to get an overall picture of a players real impact.

Being solely dependent on one measuring tool and being so vociferous in your arguments to such is how one can wind up looking incredibly wrong and stupid in the long run.

Anyone knows how Landry Fields is doing up in Toronto these days?
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1472 » by dangermouse » Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:57 am

fishercob mentioned in the Harden thread about trading for Gay.

I just wanted to say, no way. It would (probably) take us giving up our first. Right now we are playing on track to draft Shabazz, who I think could be as good as Gay, and with a much cooler name.
pineappleheadindc wrote:Q: What is Nene girlfriend's name?

A: Noah.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1473 » by montestewart » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:02 am

Illuminaire wrote:I've already shared my thoughts on WS as a measuring tool, PIF. You fall back on it every time... we're just going to have to disagree if that's your go to move, and I don't trust it as an accurate measure.

I like the WS measure, but I agree with your premise. Like other measures, WS can slight some and over-reward others that happen to be overly strong or weak in a key area of the system. Still, you could legitimately arrive at the same conclusion about Wall using other means, including just looking at his shooting % from the 2 and 3 and his turnovers, especially coupled with the team's record. I still think Wall has the tools to be an all-star (maybe they could try surrounding him with some scorers), but right now I'd be happy to see him return healthy, and just work on being really good.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1474 » by Benjammin » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:33 am

dangermouse wrote:fishercob mentioned in the Harden thread about trading for Gay.

I just wanted to say, no way. It would (probably) take us giving up our first. Right now we are playing on track to draft Shabazz, who I think could be as good as Gay, and with a much cooler name.


I believe he was saying that would be a typical Wizards/Boulez short-term move that looks good on paper. It was by no means a good thing in his mind, I believe.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1475 » by dangermouse » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:02 am

Yeah I kinda got that, just wanted to bring it over to this thread so I could formalise what I would think of said trade.
pineappleheadindc wrote:Q: What is Nene girlfriend's name?

A: Noah.
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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present) 

Post#1476 » by Nivek » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:42 pm

To the Rubio vs. Wall thing for a moment. Using MY stat tool, which (despite dat's unsubstantiated claim to the contrary) is without flaw, I'd agree with payitforward's basic assessment. In my measure, 100 = average and higher is better...

Rubio -- Rookie -- 104
Wall -- Rookie -- 87
Wall -- Year 2 -- 97

It's actually interesting to see how remarkably similar their rookie seasons were category by category. Wall actually shot for a higher percentage from the floor. Their rebounding was virtually identical. Rubio had more assists and steals. Turnovers were about the same.

Wall shot more frequently so he had more missed shots. Another factor, at least in my rating, Rubio performed better in the defense part of my metric.
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