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Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:32 am
by GhostsOfGil
I always viewed Monroe as a Mcgee type player in the sense that his poor defense outweigh his offensive production. He has the 2nd worst on/off in detroit at -10.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:18 am
by Mattya
Illuminaire wrote:I repeat: Khan is craaaaazy.
I'd also suggest that Minnesota could trade Rubio while receiving Wall. For all the hype, Rubio's production wasn't really that spectacular. Wall and Ricky's rookie years are very comparable, with a slight edge to Wall overall (imo).
So in essence you are saying Wall's rookie year wasn't that spectacular either?
Seriously though. Rubio's hype comes from his defense and how he helped a team win games. Not the typical things that are well seen on stat sheets.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:02 pm
by Illuminaire
Mattya wrote:Illuminaire wrote:I repeat: Khan is craaaaazy.
I'd also suggest that Minnesota could trade Rubio while receiving Wall. For all the hype, Rubio's production wasn't really that spectacular. Wall and Ricky's rookie years are very comparable, with a slight edge to Wall overall (imo).
So in essence you are saying Wall's rookie year wasn't that spectacular either?
Seriously though. Rubio's hype comes from his defense and how he helped a team win games. Not the typical things that are well seen on stat sheets.
I am - if Wall's rookie year had been truly spectacular, then we wouldn't be entertaining the possibility of trading him. He was good. Very good. But he was an inefficient scorer... as was Rubio. Aside from defense (which Wall is actually pretty good at himself, most nights), what mysterious qualities does the Spanish Boy Wonder bring to the table that can't be seen on paper?
Regardless, we're just shooting out various trade ideas. Rubio is a good player, but he doesn't seem to have greatness in him (from where we're standing) while Wall still has that upside, and Love has already reached that point. That's the basis of a trade for all parties, but it really comes down to Khan slightly undervaluing Love and slightly overvaluing his ability to make more trades.
Probably not terribly realistic, but also not entirely impossible. *shrug*
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:07 pm
by spaceman_E
nate33 wrote:Nivek wrote:Okafor and Wall for Love and Roy?
I don't see Minnesota being particularly interested in Wall with Rubio already on the roster. It would have to involve a 3rd team.
Washington trades: Wall for Love
Other Team trades: Good Player for Wall
Minnesota trades: Love for Good Player
Which teams are a fit? I can see Hawks, Jazz, Lakers, Kings, and maybe Hornets as teams with the need and talent to send to Minn. We would have to add more though as most teams would just try to snag Love instead of Wall.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:50 pm
by payitforward
Illuminaire wrote:Khan is crazy like that though. He drafted Flynn, Rubio, AND Ty Lawson remember. He'll wheel and deal all day if they let him off his meds.
He *didn't* draft Ty Lawson -- the best of that bunch by far! He traded the pick to Denver (possibly the deal was formally structured in a way where he made the pick for them...?).
When we made the idiotic trade w/ him that same draft, I knew Ty Lawson was likely to be the best PG coming out and likely to be one of the top in the league for that matter (college numbers told me so). I was furious that our idiotic GM didn't manage to acquire that pick in the deal when it was obvious that Kahn was excited about Rubio and wouldn't give the later pick (#18, if I remember right) much value -- and that Lawson was pretty certain to be available at the spot.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:04 pm
by payitforward
Mattya wrote:...you are saying Wall's rookie year wasn't that spectacular either?
...Rubio's hype comes from his defense and how he helped a team win games. Not the typical things that are well seen on stat sheets.
Rubio ...doesn't seem to have greatness in him (from where we're standing) while Wall still has that upside....
Wall's rookie year ...was good. Very good.
No, not really. He produced at about an average level for a 20+ minute-a-game PG. No better. His year-2 WS40 showed an improvement but not a big improvement.
Rubio's rookie WS40 (yes, it's calculated off stat sheet numbers) was significantly better than Wall's rookie WS40 and also better than Wall's year-2 WS40.
Rubio is 5 weeks younger than John Wall -- why exactly doesn't he "seem to have greatness in him," given that he's been better than Wall (and was a year younger as a rookie, btw)?
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:09 pm
by payitforward
payitforward wrote:Mattya wrote:...you are saying Wall's rookie year wasn't that spectacular either?
...Rubio's hype comes from his defense and how he helped a team win games. Not the typical things that are well seen on stat sheets.
Illuminaire wrote:Rubio ...doesn't seem to have greatness in him (from where we're standing) while Wall still has that upside....
Wall's rookie year ...was good. Very good.
No, not really. He produced at about an average level for a 20+ minute-a-game PG. No better. His year-2 WS40 showed an improvement but not a big improvement.
Rubio's rookie WS40 (yes, it's calculated off stat sheet numbers) was significantly better than Wall's rookie WS40 and also better than Wall's year-2 WS40.
Rubio is 5 weeks younger than John Wall -- why exactly doesn't he "seem to have greatness in him," given that he's been better than Wall (and was a year younger as a rookie, btw)?
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:11 pm
by payitforward
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:29 pm
by nate33
Um... there's an entire thread about this. It's up to 6 pages already.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:34 pm
by Illuminaire
I've already shared my thoughts on WS as a measuring tool, PIF. You fall back on it every time... we're just going to have to disagree if that's your go to move, and I don't trust it as an accurate measure.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:08 pm
by LyricalRico
A twist on nate's Nene-for-Bledsoe idea that includes Philly's desire for another scorer...
Wizards trade: Nene
Wizards receive: Bledsoe, Odom, and Kwame Brown
Clippers trade: Bledsoe, Odom, and Butler
Clippers receive: Nene, Dorell Wright, and PHI 2nd
Sixers trade: Wright, Brown, and 2nd
Sixers receive: Caron Butler
Maybe then follow that up with this:
Wizards trade: John Wall
Kings trade: Tyreke Evans and a pick
We end up with a young team and a cap that progressively clears over the next 2 seasons. Add a top 3 forward pick in next year's draft and we might have something.
Seraphin/Okafor
Booker/Singleton
Webster/Ariza
Evans/Beal
Bledsoe/Evans
(I'm assuming that Odom and Kwame would be bought out.)
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:51 pm
by nate33
After acquiring Bledsoe, I wouldn't necessarily follow by trading Wall. Both Bledsoe and Wall have the size to play SG so there really wouldn't be much problem playing them together.
If I traded Wall for Evans and a pick, that pick damn well better be Sacramento's unprotected 2013 pick.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:53 pm
by nuposse04
^Cause yah know, Bledsoe's numbers aren't inflated by actually playing on a competent team. I Understand wanting to dumb Nene, but for all of Wall's issues I don't think Bledsoe, is, or ever will be better then him.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:17 pm
by Illuminaire
If only we had some way of knowing whether Bledsoe and Wall could work together as guards...
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:02 pm
by LyricalRico
Illuminaire wrote:If only we had some way of knowing whether Bledsoe and Wall could work together as guards...
Touche
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:35 pm
by Dat2U
Illuminaire wrote:I've already shared my thoughts on WS as a measuring tool, PIF. You fall back on it every time... we're just going to have to disagree if that's your go to move, and I don't trust it as an accurate measure.
Agreed. Any statistical measure is going to have it flaws. It certainly can't be used as the lone piece to measure someone's value. IMO, you have to take into account a number of different statistical tools to get an overall picture of a players real impact.
Being solely dependent on one measuring tool and being so vociferous in your arguments to such is how one can wind up looking incredibly wrong and stupid in the long run.
Anyone knows how Landry Fields is doing up in Toronto these days?
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:57 am
by dangermouse
fishercob mentioned in the Harden thread about trading for Gay.
I just wanted to say, no way. It would (probably) take us giving up our first. Right now we are playing on track to draft Shabazz, who I think could be as good as Gay, and with a much cooler name.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:02 am
by montestewart
Illuminaire wrote:I've already shared my thoughts on WS as a measuring tool, PIF. You fall back on it every time... we're just going to have to disagree if that's your go to move, and I don't trust it as an accurate measure.
I like the WS measure, but I agree with your premise. Like other measures, WS can slight some and over-reward others that happen to be overly strong or weak in a key area of the system. Still, you could legitimately arrive at the same conclusion about Wall using other means, including just looking at his shooting % from the 2 and 3 and his turnovers, especially coupled with the team's record. I still think Wall has the tools to be an all-star (maybe they could try surrounding him with some scorers), but right now I'd be happy to see him return healthy, and just work on being really good.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:33 am
by Benjammin
dangermouse wrote:fishercob mentioned in the Harden thread about trading for Gay.
I just wanted to say, no way. It would (probably) take us giving up our first. Right now we are playing on track to draft Shabazz, who I think could be as good as Gay, and with a much cooler name.
I believe he was saying that would be a typical Wizards/Boulez short-term move that looks good on paper. It was by no means a good thing in his mind, I believe.
Re: Official Trade Thread XX (6/22/12 - present)
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:02 am
by dangermouse
Yeah I kinda got that, just wanted to bring it over to this thread so I could formalise what I would think of said trade.