Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 2

[Nivek]

CCJ: I don't think that's fair. Different situations, different guys. Harden decided he wanted to be The Man and he wanted to be paid full value. I can't fault him for that. And I can't fault his former teammates for not persuading him otherwise. To be honest, if I'd been in Harden's situation, I almost certainly would have taken the money.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think it goes beyond that, Nivek. The Spurs already had a history of treating their players right, allowing David Robinson to buy a small portion of the team upon retirement and keeping him around for as long as he wanted to play. They were in the process of doing something similar with Tim Duncan when Parker signed. They haven't been in the tax much but they did dip there briefly to keep their core together, too, and they have a long time coach that players like and trust who clearly has the ear of management and the team doesn't have any history of turning around and trading their stars on cheap contracts and who generally treated all their players equally relative their talents.

In Harden's case, he plays for a team that just switched cities and changed ownership to an owner who is known for his lavish lifestyle on his investors' dime. They were clearly treating him differently than their other stars having paid Durant and Westbrook and refusing to even give Harden the lesser amount they could offer having already given 2 5-year extensions. They were refusing to dip into the tax or absorb a 1-time financial hit by amnestying Perkins in order to keep their team together and they wouldn't even give him a trade kicker to give him some sort of assurance that they wouldn't turn around and trade him as soon as they could on a cheaper contract, or if they did, he'd at least not be stuck giving the home team discount to the team that just traded for him.

Not that the Thunder necessarily made the wrong move here but they aren't operating on the same smooth level San Antonio is as a franchise; they are operating similarly and have younger stars because they hit the top of the draft more recently but beyond their shrewd GM moves and drafting, the similarities stop pretty quickly. Even if it was just the money it would be tough to fault Harden for making that choice. I think things go a little further than that. And with his defection, I'm not at all sure whether Houston or OKC will be the better team in 3 or 4 years.

[Nivek]

I understand all that, and I do think the Thunder chose the wrong guy when they gave max money to Westbrook. They should have saved it for Harden. Perhaps they think replacing a SG is easier than replacing a PG.

My point still stands: It's a business deal and both sides get to make their choices. Harden decided he wanted money and minutes. OKC decided to prioritize other players over him. Like I said, I think OKC had their priorities wrong -- in my book, it would have been Durant, Harden and Ibaka. And yes, they should have amnestied Perkins if it meant they could keep Harden around.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Yeah, I think they got their hands tied because Westbrook was there first. Frankly, having to choose between Harden and Westbrook is a 'problem' every team would love to have. I personally think Ibaka and Perkins should have been the guys on the outs. Westbrook, Harden and Durant are enough talent that they can simply overwhelm most teams and most of the truly elite teams aren't ones that you are going to gain a significant advantage over by sacrificing offense for defense. Against the Heat, in particular, Ibaka and Perkins are much less uesful so who really cares if their team is more successful against the Cavaliers since they'd have smoked them either way.

The C position is actually something I'm a little interested in watching with the Thunder over the years. San Antonio used to put a pretty huge piority into it, and at least with them they had to go up against Shaq all the time (even with Dwight, Shaq was just a different type of opponent) but they eventually settled on playing less orthodox lineups than they initially started with. The Heat have clearly embraced the different styles of lineups. The Thunder are much more traditional in that sense.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I understand all that, and I do think the Thunder chose the wrong guy when they gave max money to Westbrook. They should have saved it for Harden. Perhaps they think replacing a SG is easier than replacing a PG.

My point still stands: It's a business deal and both sides get to make their choices. Harden decided he wanted money and minutes. OKC decided to prioritize other players over him. Like I said, I think OKC had their priorities wrong -- in my book, it would have been Durant, Harden and Ibaka. And yes, they should have amnestied Perkins if it meant they could keep Harden around.

I don't blame Harden. I would have made the same decision, to go where someone thought I was worth more. The NBA is a business and I definitely would have taken the money to go.

I brought up the Spurs with the idea the Timmy is a franchise big who had won championships. Harden might have felt he had a better chance to beat the Heat with a Duncan as a teammate I could be wrong, but the teams that have a winning culture get players to buy in.

Nivek, getting more minutes, shots, AND money make Harden's decision much less controversial. I can't see why anyone is mad at him.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Here is how Harden felt about his choice:

James Harden disappointed Thunder didn't give him more time to consider offer

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--james ... 61809.html

HOUSTON – Even with the rapid embrace of life as the franchise player for the Houston Rockets, something still troubles All-Star guard James Harden about the way his departure unfolded with the Oklahoma City Thunder: Why didn't officials give him longer than an hour to consider a final four-year, $54 million offer before trading him?

"After everything we established – everything we had done – you give me an hour?" Harden told Yahoo! Sports on Monday afternoon. "This was one of the biggest decisions of my life. I wanted to go home and pray about it. It hurt me. It hurt."

Asked if additional time might have caused him to accept a deal several million dollars short of the $60 million maximum contract Harden had long sought, he responded: "Who knows? Another day, who knows what another day would've done?"

n the way out of Oklahoma City, Harden has been naturally aware of the public debate his contract talks and eventual trade inspired.

"I heard a lot of those things," Harden said. "I heard that I was greedy; that I didn't care about winning; heard the questioning of my loyalty. And I'm thinking: 'Of course I want to win. I've been winning my entire life.'

"Everybody has their own opinion about me [as a role player and focus of a team]. I can do both: I'm versatile. Growing up in college, in high school, I was the focal point. I was the leader. I was the go-to guy. I was the third overall pick. I took a back seat and did whatever it took for the team to win. Some nights I scored, some nights I passed. Whatever was needed to win.

"Now, I'm back to my old ways: Needing to be the leader, needing to score. In any situation, I'm going to be good."

[tontoz]

An hour? Wow

[montestewart]

An hour? Wow

Maybe they suddenly had an offer on the table, but if they were willing to go that high, why would they wait until then to tell him? I wonder what the previous high offer was?

[Upper Decker]

The 'one hour approach' by Presti seems too shrewd for his own good. How can you play the 'we're in it together', 'take one for the team', 'sacrifice for the good of the organization' card when your negotiation tactic is to give a low-ball offer, with no-trade kicker, and say 'one-hour, take it or leave it'? I'd tell OKC to kiss off too.

I think for Harden the minutes weren't the issue. I think recognition was. I'd hate being the 3rd banana on a team only pimping Westbrook and Durant. Harden sacrificed so much for the Thunder. He gets bypassed for all-star nods, and potential All-NBA recognition. I suspect Harden considers himself just as good as Westbrook. How would you feel if you were just as good as a co-worker, but the other person gets paid more, receives more recognition, and gets more/better projects? Not only that, but your company tries to pull the hard line with you. Screw that!

[tontoz]

The 'one hour approach' by Presti seems too shrewd for his own good. How can you play the 'we're in it together', 'take one for the team', 'sacrifice for the good of the organization' card when your negotiation tactic is to give a low-ball offer, with no-trade kicker, and say 'one-hour, take it or leave it'? I'd tell OKC to kiss off too.

I think for Harden the minutes weren't the issue. I think recognition was. I'd hate being the 3rd banana on a team only pimping Westbrook and Durant. Harden sacrificed so much for the Thunder. He gets bypassed for all-star nods, and potential All-NBA recognition. I suspect Harden considers himself just as good as Westbrook. How would you feel if you were just as good as a co-worker, but the other person gets paid more, receives more recognition, and gets more/better projects? Not only that, but your company tries to pull the hard line with you. Screw that!

Yeah i can certainly see how Harden would feel slighted by this. Harden definitely sacrificed for the benefit of the team but when it came time to get paid.....

[FAH1223]

can't hate Harden at all for taking his time and then re-evaluating the offer. Most of us would have done the same

[verbal8]

The 'one hour approach' by Presti seems too shrewd for his own good. How can you play the 'we're in it together', 'take one for the team', 'sacrifice for the good of the organization' card when your negotiation tactic is to give a low-ball offer, with no-trade kicker, and say 'one-hour, take it or leave it'? I'd tell OKC to kiss off too.

I think for Harden the minutes weren't the issue. I think recognition was. I'd hate being the 3rd banana on a team only pimping Westbrook and Durant. Harden sacrificed so much for the Thunder. He gets bypassed for all-star nods, and potential All-NBA recognition. I suspect Harden considers himself just as good as Westbrook. How would you feel if you were just as good as a co-worker, but the other person gets paid more, receives more recognition, and gets more/better projects? Not only that, but your company tries to pull the hard line with you. Screw that!

Yeah i can certainly see how Harden would feel slighted by this. Harden definitely sacrificed for the benefit of the team but when it came time to get paid.....

I think Harden's offer of basically a 15% hometown discount with a trade kicker to make up the difference was pretty fair.

I think the Thunder did ok with the return on dealing Harden, but it is basically impossible to get equal value.

[closg00]

Mike Brown has been fired according to ESPN

[Soup's Uncle]

Wow. After 5 games.What happes if Wittman goes 0-10?

[MF23]

About time. He seems like a nice guy but he can't coach. It's not fair to the fans, players and GM when the owners son hires the coach.

[verbal8]

Mike Brown has been fired according to ESPN

I think Sloan would be the best replacement.

Apparently D'Antoni is rumored to be a candidate.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/22 ... Lakers_Job

[Nivek]

Wow. After 5 games.What happes if Wittman goes 0-10?

He'll probably get an extension.

[closg00]

Sending for EFJ was the kiss of death.

[mhd]

I'm thinking Phil coms back. Why else cancel a speaking gig:

http://www.fa-mag.com/fa-news/12863-ala ... pact-.html

[Nivek]

What exactly was Mike Brown doing with his coaching staff? It's like he was trying to create a Wizards-West coaching staff. His assistants included: Eddie Jordan, Bernie Bickerstaff, and Darvin Ham.