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Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Part II

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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#21 » by LyricalRico » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:15 pm

At his introductory news conference last month, Okafor said teaming with Nene was the most intriguing aspect of the deal. “When I first heard that I got traded here, the first thing I thought was, me and Nene are playing along side each other. He’s been a difficult guard for me and I’m looking forward to battling against him in practice and getting better in the games. I like it. I like playing that style of basketball. I think, I just like it. I like the idea of having two warriors out there at the same time, just battling. Similar mindsets, I think we can complement each other pretty well.”


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wiz ... _blog.html

I'm looking forward to it, too!

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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#22 » by Dat2U » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:00 pm

hands11 wrote:
CJJ. Go for a good run. You are overly complaining about things you don't know and you are all over the place. Chill brother. Wait and see how things work out. No reason to see the glass half full. Life is to short for that.

Hope for the best. If the worst comes, you can deal with it when it happens. Nothing is to be gained by living through it longer then needed or to live through it if it never happens.


Dude you seriously need to get a grip. What in hell do you think a message board is for? I think your in the wrong place for the type of discussion you like. You need a fan board where you can support your team and offer feel good commentary without any real opinion or angst. That's not here. That never was here. And your not going to change that. I'm sure places like the Post or Washingtonwizards.com or even Bulletsforever might serve you better.

It just irritates the f*ck out me when someone questions why I challenge or complain about the team I support. It's my God given right too. And if you don't like it, you can kick rocks.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#23 » by fugop » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:42 pm

With the roster changes the Wizards made in the last calendar year, I think we may have gone from having the tallest starting lineup in the league to one of the shortest. We might also have one of the heaviest lineups.

Wall 6'4"
Young 6'7"
Lewis 6'10"
Blatche 7'0"
McGee 7'0"

Wall 6'4"
Crawford 6'5" / Beal 6'5"
Ariza 6'8"
Nene 6'10"
Okafor 6'10"
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#24 » by tontoz » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:33 pm

Ariza sucks.

Just thought i'd mention it.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#25 » by The Consiglieri » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:37 pm

Particularly considering how reasonable CCJ was being in that take. How does this sound? The trade was idiotic, and everybody with a brain in the league was laughing their heads off that we got taken so badly. Could we get some utility out of it? Sure. Will it be anywhere near what we should have gotten for taking on such onerous contracts, absolutely not. Should we have just sat on our hands rather than made such an incomprehensibly stupid deal out of spite at the idea of buying someone out, a strategy that was better for the team, and the fans, but not Ted's wallet, or his fiscal philosophy? Absolutely.

Anyone and everyone should complain when the team does a monstrously stupid things for reasons that have nothing to do with improving the basketball team, and everything to do with an owners fiscal beliefs, and a GM's self interest (who cares if it hurts the team long term if it can result in a minor uptick in wins to save my own incompetent arse).

All you need to look at is who hated it to no it was idiotic. There are a few exceptions here and there, but virtually every analyst worth his salt thought it was idiotic. That isn't why I hate it, but I'll also add that the short term gains (if they even happen, which Im skeptical of) don't remotely warrant the long term and short term costs.

I understand why some will simply like it because it brings us two bodies that are decent, and borderline competent, and that is true, but that doesnt take away from the fact that we were taken to the cleaners in the deal (as another BOYD deal revealed just a few days later), and that the trade could actually hurt our real and genuine interests rather than help them (developing the youth).



Nothing can be done at this point of course, we're stuck with this deal, and its crummy after effects, we'll just have to wait and see if its a net negative, or a neutral impact, or shockingly actually helps us considerably. Time will tell. It just won't change the fact that for what we did for New Orleans, we got taken to the cleaners, and that we were and are run by a pair of clueless stooges.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#26 » by fishercob » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:38 pm

I work in retail real estate. I was on tour with a client yesterday and asked him how much of a sales bump a certain retailer gets from having a drive-thru. His response was that there is no way to tell. He can tell what the drive-thru stores do in volume vs. what the non-drive-thru stores do in volume, but there are so many other factors that go into the performance of a store (location, access, visibility, parking, competition, market, etc), that is impossible to say "this store will do X volume with a drive-thru and Y volume without."

This trade, this season, and the Wizards in general will go as John Wall goes. If Wall makes The Leap, plays like and becomes an all-star (his chances are improved with Rose hurt and Lin in Houston, Nash staying West, Kyrie's hand, etc), proponents of this trade (including the front office and the Blogger in CHief) will say "SEE, we're doing so well! The trade worked!" And if Wall struggles, the WIzards will too -- without a doubt. And then the trade opponents will scream from the highest rooftops about how right they were about what a massive opportunity cost this deal carried and that Ernie should be executed at the corner of 7th and H.

This trade is a drive thru. It's difficult to measure the incremental benefit. But at the end of the day, retailers don't care about how the drive thru performs. They just care about how their stores do.

Anderson or Ilyasova or Lou Williams or whomever wouldn't have made a lick of difference here if Wall fails to become a star. And if Wall does become a star, OkaRiza isn't going to hold our team back.

So everyone just relax. For once.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#27 » by verbal8 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:38 pm

fishercob wrote:This trade, this season, and the Wizards in general will go as John Wall goes. If Wall makes The Leap, plays like and becomes an all-star (his chances are improved with Rose hurt and Lin in Houston, Nash staying West, Kyrie's hand, etc), proponents of this trade (including the front office and the Blogger in CHief) will say "SEE, we're doing so well! The trade worked!" And if Wall struggles, the WIzards will too -- without a doubt. And then the trade opponents will scream from the highest rooftops about how right they were about what a massive opportunity cost this deal carried and that Ernie should be executed at the corner of 7th and H.

This trade is a drive thru. It's difficult to measure the incremental benefit. But at the end of the day, retailers don't care about how the drive thru performs. They just care about how their stores do.

If Wall doesn't make the leap, I think this team gets blown up in 2 years. If Beal is great and Wall is not, then maybe the rebuild centers around him.

I think Wall will make the leap in the next couple years. He will basically be 24 after 2 more seasons and have played around 10K NBA minutes. True there are examples of late bloomers who put things together later on, but very rarely have they played 10,000 minutes at that point.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#28 » by montestewart » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Fish, for me, there's no conflict between complaining and relaxing. Bitching helps me relax. Next time they go to that drive-in window, they need to super-size it.

I remember you said you did the Loeb's relocation. You do a lot in DC, or all over DMV?
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#29 » by fishercob » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:39 pm

All over.

And point taken about complaining, monte. I find the wave of complaining tiresome, but that's my problem, not yours.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#30 » by dobrojim » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:01 pm

maybe this isn't completely relevant to the trade but I have some hopes
after the SL (which we all agree shouldn't be relied upon too heavily)
that CSing will be closer to an average or maybe only slightly below
average rotation SF.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#31 » by leswizards » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:13 pm

fugop wrote:With the roster changes the Wizards made in the last calendar year, I think we may have gone from having the tallest starting lineup in the league to one of the shortest. We might also have one of the heaviest lineups.

Wall 6'4"
Young 6'7"
Lewis 6'10"
Blatche 7'0"
McGee 7'0"

Wall 6'4"
Crawford 6'5" / Beal 6'5"
Ariza 6'8"
Nene 6'10"
Okafor 6'10"


Nene has always played his best basketball as a Center. If this trade results in him moving to PF, it is going to be even worse than I imagined.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#32 » by The Consiglieri » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:19 pm

fishercob wrote:I work in retail real estate. I was on tour with a client yesterday and asked him how much of a sales bump a certain retailer gets from having a drive-thru. His response was that there is no way to tell. He can tell what the drive-thru stores do in volume vs. what the non-drive-thru stores do in volume, but there are so many other factors that go into the performance of a store (location, access, visibility, parking, competition, market, etc), that is impossible to say "this store will do X volume with a drive-thru and Y volume without."

This trade, this season, and the Wizards in general will go as John Wall goes. If Wall makes The Leap, plays like and becomes an all-star (his chances are improved with Rose hurt and Lin in Houston, Nash staying West, Kyrie's hand, etc), proponents of this trade (including the front office and the Blogger in CHief) will say "SEE, we're doing so well! The trade worked!" And if Wall struggles, the WIzards will too -- without a doubt. And then the trade opponents will scream from the highest rooftops about how right they were about what a massive opportunity cost this deal carried and that Ernie should be executed at the corner of 7th and H.

This trade is a drive thru. It's difficult to measure the incremental benefit. But at the end of the day, retailers don't care about how the drive thru performs. They just care about how their stores do.

Anderson or Ilyasova or Lou Williams or whomever wouldn't have made a lick of difference here if Wall fails to become a star. And if Wall does become a star, OkaRiza isn't going to hold our team back.

So everyone just relax. For once.


I don't really disagree with you about much of anything here, the two areas I'd quibble with regard why some take issue with the trade, and the importance of Wall. I'd agree that this rebuild hinges mostly on Wall. It does, he and Beal are the the foundation pieces of this rebuild. They are virtually certain to be the best assets we acquired during this rebuilt iteration because we flushed our assets in the '09 draft, and were hosed in the '11 lottery. As a result, we will only get half of the rebuild pieces we should have had ((it is very interesting to imagine what might have happened if we'd not been hosed in '09 and had landed Harden/Rubio or Curry instead of trading away our pick for nothing and not been hosed in '11 and had our pick of Williams, Kantner, Irving or Valunciunas), and will rise or fall based on those two foundation pieces, and how well our complimentary pieces turn out.

This trade really distorts our ability to develop the complimentary pieces. We needed Seraphin, Vesely, Booker and Singleton to s or get off the pot in ’12-’13 and perhaps the front half of ’13-’14 allowing us to figure out who to keep and who to move going forward out of those four guys and to a lesser extent Crawford. Instead, we’ve now thrown serious minutes Okafor and Ariza’s way that will play no role in the rise or fall of this rebuild other than to occupy space, and harm the developmental curve of our complimentary players. Are they really going to have any impact on our long term development? Really? How exactly. Both will be gone before we’re any good, or not, and will only be here cluttering up space while we try to build an identity and chemistry. This rebuild if successful or moderately successful will largely play out as such beginning in ’13-’14, and at that point, these contracts will have already been moved, or will be wasting space for one more season.

For me, the trade was infurating precisely because it disrupted the rebuild, and was a massive waste of resources for no assets that will actually contribute to whether or not this rebuild was or is going to be successful. We didn’t need to do this, and in doing this, we got the least possible helpful return in terms of assets. Onerous contracts with players that aren’t better than anyone on our roster (Okafor), or aren’t quality starting material (Ariza).

We could have and should have played this the same way all BOYD deals are done, for future assets and or players with potential long term to help. Instead we got a lot of chaff instead of wheat, and it will waste space going forward, and clog up the wheels of the rebuild. I am not bitter about free agent dreams sacrificed, I thought it was unlikely we landed a primo FA until we played like a team that could attract said assets, what has left me unhinged is a trade that was made for the wrong reasons, and one in which we played the gullible rubes, and that we’ve hurt the rebuild by doing so.

I understand why some want the complainers to stop, or want to be constructive about this, but I can’t be constructive about a deal that was mindnumbingly stupid in my eyes other than in my dissection of how it was wrong, and the few slight positives that will most likely result from it which pale in comparison to negatives (a team better able to weather potential injuries, a bit of a stronger veteran identity and professionalism, maybe an extra win or three in the short term, particularly if there are injuries).

Yes, its true, that this trade won’t define whether the rebuild works, or not, that will depend in the end on Wall and Beal, but you’re wrong from the stand point that this deal could have a very negative impact on the relative quality of the rebuild when it comes to the complimentary players that always play a role as the spine of any rebuild, and Seraphin’s, Bookers, Vesely’s, and Singleton’s minutes are all key assets that shouldn’t have been wasted this way and it could hurt us badly, that this was done. Not as much as Wall busting of course, but just because something isn’t as important as Wall or Beal doesn’t negate its importance, and getting quality minutes and development for our second tier players is profoundly important if this rebuild is to go anywhere long term.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#33 » by fishercob » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:37 pm

I am not that concerned that OkaRiza will harm the development of Seraphin, Vesely, Booker and Singleton. Those guys will need to earn their minutes; that may be as good or better for their development than being thrown into the fire or handed PT by default. That said, you may be right and the deal may have unintended consequences. We'll find out.

To be clear, I'm not defending the trade. I think I'd have preferred us trading Shard for Gordon, Villanueva and the protected 1st Detroit sent to Charlotte. I can certainly see the case for just cutting Lewis, amnestying Blatche and either sitting it out or trying to play in free agency.

My point remains that everything hinges on Wall, and hopefully Beal thereafter. IF Wall and Beal become the dynamic duo that we all hope, players will want to come here to play with them. We may be two years or less from Lamarcus Aldridge walking into Paul Allen's office and saying "trade me to Washington."
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#34 » by Nivek » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:47 pm

I agree with most of what Mr. Hagen writes ^^^. What also bugs me about it is Ted's much-ballyhooed "plan," which has been run through the shredder while Ted/Ernie keep saying they're sticking to it. bull.

When I see other teams making moves the Wizards could have made -- moves that would have the team on a better path toward being truly competitive for several years to come -- it bugs me.

I don't want to be one of those "told ya so" posters, so I'm probably going to stop talking about the trade for awhile.

But, I feel like I'm watching a poker game where the player has just made the wrong bet. It still might turn out okay, and because I like the player (team), I'm going to be rooting for it to turn out okay. But it won't be because the player/team made a good decision. It won't be because they had a good process. It'll be because they got lucky.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#35 » by montestewart » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:43 pm

fishercob wrote:All over.

And point taken about complaining, monte. I find the wave of complaining tiresome, but that's my problem, not yours.

I agree about some of the complaining, because it's a little scattershot, but a well written critique by Nivek, Dat2U, nate33, etc. (including you, on those days when you're feeling a little cranky) can add clarity to my own confused misgivings.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#36 » by fishercob » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:55 pm

Nivek wrote:But, I feel like I'm watching a poker game where the player has just made the wrong bet. It still might turn out okay, and because I like the player (team), I'm going to be rooting for it to turn out okay. But it won't be because the player/team made a good decision. It won't be because they had a good process. It'll be because they got lucky.


Yes.

We all want to validate ourselves and how smart we are by teams doing what we think they should do and then those things turning out well. But that thinking has the potential to distorts fandom, and more than just a tad.

I doubt Bulls fans are any less satisfied with their team because they lucked into Rose -- or the SPurs and Duncan for that matter. And I doubt Rockets fans give a hoot that Morey is a master of game theory; they just want to be able to root for a good team.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#37 » by fishercob » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:02 pm

montestewart wrote:
fishercob wrote:All over.

And point taken about complaining, monte. I find the wave of complaining tiresome, but that's my problem, not yours.

I agree about some of the complaining, because it's a little scattershot, but a well written critique by Nivek, Dat2U, nate33, etc. (including you, on those days when you're feeling a little cranky) can add clarity to my own confused misgivings.


No doubt. I like criticism and critical thinking. I celebrate it. It's important. It leads to better ideas and outcomes.

SPeaking personally, I'm fatigued by the general tenor of things in these parts. Every thread seems to quickly degenerate into "our management sucks." To which I say, "Yeah. And?"
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#38 » by DCZards » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:03 pm

I don’t agree that the Okafor/Ariza trade negatively affects the Zards rebuild. You can win games, make the playoffs as a 6-8 seed, give Wall and the other young players the positive and encouraging experience of winning games and making the playoffs....and rebuild at the same time.

Personally, I prefer that approach to that of continuing to lose games (and being out of the playoffs) while we develop youngin’s like Ves, Seraphin, Wall, Beal, etc.…or wait for the perfect storm of draft picks, free agent pick ups and trades that will result in the Zards going directly from a 20-30 win team to a title contender.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#39 » by Nivek » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:03 pm

fishercob wrote:
Nivek wrote:But, I feel like I'm watching a poker game where the player has just made the wrong bet. It still might turn out okay, and because I like the player (team), I'm going to be rooting for it to turn out okay. But it won't be because the player/team made a good decision. It won't be because they had a good process. It'll be because they got lucky.


Yes.

We all want to validate ourselves and how smart we are by teams doing what we think they should do and then those things turning out well. But that thinking has the potential to distorts fandom, and more than just a tad.

I doubt Bulls fans are any less satisfied with their team because they lucked into Rose -- or the SPurs and Duncan for that matter. And I doubt Rockets fans give a hoot that Morey is a master of game theory; they just want to be able to root for a good team.


Here's where I give a hoot about things like process and making the right decisions for the right reasons: if it's just luck, it's unlikely to be replicated. Having a good assessment and decision-making process increases the odds of success and increases the odds that success can be replicated. Yes, it's possible to have a bad result from a good process and vice versa, but over the long haul, the right process gives better chances for success.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#40 » by fishercob » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:18 pm

No doubt. We have zero players on our roster that we drafted and subsequently extended. Nor do we have any free agents that identified elsewhere and signed. So there is no reason to believe, at this point, that the process here is any good.

San Antonio finds Danny Green and Gary Neal and Kawhi Leonard and Splitter and on and on. Good process there.

So, I hope our process gets better (somehow) and I hope for luck. And I hope for good results.
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