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Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Part II

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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#381 » by hands11 » Sun Aug 4, 2013 1:25 am

barelyawake wrote:Hands, I'm unsure who you are arguing with. Signing Dirk = getting a star. It also probably means letting Okafor walk. I'm unsure how you think what you posted is in disagreement with what I wrote. If Wiz management can swing getting Dirk, I would have no complaints. I said IF management thinks we are set with our current roster. I never said they were. I truly hope they are not.

However, EG did think much more of Blatche than he should have (when there were obvious signs that he wasn't to be relied upon as a star option). IF management feels the same about Porter, and bases our future on him being a star player, then I have a problem. IF...


Maybe I over reacted and if I did, sorry, but I think it was this part..

If Wiz management has such a lack of vision to not see the limitations of this team (before it happens), we need new management who has some semblance of vision -- because this junk is predictable.

..

If you saw Ted interview, they already laid out the plan. I think they know the potential and the limitations. They did have a plan. Ted laid it out.

Rebuild from scratch. He actually said they were more like an expansion team in the approach they took. Only difference in my book is that is was actually worse then that. They had Gil and his contract which was the worst in the league at the time. They knew it would be tough. They told Wall that.

So hit reset.
Build your core through the draft.
Get to playoff by adding solid vets around your young players. In the Wiz case, it was built around Wall.
They added Beal to do that. He compliments Wall perfectly. Now its build around Wall and Beal.

So once you get good, and to the playoffs, use that along with showing off DC and how the franchise is better run, and land a big name FA. Trevor A and Okafor were not long contracts.

That's what Ted said just the other day. That is the plan. Was the plan.

So here we go. Get to the playoffs. If I was to bet today, I would put my money on them getting there. I like the main players and the flexibility of the rotations. I also like their cap situation. It also gives them options.

Wall and Beal are a legit young premium back court.
Webster and Trevor A while not A list FAs are legit NBA players and between them can play from SG to S4 PF
Nene is a legit A class PF when healthy. And at 30 I think his a mature, hungry and experienced.
Okafor is just blue collar solid as a C/PF. Need on of those on your team.

That core, not even at max health, already proved they can beat the best out there.

They could use a little more "known talent" off the bench but that is at the expense of giving their young prospects a chance to show they belong or raise their trade value. Adding known depth would help this year but would get in the way of giving those player a more legit chance. Experience on vet min could be fine but so is leaving some min open and a roster spot ( the 15th )

I could live with them going into the season as is. I'm sure they are keeping tabs on the Dirk situation. Doesn't seem like Dallas is going to move him just yet.

So does getting Ilyasova help you get Dirke. Some argue he is a good movable asset. I could see that. Trevor A expiring really isn't worth much in a trade. Ilyasova signed might be something Dallas wants. So many come trade deadline we can trade Trevor A for something like a Ilyasova and get assets in return for clearing a teams cap. Maybe its a 3 ways.

Trevor to MLK Ilyasova to Dallas, Dirk to the Wizards with whatever else it takes. Works for me. Specially if Dirk is extended at 10M or so for 2 or 3 years.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#382 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sun Aug 4, 2013 4:13 am

DCZards wrote:I would definitely try to resign Emeka--at the right price of course. A tough and rugged defender, rebounder and shotblocker in the paint is a valuable asset, even if they can only be counted on to score 8-10 pts. per game. Tyson Chandler filled that role for a championship Mavs team as well as a gold medal winning Olympic team.

It also doesn't hurt that Okafor is smart, a team leader and a workout warrior.


barelyawake wrote:The Mavs had Dirk. We don't. Okafor is great, if we had a star big next to him. We don't. If management thinks we are set for the next three to four years, they will be wasting the greatest opportunity the Wiz have had in decades. The team as constructed will peak at a sixth seed, as we all wait for Porter to develop into a star (which won't happen). Okafor is the heart of the team? Good. I actually agree. Keep him. But, now somehow flip Nene (and future picks) for a star -- which will never happen. If Wiz management has such a lack of vision to not see the limitations of this team (before it happens), we need new management who has some semblance of vision -- because this junk is predictable. We need another star or Wiz management is just wasting everyone's time. This season (or next offseason) is time to go all in with future picks and Porter as bait (if we keep Okafor).

The best outcome is Cousins C/Okafor PF. How we get there is what Wiz management, and Wall, need to be working tirelessly on. And that takes extensive, contingency planning -- the one area our management has failed at repeatly. Ted needs to know that, and medical staff, have been our weakness (and demand better future thinking). That is the one thing, as an owner, he can do. If I were Ted, I would demand to see a three year plan outlined with every possible contingency.



I'm actually really warming to the idea of going for Monroe with a max offer next offseason when Okafor/Ariza expire. If we can bring in Monroe, I'd love to keep Okafor as a backup C/PF, maybe with the MLE. I'd rather keep him and let the lot of Vesely, Seraphin, Booker, Singleton move on if necessary. Okafor is the type of vet you want on your team, especially in the playoffs, and as a C/PF off the bench he'd give us everything we get from that group collectively.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#383 » by barelyawake » Sun Aug 4, 2013 6:18 am

Hands, I think you don't remember my stances on various issues (which is worrisome because I remember yours, Dat's, Kevin's and most everybody's way back to before you started posting here). I endorsed the Okafor/Ariza trade (for the exact reasons you mentioned). I did so, again, as late as a month ago. I wanted the pick. But, despite others bitching, I thought the outcome of the trade would be exactly what you mentioned -- playoffs plus expiring contracts.

My question is once the Wiz make the playoffs for the first time in ages will they be willing to go further? Are they willing to trade assets for the big move (or will they rest on Porter, perhaps, getting them over the hump)? I feel our M.O. has been hoping X player develops (who shows signs of never developing into a star player). And my comments came in regards to a post about resigning Okafor for 9 million (which would eat our cap). We can't resign Okafor for 9 million and also sign Dirk. I just hope Wiz management has this thing planned out (so we don't get trapped). Because they have a tendency to believe in player hype (Blatche) versus what actually wins championships (a true star big). You can't just go by what they say without also looking at their record (for instance, resigning Blatche).
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#384 » by hands11 » Sun Aug 4, 2013 7:29 pm

barelyawake wrote:Hands, I think you don't remember my stances on various issues (which is worrisome because I remember yours, Dat's, Kevin's and most everybody's way back to before you started posting here). I endorsed the Okafor/Ariza trade (for the exact reasons you mentioned). I did so, again, as late as a month ago. I wanted the pick. But, despite others bitching, I thought the outcome of the trade would be exactly what you mentioned -- playoffs plus expiring contracts.

My question is once the Wiz make the playoffs for the first time in ages will they be willing to go further? Are they willing to trade assets for the big move (or will they rest on Porter, perhaps, getting them over the hump)? I feel our M.O. has been hoping X player develops (who shows signs of never developing into a star player). And my comments came in regards to a post about resigning Okafor for 9 million (which would eat our cap). We can't resign Okafor for 9 million and also sign Dirk. I just hope Wiz management has this thing planned out (so we don't get trapped). Because they have a tendency to believe in player hype (Blatche) versus what actually wins championships (a true star big). You can't just go by what they say without also looking at their record (for instance, resigning Blatche).


If that was your stance, then you were correct and you understood why they made the move.

I don't think they really have a clear MO yet. At least not an MO for building a team to stage 4. This is new territory. Dray was before Ted. If you want to know what they are likely to do, I wouldn't include any moves before Ted got here. You would be better off looking to what Ted has done with the Caps for guidance.

Ted is leading this rebuild. Not EG. EG is executing his plan. Not making it.

What we know is what they have done since Ted and what Ted is telling us the next moves and plan is. He seems to have kept with his rebuild plan so far. He says next, the goal is the playoff to help show the team is legit, then they are looking for that big FA asset and they are willing to pay for it if they find the right piece. He is also talking about building with the young core including Otto, and vets. Which makes sense. He is supporting the players that are here but when the time comes to make a move, they will have to consider moving someone like Otto to get that piece. But like I said, how willing they are to do that is unknown even to them at this point. First they have to see more of him. As of today, I don't think it is Otto that will get them over the hump, its Wall, Beal, Webster, Trevor A, Nene and Okafor and that next big name FA. If that FA comes available this off season, Otto would be the piece to move before you consider moving Wall or Beal. That's for sure. Otto would have to have an amazing first year if he were to become unmovable. More likely, he look good enough to be something another team wants. But we will see. Its unlikely we get something like Dirk without giving up something we like.

As for keeping Okafor and getting Dirk, I think it is doable. I laid it out in the trade thread. One option is to extend Okafor, then do a sign and trade of Dirk.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#385 » by barelyawake » Sun Aug 4, 2013 7:56 pm

Well, I hope you are right. My posts are only to voice a concern to anyone in management who happens to be listening (if they are, which they most likely are not). As a lifelong fan of this team, I won't accept just the playoffs after so long, by merely resigning our players and making small, incremental improvements. We have the opportunity to make a large move. We are a large market. We are now a destination city. And we should no longer accept just making the playoffs for a few years and then falling back down (once our resigned players get old). We need to make bold moves. And my hope is they do. My posts only serve as a warning that if they don't, they will lose a lot of fans like me who have been waiting not for a sixth seed, but an actual contender. I never bought Antawn, Gil and Caron as a contender. And I won't buy Wall, Beal and Porter as a "big three." Not without a star big to go with them.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#386 » by hands11 » Mon Aug 5, 2013 2:02 am

barelyawake wrote:Well, I hope you are right. My posts are only to voice a concern to anyone in management who happens to be listening (if they are, which they most likely are not). As a lifelong fan of this team, I won't accept just the playoffs after so long, by merely resigning our players and making small, incremental improvements. We have the opportunity to make a large move. We are a large market. We are now a destination city. And we should no longer accept just making the playoffs for a few years and then falling back down (once our resigned players get old). We need to make bold moves. And my hope is they do. My posts only serve as a warning that if they don't, they will lose a lot of fans like me who have been waiting not for a sixth seed, but an actual contender. I never bought Antawn, Gil and Caron as a contender. And I won't buy Wall, Beal and Porter as a "big three." Not without a star big to go with them.


We were always a potential destination city. But I don't think we are one just yet. Getting a lot closer though. They have enough pieces to make some noise. This is a show me year. At least a .500 record, playoffs, AND a decent showing in the playoffs.. meaning at least 2 wins and better if it is 3, then they enter destination city territory. They win closer to .550 and win the first round, THE BARN DOORS ARE OPEN. WE HAVE ARRIVED. I think you would be able to start calling them a destination city.

I wasn't a big fan of that build out either. Specially with EFJ leading the way. So we are on the same page there. That team I felt was capped out as a first round exit team that could sometimes get out of the first round. But not a conference level team. No D. Weave and Heave. Gibertology. D Sleezy. Nahh.

Not sure many are buying Wall, Beal and Otto as a big three. Specially before we even see Otto in a real NBA game. And even after he does, I think it's more likely the next big piece is that FA Ted spoke about. Otto would have to be better then Wall, Beal, Nene and that big name FA in order for him to be a core piece in the next 2-3 years. For him to do that, he would have to be AMAZINGLY good.

I mean think about it. If their goal is playoffs this year min and winning a first round near the max goal.
Next year they would look to add that big name FA. At that point they are shooting for winning the first round as the bear min and conference finals near the max goal.

How would Otto be one of the 3 most important pieces in that scenario ? Specially if it takes dealing him in order to get that big name FA.

If I was Otto, I wouldn't be buying a house just yet. Maybe he sticks around. Maybe he needs to get dealt. No more then a 50-50 chance he makes it to year two with this team at this point.

If you don't know what Teds plan is, listen to some of this interviews.

http://www.monumentalnetwork.com/videos ... ec17ed0000
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#387 » by barelyawake » Mon Aug 5, 2013 1:28 pm

Hands, I suppose the problem is I'm always arguing what will happen a year out. And once the year passes, people forget what I said. Much of what you are saying I said a year ago (or more). By "destination city," I mean once we reach the playoffs with the best backcourt in our history. And my argument now has to do with our plans a year from now, again.

Yes, I have heard what Ted said about a big free agent. I also heard talk about continuity. Those two could be polar opposites come next offseason. He did not say next offseason we would bring in a big free agent. He said, once we have established ourselves we will try to. That could mean when Nene's contract is up. Ted said you build around three pieces that you draft. That means he COULD be less willing to trade Porter than we should be. I don't see how what Ted said gels at all with your Porter for Dirk idea. It goes against many things Ted had said previously.

The Caps aren't a good measure. The Caps have never been to the finals. If being a perennial playoff loser is "mission accomplished," I find that unacceptable. I understand Ted says that is not his goal. But, without big moves, that will be the result. And those moves could damage the "continuity" of a team that just reached the playoffs.

We will have to see. I just know I don't want to wait until 2016 to make the big move. And that's the danger. Despite what Ted says now. I'm a Ted supporter, but I can easily see him justifying NOT getting the big free agent, and instead just resigning our guys next offseason (with an eye on 2016). And that would be a terrible move IMO (unless the end result is Durant).
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#388 » by Dat2U » Mon Aug 5, 2013 1:44 pm

I still see no reason to even consider re-signing Okafor.

We need to upgrade the C position, not maintain it. Okafor is fine as a stopgap but we need to quit deluding ourselves if we think we have an ideal situation or even passable situation at C. Just look at the East and tell me where we stand in comparison to other teams. We simply don't stack up well compared to the others.

1. Tyson Chandler / Andrea Bargnani
2. Brook Lopez / Andray Blatche
3. Andre Drummond / Greg Monroe
4. Chris Bosh / Chris Andersen / Greg Oden
5. Al Horford / Elton Brand
6. Larry Sanders / ZaZa Pachulia / Viacheslav Kravtsov
7. Anderson Varejao / Andrew Bynum / Tyler Zeller
8. Joakim Noah / Nazr Mohammed
9. Roy Hibbert / Ian Mahinmi
10. Jonas Valanciunas / Aaron Gray
11. Al Jefferson / Bismack Biyombo / Brendan Haywood
12. Nikola Vucevic / Glen Davis / Kyle O'Quinn
13. Spencer Hawes / Lavoy Allen / Nerlens Noel
14. Kelly Olynyk / Vitor Faverani / Fab Melo
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#389 » by LyricalRico » Mon Aug 5, 2013 3:13 pm

^ That's true as long as Nene plays PF. But if we acquired a starting PF and move Nene back to the middle so the rotation was Nene/Okafor, then I think we're definitely top 10 in the East at center. In that scenario, retaining Okafor at around the MLE to be a 18-20 mpg backup who can start if Nene misses a few games would be fine with me.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#390 » by Ruzious » Mon Aug 5, 2013 3:30 pm

Assuming the Wiz keep Nene and do acquire a big-name big by next offseason (which I believe is their plan), I can't envision a situation that they will be ABLE to keep Okafor. He will command far too much in free agency for the Wiz to afford him. He's a valued player, but what he does - provide postiional defense and rebounding - is replacable - sometimes by players who get by on average talent and who may not be expensive.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#391 » by Nivek » Mon Aug 5, 2013 3:49 pm

The league's salary cap rules make it pretty close to impossible for the Wizards to keep Okafor AND sign a significant free agent. The NBA assigns cap holds for free agents. The hold for Okafor and Ariza (as Bird free agents making more than the league average not coming off a rookie contract) is 150% of their salary (or the maximum salary).

Okafor's cap hold will be approximately $19.2 million. Ariza's will be about $11.6 million.

Both numbers can be reduced by signing them for less or by renouncing them. They don't have to renounce their rights to either guy until they actually want to use the cap room.

So, let's say the Wizards decline options for next season on Vesely, Seraphin and Singleton, and that they renounce Booker. That's about $19.9 million in cleared cap space, which (after accounting for the cap holds for Okafor and Ariza) would leave the Wizards $16.0 million over the cap (roughly).

If they re-sign Okafor for $8 million and renounce Ariza, they'd have about $6.7 million in cap room. Before accounting for their draft pick. So, less.

Only way the Wizards can pay for a max salary big man would be to renounce Okafor and Ariza, as well as Vesely, Seraphin, Singleton and Booker.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#392 » by LyricalRico » Mon Aug 5, 2013 4:05 pm

Agreed, if it comes to FA next summer, the Wizards will have to let Okafor walk to make a big signing. I should have been more specific that I was talking about a scenario where the Wiz acquire a big via trade before then. At that point bringing back Okafor would only be a luxury tax issue.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#393 » by Ruzious » Mon Aug 5, 2013 5:10 pm

Nivek wrote:The league's salary cap rules make it pretty close to impossible for the Wizards to keep Okafor AND sign a significant free agent. The NBA assigns cap holds for free agents. The hold for Okafor and Ariza (as Bird free agents making more than the league average not coming off a rookie contract) is 150% of their salary (or the maximum salary).

Okafor's cap hold will be approximately $19.2 million. Ariza's will be about $11.6 million.

Both numbers can be reduced by signing them for less or by renouncing them. They don't have to renounce their rights to either guy until they actually want to use the cap room.

So, let's say the Wizards decline options for next season on Vesely, Seraphin and Singleton, and that they renounce Booker. That's about $19.9 million in cleared cap space, which (after accounting for the cap holds for Okafor and Ariza) would leave the Wizards $16.0 million over the cap (roughly).

If they re-sign Okafor for $8 million and renounce Ariza, they'd have about $6.7 million in cap room. Before accounting for their draft pick. So, less.

Only way the Wizards can pay for a max salary big man would be to renounce Okafor and Ariza, as well as Vesely, Seraphin, Singleton and Booker.

The question that I can't get past is - Does this front office have the character to admit they wasted 4 first round picks? I don't know if I would - to be frank. And that's one of the reasons I think they need to replace EG sooner rather than later. Shirly, he has no more character than me.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#394 » by Jay81 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:33 pm

Nivek wrote:I think it's a bad trade, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise by what happens on the floor. I'd love to be wrong.


from Grantland today

http://grantland.com/features/nba-playo ... rtney-lee/


The Wizards were a rebuilding team when they dealt Rashard Lewis’s massive unguaranteed contract to New Orleans for Trevor Ariza and Emeka Okafor. Everyone laughed at them. The Hornets waived Lewis for cap savings, while the Wizards had voluntarily clogged up their cap with two mediocrities earning more than $20 million between them. Think of what else they might have done with that cap space, or all the juicy draft picks they might have piled up by staying horrible!

The criticism was fair; the NBA is a shades-of-gray place. Taking on those contracts carried an opportunity cost. But it also brought the opportunity to field a team of, you know, good NBA players.

And holy crap, does Ariza look irreplaceable right now in shredding the Bulls. He has always been a very good defender, a long-armed pest with artful sliding footwork, capable of guarding either wing position. Washington has even used him to bottle up D.J. Augustin since the stretch run of Game 2.

The Rockets had instant buyer’s remorse on Ariza’s five-year, $34 million contract, and swapped him for Courtney Lee in a four-team deal after the 2010 season. Ariza went to New Orleans, where he morphed into a horrifically bad shooter while experimenting with pull-up jumpers and off-the-bounce stuff outside his skill set. Seriously, his numbers were Antoine Walker–level bad.

The Wiz bet he could do better, and Ariza has thrived as a spot-up mooch gobbling up open corner 3s courtesy of John Wall’s brilliance. He’s a useful secondary ball handler in very select matchups, and Washington in this series has allowed him to attack Mike Dunleavy Jr.

The Wizards could not have known things would work out this well. They weren’t sure what Wall would be, and no one could have foreseen Ariza shooting like Ray Allen.

And there was no fathomable reality in which Washington, in 2014, would be a threat to make the conference finals. But Derrick Rose is hurt again, the Celtics are gone, the Knicks were miserable, and the Pacers appear diseased. Basketball is unpredictable like that. Ariza is a free agent this summer, and teams will have to decide whether he can put up numbers like this without Wall. Again: Context is everything in the NBA.

It’s not a coincidence that this list is full of wing players. Point guards and big men get paid. Hell, JaVale McGee somehow earned $10.75 million this season. The wing position is the league’s thinnest right now, and it’s also the place where teams try to cheap out and hope they can cobble together one useful player out of three substandard ones. It is a place for wagers on mercurial talent.

The Wiz gave up more than a first-round pick in dealing for Gortat before the season. They gave up that pick in a market in which it carried astronomical value, and they attached Okafor’s giant expiring contract. Those had value together, and the Wiz could have combined them with other assets — Otto Porter,3 future picks, Wolf Blitzer — to chase a true franchise-level star down the line. And even with Gortat in a weak Eastern Conference, the Wiz still have championship odds somewhere very close to zero.

Maybe this is all a fool’s errand, especially if the Wiz trap themselves into overpaying Gortat, who just turned 30, when he hits free agency this summer. But Gortat has been a nice two-way piece, setting nasty screens, finishing on rolls to the hoop with both hands, and providing solid interior defense. He and Nene have the Bulls’ defense on its heels.
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Re: Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Par 

Post#395 » by hands11 » Thu May 1, 2014 2:40 am

Quality bump. Lots of good material in here.

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