ImageImageImageImageImage

Predict the Eastern Conference Standings

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, WizStorm, pineappleheadindc, miller31time

User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 30,419
And1: 2,351
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#361 » by hands11 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:11 pm

payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:(Leonard and Faried played for) ...playoff teams. Those are very different situations from what the Wizards were going through.

And ...Lots of teams passed on those players. Not just the Wizards.

Had it happened (that we picked L and F), I don't believe they would have Beal now.... Would those other two players be better vs Beal, C Singleton and Ves.... Maybe... Much of that will be determined by how good Beal is. If you had to decide today, you would rather have Faried and K Lenard for sure.... But it didn't go down like that and we really don't have that crystal ball to see how it will work out.

So... this is the kind of thinking and (to me non)analysis that I'm often puzzled by, Hands.

Do you think that playoff teams exist independent of the players they draft and otherwise acquire? The opposite is true. Leonard and Faried are better than Ves and Singleton. Full stop. Better players. A better GM picks better players.

As to "we wouldn't have Beal..." this too is specious. It reduces to "it's better to be worse," which is nonsense. Moreover, who knows, we might have had to draft Andre Drummond, and who knows we might see him turn out to be a star, in which case we'd have Leonard, Faried and a star center.

And it's not "if you had to decide today...", it's not hindsight in which e.g. Faried looks like a better player than Singleton. I would have picked him *then* over Singleton. In a minute. I didn't like Vesely then either. I would have picked Leonard w/ a sense of disappointment, and then I would have been delighted by how he showed.


Stop with your non analysis BS. Nothing to be puzzled by.

Most of what happens here is speculation. You included.

Sure there is good analysis of what players have done and some good chooses for who to draft or add. But most the trade ideas are WAGs as are projections of what players will do this year. But that's ok. We are here to do that stuff. Just get your head out of your rss thinking you aren't doing the same damn thing.

Tons of if and buts.

What I do know is we have the players we have. We have the owner we have and he isn't going anywhere. I am going to cheer for my team. Its not the team of the picks I would have made either. But I am looking forward to see them tonight and the rest of the season. I wanted Beal. We have him. I wanted them to keep the younger players. They did. I wanted Randy as the HC. He is. I wanted a few more vets, that added them.

Being a Wizards fan, that a lot more to run with then the crap I have had in past years so I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth. I'm more positive about this build that I was with the Gil EFJ Abe build. That I am sure of.
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paul Pierce is not only THE TRUTH.. HE IS FREAKN YODA
User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 30,419
And1: 2,351
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#362 » by hands11 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:25 pm

montestewart wrote:hands, I was just talking about the strike-shortened season, but you're right that Leonard and Faried came into better situations (better systems and mix of players) than our draft picks. I'm not giving up on them after one year, but as a group, they have yet to show they were worth their picks.


Fair enough Mont

I was just reminding you that Booker didn't look great his first year. Nor did Kevin. And their first years included summer camp and a preseason. And they came a bad team like Ves and C Singleton did. This is why they added vets. And not just any vets. They added vets that want to teach the younger players. Vets that understand what is what here. Player development isn't all about the coaches. Its about the players getting taught and the players on the team that connect with them to teach them. Its all 3 things.

Just trying to frame the situations with more of the details.

Now if neither show the progress they need to show this year, we may want to cash in for better options.

For me, I think Ves is a good longer term piece. I don't expect him to be a starter on a good team for at least 2 more years.. age 24. As for Chris. I think he has a chance to step it up this year. He doesn't have the starter personality I look for, but he might be able to show he has game. A lot of that in my view will depend on how hard he takes it to the rack. He is a SF. He should be able to slash. Last year he was handed the position. Now he has to prove he deserves it.

If not, he will be a roll player or off the team. We will see.
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paul Pierce is not only THE TRUTH.. HE IS FREAKN YODA
User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 30,419
And1: 2,351
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#363 » by hands11 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:34 pm

nate33 wrote:From the General Board:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/10/10/howard-eskin-bynums-injury-perhaps-more-serious-than-sixers-indicate/

PHILADELPHIA (CBS) – Andrew Bynum will miss all of Sixers training camp, and will likely not see any playing time during preseason games as he rests his knees. According to the team, Bynum not playing is a precautionary measure “in order to maximize the therapeutic effects of the Orthokine therapy he received earlier this month.”

The Sixers did also say that Bynum was “diagnosed with a bone bruise of the medial femoral chondyle of his right knee.”

94WIP’s Howard Eskin says that he is “getting the sense there is a more serious injury with Andrew Bynum’s knee than the Sixers are telling us. I will go as far as saying I think the Lakers may have given the Sixers damaged goods.”


:lol: :lol:

The grass always looks greener doesn't it. McGee isn't starting either. Gil isn't even playing on a team. Okafor and Trevor A for Gil and Lewis rental during the tank years is a steel.

The Wizards haven't done so bad. Nene only have planters. And I believe they caught the Wall issue early. Of all the injuries, Booker actually worries me the most. He just always seems to come up lame.
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paul Pierce is not only THE TRUTH.. HE IS FREAKN YODA
montestewart
General Manager
Posts: 8,333
And1: 1,137
Joined: Feb 25, 2009

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#364 » by montestewart » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:25 am

hands11 wrote:I was just reminding you that Booker didn't look great his first year. Nor did Kevin. And their first years included summer camp and a preseason. And they came a bad team like Ves and C Singleton did.

Seraphin frequently looked horrible, out of shape, and out of his depth his first year, but he also looked like he was willing to learn, and occasionally showed footwork and awareness beyond the level of the other young big men. I was patient with him, and I'll be patient with Vesely too, because despite his shortcomings, he's shown similar determination and court awareness.

As to the rookie Booker, I have to disagree. In the beginning, he didn't look so hot, but he soon became a rim attacking energy player. Compare his first year numbers with those of the other four draft picks over the last two years:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y5=2012
A PER of 15.3 and a WS/48 of .119 in his first year (in more than marginal minutes) confirms what my eyes told me. Maybe it's because he was a four-year college player, arriving more ready to go, but he was justifying his draft position pretty soon into his first year.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 956
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#365 » by Nivek » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:37 pm

Booker had a good rookie season. Seraphin was a disaster as a rookie.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 34,961
And1: 1,280
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Ft. Washington, MD/Mililani, HI

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#366 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:34 pm

Flip was the coach. Kevin spoke very little English. Seraphin was also injured and lacked conditioning afterward as a rookie.

Others have already said it, and I agree, that Seraphin made a huge leap improving from his rookie season to the next. I'm not worried about his play. He defends well but is a poor rebounder. Kevin likes his hook shot and will be an effective post scorer. I won't be shocked if he's starting over Okafor before too long.
The Wizards Need 1: KD2DC, DMC2DC, KLOVE2DC, or LMA2DC
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 40,717
And1: 2,017
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#367 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:04 pm

Seraphin must become better at drawing fouls if he is ever going to be a reliable, high-efficiency scorer. You can't hope to post a TS% above .550 with consistency unless you get to the foul line.
payitforward
Analyst
Posts: 3,500
And1: 536
Joined: May 02, 2012

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#368 » by payitforward » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:57 pm

hands11 wrote:... Booker didn't look great his first year.

??
Booker had an outstanding rookie year. His productivity was well above average for an NBA 4. Among guys who played 10 or more minutes, WS40 puts him in the top 30%. Overall, playing almost 40% more minutes per game (but fewer games), his numbers went up slightly last year.

He's a much better player than he gets credit for.
People say I'm mellowing with age. Nah.

It is still not possible to formulate a counter-argument -- even if I say... Is so!
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 956
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#369 » by Nivek » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:13 pm

I think Booker suffers from the "he looks funny for a basketball player" malady. He looks more like a defensive end than a PF. His blockiness belies how quick/fast he is, and how well he jumps. I agree that he's a better player than he gets credit for.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
montestewart
General Manager
Posts: 8,333
And1: 1,137
Joined: Feb 25, 2009

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#370 » by montestewart » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:35 pm

Nivek wrote:I think Booker suffers from the "he looks funny for a basketball player" malady. He looks more like a defensive end than a PF. His blockiness belies how quick/fast he is, and how well he jumps. I agree that he's a better player than he gets credit for.

Balzac on Booker:
How strange! In every great man whose portrait I have remarked, the neck is short. Perhaps nature requires that in them the heart should be nearer to the brain!

Spoken by the title character in Louis Lambert
Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 27,536
And1: 829
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
     

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#371 » by Ruzious » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:15 pm

nate33 wrote:From the General Board:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/10/10/howard-eskin-bynums-injury-perhaps-more-serious-than-sixers-indicate/

PHILADELPHIA (CBS) – Andrew Bynum will miss all of Sixers training camp, and will likely not see any playing time during preseason games as he rests his knees. According to the team, Bynum not playing is a precautionary measure “in order to maximize the therapeutic effects of the Orthokine therapy he received earlier this month.”

The Sixers did also say that Bynum was “diagnosed with a bone bruise of the medial femoral chondyle of his right knee.”

94WIP’s Howard Eskin says that he is “getting the sense there is a more serious injury with Andrew Bynum’s knee than the Sixers are telling us. I will go as far as saying I think the Lakers may have given the Sixers damaged goods.”

Nene or Okafor for Bynum. It's a win win.... except for Washington and Philly... and the players.
"Morey plays three dimensional chess. EFG plays tic-tac-toe and can't seem to get the hang of it."
- Benjamin
DMVleGeND
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,771
And1: 168
Joined: Sep 06, 2010
Location: PG County, MD
   

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#372 » by DMVleGeND » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:19 pm

nate33 wrote:From the General Board:

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2012/10/10/howard-eskin-bynums-injury-perhaps-more-serious-than-sixers-indicate/

PHILADELPHIA (CBS) – Andrew Bynum will miss all of Sixers training camp, and will likely not see any playing time during preseason games as he rests his knees. According to the team, Bynum not playing is a precautionary measure “in order to maximize the therapeutic effects of the Orthokine therapy he received earlier this month.”

The Sixers did also say that Bynum was “diagnosed with a bone bruise of the medial femoral chondyle of his right knee.”

94WIP’s Howard Eskin says that he is “getting the sense there is a more serious injury with Andrew Bynum’s knee than the Sixers are telling us. I will go as far as saying I think the Lakers may have given the Sixers damaged goods.”


This is a non-story. This Howard Eskin guy is just speculating.

The doctor actually said that Bynum should wait to get the Orthokine therapy right before training camp instead of the middle of the offseason. Don't know the reason why, but that's why he's missing time.
Formerly known as 7-day Dray
User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 30,419
And1: 2,351
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#373 » by hands11 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:33 pm

payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:... Booker didn't look great his first year.

??
Booker had an outstanding rookie year. His productivity was well above average for an NBA 4. Among guys who played 10 or more minutes, WS40 puts him in the top 30%. Overall, playing almost 40% more minutes per game (but fewer games), his numbers went up slightly last year.

He's a much better player than he gets credit for.


He had zero outside shoot. I always liked Booker but he was a self check from outside 6 feet.
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paul Pierce is not only THE TRUTH.. HE IS FREAKN YODA
montestewart
General Manager
Posts: 8,333
And1: 1,137
Joined: Feb 25, 2009

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#374 » by montestewart » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:06 pm

hands11 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:... Booker didn't look great his first year.

??
Booker had an outstanding rookie year. His productivity was well above average for an NBA 4. Among guys who played 10 or more minutes, WS40 puts him in the top 30%. Overall, playing almost 40% more minutes per game (but fewer games), his numbers went up slightly last year.

He's a much better player than he gets credit for.


He had zero outside shoot. I always liked Booker but he was a self check from outside 6 feet.

It's a good thing he's a gritty, bruising, board attacking PF, or his first year might have sucked. But it didn't.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 956
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#375 » by Nivek » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:13 am

Given the conversion rates, a significant majority of NBA players should follow Booker's lead and not shoot from beyond 6 feet. Booker wasn't a good shooter from outside, SO HE DIDN'T SHOOT IT FROM OUTSIDE. This is smart. And, he contributed in ways other than shooting. Also smart.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 30,419
And1: 2,351
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#376 » by hands11 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:48 am

There is a mile between not sucking and not having a great year.

I said the later.

Again, I am not bashing Booker in the least. I have always been a huge Booker fan. I never agree with people in the trade trade using him in trades this year or last.

His rookie year he showed some promising talent but it wasn't a great year. That's all I said.

He wasn't a good outside shooter so he didn't shoot much from out there which I agree was smart. He did other things. Not many thought he would improve as much as he did from mid range his second year. Now he looks like he has fixed his shoot even more.

Well you can say a lot of the same types of things about Ves in year one. He also couldn't shoot from outside and didn't. He also showed he could do other things to contribute. Lets hope he shows similar progress on a mid range like Book did. That would be a welcome sight.

For now, I have no idea what they will get from Ves. Once everyone is healthy, he could get pushed behind all of them. Its up to him to prove he deserves the minutes. The bus is leaving the station. This isn't a tank team anymore. Players need to step up and earn minutes. No free passes bases on salary or draft position.
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paul Pierce is not only THE TRUTH.. HE IS FREAKN YODA
montestewart
General Manager
Posts: 8,333
And1: 1,137
Joined: Feb 25, 2009

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#377 » by montestewart » Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:02 am

hands11 wrote:There is a mile between not sucking and not having a great year.

I said the later.

Again, I am not bashing Booker in the least. I have always been a huge Booker fan. I never agree with people in the trade trade using him in trades this year or last.

His rookie year he showed some promising talent but it wasn't a great year. That's all I said.

He wasn't a good outside shooter so he didn't shoot much from out there which I agree was smart. He did other things. Not many thought he would improve as much as he did from mid range his second year. Now he looks like he has fixed his shoot even more.

Well you can say a lot of the same types of things about Ves in year one. He also couldn't shoot from outside and didn't. He also showed he could do other things to contribute. Lets hope he shows similar progress on a mid range like Book did. That would be a welcome sight.

For now, I have no idea what they will get from Ves. Once everyone is healthy, he could get pushed behind all of them. Its up to him to prove he deserves the minutes. The bus is leaving the station. This isn't a tank team anymore. Players need to step up and earn minutes. No free passes bases on salary or draft position.


You brought him up when I mentioned that last year's picks haven't yet lived up to their draft positions. I guess you were trying to say that none of the recent draft picks were great. The exchange is below:

hands11 wrote:
montestewart wrote:hands, I was just talking about the strike-shortened season, but you're right that Leonard and Faried came into better situations (better systems and mix of players) than our draft picks. I'm not giving up on them after one year, but as a group, they have yet to show they were worth their picks.


Fair enough Mont

I was just reminding you that Booker didn't look great his first year. Nor did Kevin. And their first years included summer camp and a preseason. And they came a bad team like Ves and C Singleton did.


And again, I disagree. I didn't say GOAT, I didn't say HOF, I didn't 1st Team All NBA. For a 23rd pick in a draft that was not and still is not considered exceptionally deep, for an undersized PF, for a rookie, and especially when compared to Seraphin, Vesely, Singleton, and Mack, Booker had a great rookie season. His advanced metrics were above average, and if you watched his games, you could see it. Bill Russell didn't have much of an outside shot. Neither did Rodman, Wilt, or Shaq. Neither does Dwight Howard. What's that got to do with a strong inside player whose inside strengths are strength and playing inside? Quit searching for words to rationalize grouping his rookie season with Seraphin's rookie season, because those words will fail you. Seraphin had a horrible rookie season. Booker had a great rookie season. Not an average rookie season, not a so so rookie season, not an okay rookie season. A GRRRRRREAT!!! rookie season.


Image Yup. That's what I said. Great.
User avatar
closg00
RealGM
Posts: 15,940
And1: 360
Joined: Nov 21, 2004

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#378 » by closg00 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:17 pm

Guys on a message board could do a better job managing the Wizards than Ernie Grunfeld.
User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 30,419
And1: 2,351
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#379 » by hands11 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:45 am

Tyson Chandler Sprains Right
76ers To Sit Bynum Until He Has No Pain In Knee

This should help level the playing field.
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paul Pierce is not only THE TRUTH.. HE IS FREAKN YODA
ntsap
Senior
Posts: 740
And1: 80
Joined: Nov 05, 2012

Re: Predict the Eastern Conference Standings 

Post#380 » by ntsap » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:54 pm

1. Miami Heat
2. New York Knicks
3. Boston Celtics
4. Brooklyn Nets
5. Philadelphia 76ers
6. Chicago Bulls
7. Indiana Pacers
8. Milwaukee Bucks
9. Atlanta Hawks
10. Toronto Raptors
11. Cleveland Cavaliers
12. Orlando Magic
13. Washington Wizards
14. Detroit Pistons
15. Charlotte Bobcats

Return to Washington Wizards