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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

Moderators: LyricalRico, pineappleheadindc, nate33, WizStorm, miller31time

Post#1041 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:19 am by pineappleheadindc

I feel bad for Rubio -- or anyone who has to give the rebuttal to the SOTU. They're never delivered exactly right. Part of it is athmospherics, part of it is because you have to write it before the SOTU and guess what the President is saying. That last thing ensures that at some point, you're "rebutting" something that the President didn't say at all and not addressing something he did say that you really want to get in on.

Specifics:

Rubio: But President Obama? He believes it's the cause of our problems. That the economic downturn happened because our government didn't tax enough, spend enough and control enough. And, therefore, as you heard tonight, his solution to virtually every problem we face is for Washington to tax more, borrow more and spend more.

Pine: I read the entire Obama transcript and saw none of this.


Rubio: And tonight, he even criticized us for refusing to raise taxes to delay military cuts – cuts that were his idea in the first place.

Pine: I must have missed this part of the SOTU speech. (Disclosure: I was jumping back and forth to the Caps game).


Rubio: One of the best ways to encourage growth is through our energy industry. Of course solar and wind energy should be a part of our energy portfolio. But God also blessed America with abundant coal, oil and natural gas. Instead of wasting more taxpayer money on so-called "clean energy" companies like Solyndra, let's open up more federal lands for safe and responsible exploration. And let's reform our energy regulations so that they're reasonable and based on common sense.

Pine: Didn't Obama say just about the exact same thing? Particularly with respect to natural gas?


Well...you get the idea.

For whoever has to give the next rebuttal to the SOTU, here is my free political advice to you.

1. Don't rebut. Don't spend your time attacking the President and complaining about politics (like you're butthurt because he calls you a meanie). HAVE A VISION. Don't worry one iota about what the President says, don't even address what you think he'll say. Go directly into your policy vision.

2. Be optimistic. Be grand. Be Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton in your affect and speechwriting. Take listeners on a wonderful oratorical ride to the future of America and tell them how we'll all get there...together.

3. Preach compromise and working together. Here's specifics on Obama last night ("we know nobody's going to get 100% of what they want. But the American people want us to work together"). The traditional Republican line: ("Mr. President work with us to solve the problems...etc, etc). In practice, and the American people have caught on to this, that's code for: "The Republican position is what you have to start from, Mr. President." For better or worse (and I think it's worse), the American public wants to see real compromise. The Republicans don't do a good job of articulating that same desire in their wording -- *and don't get deserved credit even when they do compromise, which they have, on any number of things*.

4. Staging is important. I have a personal friend who used to staff former California Governor Schwarzenegger. We were talking about that water bottle last night on FB. He was nuts of the lack of staff acumen for Senator Rubio. It's okay to take a sip of water, but set it up. Have the initial video longshot show that there's a small table next to him with a tasteful water pitcher and a full glass (not Poland Springs bottle). That way, the audience knows it's coming if needs a sip. Again, nothing wrong with sipping water to wet your whistle. Having to reach way out into the next county for a bottle of Poland Springs...that's bad.

5. Speechwriting consistency is a good thing. Look, if you hate government, I'm not going to say you're objectively wrong...everyone has an opinion and political philosophy. But you shouldn't really then spend lots of time talking about how YOU benefited from the government via student loans. Instead, find a human story about a constituent who made it 100% without government help but pulled himself up by his bootstraps. (Heck, be daring and break the mold and have him on set and even script him for a few words about his story. That would be compelling -- and you can sneak a sip of water at the same time).

Ultimately, it's too hard to rebut the President in a quiet studio with none of the fanfare involved. So don't fight that fight. Make your "rebuttal" a speech and vision of your own terms. Make it grand and optimistic. You, the rebutter, will be more effective that way.

My dos centavos,

Pine
"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart."
--Confucius

"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try"
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Post#1042 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:49 am by popper

pineappleheadindc wrote:I feel bad for Rubio -- or anyone who has to give the rebuttal to the SOTU. They're never delivered exactly right. Part of it is athmospherics, part of it is because you have to write it before the SOTU and guess what the President is saying. That last thing ensures that at some point, you're "rebutting" something that the President didn't say at all and not addressing something he did say that you really want to get in on.

Specifics:

Rubio: But President Obama? He believes it's the cause of our problems. That the economic downturn happened because our government didn't tax enough, spend enough and control enough. And, therefore, as you heard tonight, his solution to virtually every problem we face is for Washington to tax more, borrow more and spend more.

Pine: I read the entire Obama transcript and saw none of this.


Rubio: And tonight, he even criticized us for refusing to raise taxes to delay military cuts – cuts that were his idea in the first place.

Pine: I must have missed this part of the SOTU speech. (Disclosure: I was jumping back and forth to the Caps game).


Rubio: One of the best ways to encourage growth is through our energy industry. Of course solar and wind energy should be a part of our energy portfolio. But God also blessed America with abundant coal, oil and natural gas. Instead of wasting more taxpayer money on so-called "clean energy" companies like Solyndra, let's open up more federal lands for safe and responsible exploration. And let's reform our energy regulations so that they're reasonable and based on common sense.

Pine: Didn't Obama say just about the exact same thing? Particularly with respect to natural gas?


Well...you get the idea.

For whoever has to give the next rebuttal to the SOTU, here is my free political advice to you.

1. Don't rebut. Don't spend your time attacking the President and complaining about politics (like you're butthurt because he calls you a meanie). HAVE A VISION. Don't worry one iota about what the President says, don't even address what you think he'll say. Go directly into your policy vision.

2. Be optimistic. Be grand. Be Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton in your affect and speechwriting. Take listeners on a wonderful oratorical ride to the future of America and tell them how we'll all get there...together.

3. Preach compromise and working together. Here's specifics on Obama last night ("we know nobody's going to get 100% of what they want. But the American people want us to work together"). The traditional Republican line: ("Mr. President work with us to solve the problems...etc, etc). In practice, and the American people have caught on to this, that's code for: "The Republican position is what you have to start from, Mr. President." For better or worse (and I think it's worse), the American public wants to see real compromise. The Republicans don't do a good job of articulating that same desire in their wording -- *and don't get deserved credit even when they do compromise, which they have, on any number of things*.

4. Staging is important. I have a personal friend who used to staff former California Governor Schwarzenegger. We were talking about that water bottle last night on FB. He was nuts of the lack of staff acumen for Senator Rubio. It's okay to take a sip of water, but set it up. Have the initial video longshot show that there's a small table next to him with a tasteful water pitcher and a full glass (not Poland Springs bottle). That way, the audience knows it's coming if needs a sip. Again, nothing wrong with sipping water to wet your whistle. Having to reach way out into the next county for a bottle of Poland Springs...that's bad.

5. Speechwriting consistency is a good thing. Look, if you hate government, I'm not going to say you're objectively wrong...everyone has an opinion and political philosophy. But you shouldn't really then spend lots of time talking about how YOU benefited from the government via student loans. Instead, find a human story about a constituent who made it 100% without government help but pulled himself up by his bootstraps. (Heck, be daring and break the mold and have him on set and even script him for a few words about his story. That would be compelling -- and you can sneak a sip of water at the same time).

Ultimately, it's too hard to rebut the President in a quiet studio with none of the fanfare involved. So don't fight that fight. Make your "rebuttal" a speech and vision of your own terms. Make it grand and optimistic. You, the rebutter, will be more effective that way.

My dos centavos,

Pine


Good advice Pine. The lunge for water was the best part though (at least for me when I was able to stop laughing).
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Post#1043 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:50 am by montestewart

pineappleheadindc wrote:I feel bad for Rubio -- or anyone who has to give the rebuttal to the SOTU. They're never delivered exactly right. Part of it is athmospherics, part of it is because you have to write it before the SOTU and guess what the President is saying. That last thing ensures that at some point, you're "rebutting" something that the President didn't say at all and not addressing something he did say that you really want to get in on.

Specifics:

Rubio: But President Obama? He believes it's the cause of our problems. That the economic downturn happened because our government didn't tax enough, spend enough and control enough. And, therefore, as you heard tonight, his solution to virtually every problem we face is for Washington to tax more, borrow more and spend more.

Pine: I read the entire Obama transcript and saw none of this.


Rubio: And tonight, he even criticized us for refusing to raise taxes to delay military cuts – cuts that were his idea in the first place.

Pine: I must have missed this part of the SOTU speech. (Disclosure: I was jumping back and forth to the Caps game).


Rubio: One of the best ways to encourage growth is through our energy industry. Of course solar and wind energy should be a part of our energy portfolio. But God also blessed America with abundant coal, oil and natural gas. Instead of wasting more taxpayer money on so-called "clean energy" companies like Solyndra, let's open up more federal lands for safe and responsible exploration. And let's reform our energy regulations so that they're reasonable and based on common sense.

Pine: Didn't Obama say just about the exact same thing? Particularly with respect to natural gas?


Well...you get the idea.

For whoever has to give the next rebuttal to the SOTU, here is my free political advice to you.

1. Don't rebut. Don't spend your time attacking the President and complaining about politics (like you're butthurt because he calls you a meanie). HAVE A VISION. Don't worry one iota about what the President says, don't even address what you think he'll say. Go directly into your policy vision.

2. Be optimistic. Be grand. Be Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton in your affect and speechwriting. Take listeners on a wonderful oratorical ride to the future of America and tell them how we'll all get there...together.

3. Preach compromise and working together. Here's specifics on Obama last night ("we know nobody's going to get 100% of what they want. But the American people want us to work together"). The traditional Republican line: ("Mr. President work with us to solve the problems...etc, etc). In practice, and the American people have caught on to this, that's code for: "The Republican position is what you have to start from, Mr. President." For better or worse (and I think it's worse), the American public wants to see real compromise. The Republicans don't do a good job of articulating that same desire in their wording -- *and don't get deserved credit even when they do compromise, which they have, on any number of things*.

4. Staging is important. I have a personal friend who used to staff former California Governor Schwarzenegger. We were talking about that water bottle last night on FB. He was nuts of the lack of staff acumen for Senator Rubio. It's okay to take a sip of water, but set it up. Have the initial video longshot show that there's a small table next to him with a tasteful water pitcher and a full glass (not Poland Springs bottle). That way, the audience knows it's coming if needs a sip. Again, nothing wrong with sipping water to wet your whistle. Having to reach way out into the next county for a bottle of Poland Springs...that's bad.

5. Speechwriting consistency is a good thing. Look, if you hate government, I'm not going to say you're objectively wrong...everyone has an opinion and political philosophy. But you shouldn't really then spend lots of time talking about how YOU benefited from the government via student loans. Instead, find a human story about a constituent who made it 100% without government help but pulled himself up by his bootstraps. (Heck, be daring and break the mold and have him on set and even script him for a few words about his story. That would be compelling -- and you can sneak a sip of water at the same time).

Ultimately, it's too hard to rebut the President in a quiet studio with none of the fanfare involved. So don't fight that fight. Make your "rebuttal" a speech and vision of your own terms. Make it grand and optimistic. You, the rebutter, will be more effective that way.

My dos centavos,

Pine

Are you in political consulting? Maybe you should be.
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Post#1044 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:24 pm by hands11

Zonkerbl wrote:The desire to view the world in exclusively black and white shades is very American. Just because they're wrong on just about everything doesn't mean there won't be enormous demand for Fox News for years to come. So, not quite sure what the guardian is trying to say here.

Yes, the Republicans lost, yes they are showing no signs of adjusting their ideology in the wake of the loss.

Means nothing!

Karl Rove won the 2000 and 2004 election because he was able to target a large number of radical right wing thinkers with a very focused set of issues. He motivated this group to come out in unusually high numbers, which allowed the Republican party to win with a candidate who was very far to the right of the average populace.

So that's their strategy. Given how close they came to winning with exactly the same strategy with an even weaker candidate than W, why would they change?


They will start to change if they get hammered in the midterms. Maybe. They still believe that in a smaller turnout mid term election that they can get their people out more then the Dems can.

We will see. The Obama machine will not make the same mistake they did last time. Besides, Obama will be wrapping up the War in Afghanistan just around the mid terms so he will have that issue. And, either the do the Dream Act which gets Dems out or they don't which gets Dems out.

Obama is not staying home anymore. He is out there working the public and just going right over and around the house Rs.

So the Rs will only change their marketing message for now, not their policies. At least not until they get their butts kicks again, in which case they will lose control of all three branches. They may change then, but maybe not. They might just sit back and wait for an economic downturn cycle to hit and then try to pin it on the Dems in power. Worked for GWB and that was after a great economic run under Clinton where we were actually paying down the national debt.

There is a sucker born every day. Oh to think if there had never had a GWB presidency. :banghead:





Will Ferell - You're Welcome America - A final Night with George W. Bush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... U-Kxc&NR=1
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Post#1045 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:38 pm by hands11

To funny. Some are already calling it.

Rubio's Watergate





That is some funny stuff lol

He was spewing so much BS I'm surprised he didn't pause for a dump.
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Post#1046 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:10 am by hands11

So here we go again. More self inflicted kicks to the nuts on the way. So the Rs are just going to sit on their hands and do nothing while the sequester kicks in an we head into a recession. Then shut down the government. Then hold the country hostage over the debt ceiling again. All because they think they will be able to pin the results on the Dems so it helps them get elected during the midterms ? WOW.

This country just doesn't stand a chance as long Rs control the house with Boner as speaker and Alien man
heading the Rs in the Senate.

Look like we are going to have to suffer through this until the mid terms when the Dem beat enough of these remaining anti government non legislation Rs so they can gain control of the house. It won't be easy with the gerrymandering and voting restrictions the Rs have employed but the Rs are making it easier by the day.

What a disaster the Rs have been to this country since the Bush election cycle. Actually it started well before that but since Bush it has been really really bad. Amazing that boob was actually President for 8 years.

- 3 Trillion Dollar Iraq War based on lies. Manufactured crisis. Pre-emptive war of choice ignoring the facts.
- Bank failure and economic collapse based on their anti fact back economic idea. Trickle down.
- Lower credit rating. Manufactured crisis based on the debt limit.

So whats the total damage on that economic collapse at now ? 6-7 Trillion ?

None of this had to happen you know. We did this to ourselves. We were on pretty solid ground when Clinton handed over the keys. Not perfect but way way way better then now.

And the list goes on and on.

Hey, at least their leaders have made a lot of money selling book and getting speaker fees. And they did get pretty close to their dream of taking over the country and installing their version of the Taliban.

I guess it could be worse. McCain could be president with Palin as VP :o After 8 years of Bush, they would have cemented this country as going plum loco.

This party is a complete joke. They are not interested at all in actually governing. They don't even believe in government or science or facts, so how are they going to actually make it work ? At least people have started to see them for what they really are. They have been a complete disaster and we have no one to blame but our collective selfs because we allowed them to get into office to begin with. Such is the way of a democracy. The people can get fooled into electing the wrong people when scared enough. If the country has enough backward thinking non science religious zealots and enough people are scared, they will elect backward thinking non science religious zealots into office.

So sad things went so wrong.
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Post#1047 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:10 pm by popper

hands11 wrote:So here we go again. More self inflicted kicks to the nuts on the way. So the Rs are just going to sit on their hands and do nothing while the sequester kicks in an we head into a recession. Then shut down the government. Then hold the country hostage over the debt ceiling again. All because they think they will be able to pin the results on the Dems so it helps them get elected during the midterms ? WOW.

This country just doesn't stand a chance as long Rs control the house with Boner as speaker and Alien man
heading the Rs in the Senate.

Look like we are going to have to suffer through this until the mid terms when the Dem beat enough of these remaining anti government non legislation Rs so they can gain control of the house. It won't be easy with the gerrymandering and voting restrictions the Rs have employed but the Rs are making it easier by the day.

What a disaster the Rs have been to this country since the Bush election cycle. Actually it started well before that but since Bush it has been really really bad. Amazing that boob was actually President for 8 years.

- 3 Trillion Dollar Iraq War based on lies. Manufactured crisis. Pre-emptive war of choice ignoring the facts.
- Bank failure and economic collapse based on their anti fact back economic idea. Trickle down.
- Lower credit rating. Manufactured crisis based on the debt limit.

So whats the total damage on that economic collapse at now ? 6-7 Trillion ?

None of this had to happen you know. We did this to ourselves. We were on pretty solid ground when Clinton handed over the keys. Not perfect but way way way better then now.

And the list goes on and on.

Hey, at least their leaders have made a lot of money selling book and getting speaker fees. And they did get pretty close to their dream of taking over the country and installing their version of the Taliban.

I guess it could be worse. McCain could be president with Palin as VP :o After 8 years of Bush, they would have cemented this country as going plum loco.

This party is a complete joke. They are not interested at all in actually governing. They don't even believe in government or science or facts, so how are they going to actually make it work ? At least people have started to see them for what they really are. They have been a complete disaster and we have no one to blame but our collective selfs because we allowed them to get into office to begin with. Such is the way of a democracy. The people can get fooled into electing the wrong people when scared enough. If the country has enough backward thinking non science religious zealots and enough people are scared, they will elect backward thinking non science religious zealots into office.

So sad things went so wrong.


Hands - I'm sure you are aware that the Fed is pumping $85 Billion a month into the economy. In addition, we are borrowing another $80 Billion a month and have been doing that or more for the last 4 years. The combined stimulus is enormous and our debt stands at $16 Trillion and growing. If the economy can't perform with this world record, prolonged stimulus, then we need to change course. People are suffering from the effects of record increases in the price of food and gas. Unemployment levels are ridiculous and claims for food stamps and disability are skyrocketing. I'm not sure who you expect to convince that Dems are on the right track in managing the economy when massive evidence clearly indicates they are not. Just my opinion of course.
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Post#1048 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:12 pm by nate33

hands11 wrote:So here we go again. More self inflicted kicks to the nuts on the way. So the Rs are just going to sit on their hands and do nothing while the sequester kicks in an we head into a recession. Then shut down the government. Then hold the country hostage over the debt ceiling again. All because they think they will be able to pin the results on the Dems so it helps them get elected during the midterms ? WOW.

This country just doesn't stand a chance as long Rs control the house with Boner as speaker and Alien man
heading the Rs in the Senate.

Look like we are going to have to suffer through this until the mid terms when the Dem beat enough of these remaining anti government non legislation Rs so they can gain control of the house. It won't be easy with the gerrymandering and voting restrictions the Rs have employed but the Rs are making it easier by the day.

What a disaster the Rs have been to this country since the Bush election cycle. Actually it started well before that but since Bush it has been really really bad. Amazing that boob was actually President for 8 years.

- 3 Trillion Dollar Iraq War based on lies. Manufactured crisis. Pre-emptive war of choice ignoring the facts.
- Bank failure and economic collapse based on their anti fact back economic idea. Trickle down.
- Lower credit rating. Manufactured crisis based on the debt limit.

So whats the total damage on that economic collapse at now ? 6-7 Trillion ?

None of this had to happen you know. We did this to ourselves. We were on pretty solid ground when Clinton handed over the keys. Not perfect but way way way better then now.

And the list goes on and on.

Hey, at least their leaders have made a lot of money selling book and getting speaker fees. And they did get pretty close to their dream of taking over the country and installing their version of the Taliban.

I guess it could be worse. McCain could be president with Palin as VP :o After 8 years of Bush, they would have cemented this country as going plum loco.

This party is a complete joke. They are not interested at all in actually governing. They don't even believe in government or science or facts, so how are they going to actually make it work ? At least people have started to see them for what they really are. They have been a complete disaster and we have no one to blame but our collective selfs because we allowed them to get into office to begin with. Such is the way of a democracy. The people can get fooled into electing the wrong people when scared enough. If the country has enough backward thinking non science religious zealots and enough people are scared, they will elect backward thinking non science religious zealots into office.

So sad things went so wrong.

Thanks for this well thought out and insightful commentary. You have totally changed my opinion on politics.
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Post#1049 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:41 pm by hands11

popper wrote:
hands11 wrote:So here we go again. More self inflicted kicks to the nuts on the way. So the Rs are just going to sit on their hands and do nothing while the sequester kicks in an we head into a recession. Then shut down the government. Then hold the country hostage over the debt ceiling again. All because they think they will be able to pin the results on the Dems so it helps them get elected during the midterms ? WOW.

This country just doesn't stand a chance as long Rs control the house with Boner as speaker and Alien man
heading the Rs in the Senate.

Look like we are going to have to suffer through this until the mid terms when the Dem beat enough of these remaining anti government non legislation Rs so they can gain control of the house. It won't be easy with the gerrymandering and voting restrictions the Rs have employed but the Rs are making it easier by the day.

What a disaster the Rs have been to this country since the Bush election cycle. Actually it started well before that but since Bush it has been really really bad. Amazing that boob was actually President for 8 years.

- 3 Trillion Dollar Iraq War based on lies. Manufactured crisis. Pre-emptive war of choice ignoring the facts.
- Bank failure and economic collapse based on their anti fact back economic idea. Trickle down.
- Lower credit rating. Manufactured crisis based on the debt limit.

So whats the total damage on that economic collapse at now ? 6-7 Trillion ?

None of this had to happen you know. We did this to ourselves. We were on pretty solid ground when Clinton handed over the keys. Not perfect but way way way better then now.

And the list goes on and on.

Hey, at least their leaders have made a lot of money selling book and getting speaker fees. And they did get pretty close to their dream of taking over the country and installing their version of the Taliban.

I guess it could be worse. McCain could be president with Palin as VP :o After 8 years of Bush, they would have cemented this country as going plum loco.

This party is a complete joke. They are not interested at all in actually governing. They don't even believe in government or science or facts, so how are they going to actually make it work ? At least people have started to see them for what they really are. They have been a complete disaster and we have no one to blame but our collective selfs because we allowed them to get into office to begin with. Such is the way of a democracy. The people can get fooled into electing the wrong people when scared enough. If the country has enough backward thinking non science religious zealots and enough people are scared, they will elect backward thinking non science religious zealots into office.

So sad things went so wrong.


Hands - I'm sure you are aware that the Fed is pumping $85 Billion a month into the economy. In addition, we are borrowing another $80 Billion a month and have been doing that or more for the last 4 years. The combined stimulus is enormous and our debt stands at $16 Trillion and growing. If the economy can't perform with this world record, prolonged stimulus, then we need to change course. People are suffering from the effects of record increases in the price of food and gas. Unemployment levels are ridiculous and claims for food stamps and disability are skyrocketing. I'm not sure who you expect to convince that Dems are on the right track in managing the economy when massive evidence clearly indicates they are not. Just my opinion of course.


So the answer is to allow the self made time bomb to happen that was put in place to be so distasteful that it would force them to do something that made sense before that happened ? How is another recession and more unemployment going to help ?

You think people are suffering now, just wait.

But the R strategy is most likely this. Let all the cuts kick in and then work a deal after. First up will be to increase the military spending that got cut. The Dems will counter with increased support other important programs that got cut. Both sides will kick and scream and end up with a deal that with less cuts then the sequester which is what they could be negotiating right now. Only difference is the economy will get a good kick in the balls first because they are unable to do anything per-emptive because they have to light the house on fire first.

This is just not a good way to govern.
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Post#1050 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:14 pm by popper

Hands - Agree it is not a good way to govern but this is what the voters decided. The economy shrank last quarter anyway (even with record stimulus) so I doubt this will be anything more than another bump in the road. Each party is running blocking maneuvers trying to impede the progress of their opponent. We will probably have to wait until 2014 elections for things to change one way or another.
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Post#1051 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:35 pm by hands11

popper wrote:Hands - Agree it is not a good way to govern but this is what the voters decided. The economy shrank last quarter anyway (even with record stimulus) so I doubt this will be anything more than another bump in the road. Each party is running blocking maneuvers trying to impede the progress of their opponent. We will probably have to wait until 2014 elections for things to change one way or another.


God help us.
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Post#1052 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:24 am by popper

hands11 wrote:
popper wrote:Hands - Agree it is not a good way to govern but this is what the voters decided. The economy shrank last quarter anyway (even with record stimulus) so I doubt this will be anything more than another bump in the road. Each party is running blocking maneuvers trying to impede the progress of their opponent. We will probably have to wait until 2014 elections for things to change one way or another.


God help us.


He would probably like to but Dems voted him out of the platform at their last convention.
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Post#1053 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:11 pm by hands11

popper wrote:
hands11 wrote:
popper wrote:Hands - Agree it is not a good way to govern but this is what the voters decided. The economy shrank last quarter anyway (even with record stimulus) so I doubt this will be anything more than another bump in the road. Each party is running blocking maneuvers trying to impede the progress of their opponent. We will probably have to wait until 2014 elections for things to change one way or another.


God help us.


He would probably like to but Dems voted him out of the platform at their last convention.


Yet they keep all the .... What would Jesus do stuff in.

More then I can say for the Rs who do the opposite.

Guess I should have said, Jesus help us.
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Post#1054 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:56 pm by hands11

http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/201 ... g_aga.html

http://www.propublica.org/article/how-b ... eal-fix-it

The 2012 deficit was actually the smallest one since 2008.

As Binyamin Appelbaum noted in The New York Times, the federal government has run a deficit in 45 of the last 50 years. (The exceptions were 1969 and 1998 through 2001.) The financial crisis in 2008, however, caused the deficit to skyrocket, as tax revenues fell because of the slump in incomes and production, and government spending on the stimulus and safety net measures such as unemployment insurance shot up. The deficit for the 2008 fiscal year was $455 billion. In 2009, it surged to more than $1.4 trillion.

Since then, the deficit has been falling, albeit very slowly. The government took in 6.4 percent more in taxes in 2012 than in 2011, as the economy improved a bit and several tax breaks expired. And it spent less on Medicaid, unemployment insurance and the continuing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

At least we're not Greece. How much longer can we keep borrowing?

That's a tough one. Some commentators — including Paul Krugman, the Nobel-winning economist and columnist for The New York Times — have argued that our current deficits are mostly a product of the sluggish economy.

---

So with growth of GDP playing such an important role in allowing the Debt to GDP to continue to drop, who thinks the sequester is going to save us a dime vs increasing the Debt to GDP ?

Currently, debt to gdp is dropping. Some economists saying anything over 90% adds additional drag on the economy so I would think our main goal right now should be getting it under that.

Debt will always go up. That isn't the issue. The issue is when it is growing faster as a percent than the GDP is growing. Is spending really our biggest issue right now or is it jobs and demand ? Do we need to get the cars engine running more smoothy first so it can run on its own or should we drain the tank of gas and pull off the jumper cables ?

Will the sequester increase debt to gdp or decrease it ?
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Post#1055 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:50 pm by pineappleheadindc

.

It's almost sequester time. At this stage in the game, there's no doubt that we'll at least be testing the waters of sequestration cuts. How long we're there is anyone's guess.

That we're hitting sequestration is a complete and total example of nobody talking to each other. And, though you may think this is ideological I'm trying to be objective, I blame the conservative media and the Teahadists. Republicans are actually afraid to do business with President Obama. They'll get primaried. Hell, CPAC didn't invite Chris Christie - a guy with a totally conservative policy record in NJ (attacked teachers unions, pro-life, not a real bleeding heart on illegal immigration)....that's a BLUE state. And he's got a public approval record in that blue state that's higher than Jesus. But work with the President for natural disaster relief of your own people and you're a RINO. And, you're supporting a marxist, socialist, Kenyan, who was only elected thanks to a (nonexistant) ACORN.

Point is, sequestration is stupid because the cuts don't come where they should (excepting some cuts to Defense, and the meat axe approach there is stupid). By exempting the vast majority of the Federal budget (social welfare programs), Congress missed the mark completely. And I thought Republicans WANTED to work on the impending deficit caused by these programs.

In his sequester replacement plan available on the White House website, one of the President's proposals is something that liberals hate. Chained CPI. In a normal world, even if you disagreed with everything else, you'd take that (Republicans), give him something small for his side, then propose the next thing (in concert with chained CPI)....raising the retirement age? means testing? Whatever. You'd chip away at the problem together, step-by-step, until you've made progress. Can't get all the way there in terms of deficit reduction? Not probs, you lock in what you have now then wait for the next opportunity to do more together.

Step by step, back and forth, eating the elephant one bite at a time. THAT'S the way to solve difficult problems needing collaborative response.

But, if you can't even get aid from the President for people flooded out of their homes and living in tents in wintertime without being attacked from your side, how are you going to work with the President on big things?

My dos centavos.
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Post#1056 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:56 pm by nate33

pine, I agree with all you said about the parties being unwilling to compromise. But I think you are underrating the anger the GOP base has with Christie and the way he boosted Obama's campaign right before the election. There was no need for Christie to have a photo op with Obama at that time. It totally undermined the GOP tactically in a close election.

All that said, I'd rather have Christie at the table helping with budget negotiations than just about anybody else. That guy knows how to make cuts to government and then communicate to the voters why the cuts are necessary.
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Post#1057 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:00 pm by pineappleheadindc

nate33 wrote:pine, I agree with all you said about the parties being unwilling to compromise. But I think you are underrating the anger the GOP base has with Christie and the way he boosted Obama's campaign right before the election. There was no need for Christie to have a photo op with Obama at that time. It totally undermined the GOP tactically in a close election.

All that said, I'd rather have Christie at the table helping with budget negotiations than just about anybody else. That guy knows how to make cuts to government and then communicate to the voters why the cuts are necessary.



Nate, fair point. I really DID forget completely about how the base was mad at Christie during election season. I didn't account for residual anger at all.

Republicans have a good model in Christie. Whether they take the model is, IMO, an open question for now.
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Post#1058 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:03 pm by dobrojim

I thought Boehner got 98% of what he wanted. Now he's acting like
he thinks this is horrible.

Ryan and the Mittster ran on a platform of closing loopholes
and reform (supposedly) to generate > revenues.

As per segment on Maddox, reducing spending is popular until
you actually say what it is you propose to reduce spending on.
The most popular thing (to reduce) is foreign aid which amounts to < 1% of
of the budget. Few, if any, generally described areas of the budget garner
> 50% approval in polling for spending cuts.

Biggest problem in Washington isn't 'in' Washington. It's gerrymandering.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity
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Post#1059 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:08 pm by Severn Hoos

pine, thank you for posting - you are the glimmer of hope that keeps me (occasionally) still checking in to this thread. That said, two points, by way of suggestion/request:

1. If you start a sentence with "though you may think this is ideological I'm trying to be objective", you probably shouldn't end it with a term like "Teahadist." Just saying, it kinda undercuts the first statement. I used to hate it when Rush Limbaugh used the term "Feminazis" for a number of reasons, but the two most prominent are that it minimizes the evil of actual Nazis, and in the end it just undermined his own position. I'm not saying I'm offended by the term, just that by using it you are telegraphing that anyone who is even sympathetic to the very real concerns raised by the Tea Party is not worthy of consideration.

2. I prefer precision about "cuts" versus "reduced rates of increased spending". I can't speak to the specifics of the current situation, but often what is labeled as a "cut" is actually a reduction from, say a 10% year-over-year increase to a 5% increase.

That said, I do agree with you about the unwillingness to compromise (which, naturally, I believe goes both ways). My preferred candidate in 2012 would have been Mitch Daniels, who got in trouble for not "toeing the line" for the conservative purists. Unfortunately, given the incentives in place, I don't see much changing in the near future...
"A society that puts equality - in the sense of equality of outcome - ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom. The use of force to achieve equality will destroy freedom" Milton Friedman, Free to Choose
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Post#1060 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:12 pm by pineappleheadindc

Severn Hoos wrote:pine, thank you for posting - you are the glimmer of hope that keeps me (occasionally) still checking in to this thread. That said, two points, by way of suggestion/request:

1. If you start a sentence with "though you may think this is ideological I'm trying to be objective", you probably shouldn't end it with a term like "Teahadist." Just saying, it kinda undercuts the first statement. I used to hate it when Rush Limbaugh used the term "Feminazis" for a number of reasons, but the two most prominent are that it minimizes the evil of actual Nazis, and in the end it just undermined his own position. I'm not saying I'm offended by the term, just that by using it you are telegraphing that anyone who is even sympathetic to the very real concerns raised by the Tea Party is not worthy of consideration.

2. I prefer precision about "cuts" versus "reduced rates of increased spending". I can't speak to the specifics of the current situation, but often what is labeled as a "cut" is actually a reduction from, say a 10% year-over-year increase to a 5% increase.

That said, I do agree with you about the unwillingness to compromise (which, naturally, I believe goes both ways). My preferred candidate in 2012 would have been Mitch Daniels, who got in trouble for not "toeing the line" for the conservative purists. Unfortunately, given the incentives in place, I don't see much changing in the near future...


LOL -- completely fair points to which I yield to you, Severn!

:-)
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