Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

[dobrojim]

So does the NRA represent gun owners or gun manufacturers?

It appears from their website it is both.

But one might wonder which part they get the lion's share of their dollars from.
I would think that would be a better indicator of who has their ear.

[popper]

My take on the gun issue can be broken down into four categories. I think we would be wise to tailor solutions to meet these specific challenges. Otherwise, I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people when it becomes apparent that an assault weapons ban and/or a limit to magazine capacity did not have the desired effect. Like most problems of this nature, the simple, quick and easy solution is usually ineffective. Politicians love them because it gives voters a false sense of security and makes it appear that the pol is fighting the good fight.

1. Criminal Use

2. Accidental Shootings

3. Mass Homicides

4. Suicides and Crimes of Passion

[dandridge 10]

So does the NRA represent gun owners or gun manufacturers?

It appears from their website it is both.

But one might wonder which part they get the lion's share of their dollars from.
I would think that would be a better indicator of who has their ear.

I am sure the gun retailers and dealers give most of the money. However, there are a lot of hunters and sportsman in the US that contribute a lot too. If these people were not happy with NRA's agenda, they would stop paying dues. I haven't seen any facts suggesting that they are.

[popper]

My take on the gun issue can be broken down into four categories. I think we would be wise to tailor solutions to meet these specific challenges. Otherwise, I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people when it becomes apparent that an assault weapons ban and/or a limit to magazine capacity did not have the desired effect. Like most problems of this nature, the simple, quick and easy solution is usually ineffective. Politicians love them because it gives voters a false sense of security and makes it appear that the pol is fighting the good fight.

1. Criminal Use

2. Accidental Shootings

3. Mass Homicides

4. Suicides and Crimes of Passion

Edit - In the case of #3 above, one can think of 100 ways to commit mass murder without use of a firearm.

[dandridge 10]

My take on the gun issue can be broken down into four categories. I think we would be wise to tailor solutions to meet these specific challenges. Otherwise, I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people when it becomes apparent that an assault weapons ban and/or a limit to magazine capacity did not have the desired effect. Like most problems of this nature, the simple, quick and easy solution is usually ineffective. Politicians love them because it gives voters a false sense of security and makes it appear that the pol is fighting the good fight.

1. Criminal Use

2. Accidental Shootings

3. Mass Homicides

4. Suicides and Crimes of Passion

Edit - In the case of #3 above, one can think of 100 ways to commit mass murder without use of a firearm.

Yeah, but its much easier with guns. As I said, I don't know why people focus on one means to "solve" the problem. Gun control is just one measure out of many that can be implemented. Just because one won't solve it, doesn't mean you shouldn't take a mutli-hurdle approach.

[hands11]

Listening live to the presser by wayne la-peirre (sp?) of the NRA.

All I can say is what a POS this guy is. Gun violence has nothing
to do with guns but everything to do with things other than guns.
And the solution is ....you got it, more guns.

just sickening. Hard not to wish for a special place in hell
for the likes of this guy.

Mo Money. Mo Money. Maximize Profits by any means neccesary. Gotta make mo money.

[hands11]

So does the NRA represent gun owners or gun manufacturers?

Hell yeah they represent gun manufacturers.

[hands11]

My take on the gun issue can be broken down into four categories. I think we would be wise to tailor solutions to meet these specific challenges. Otherwise, I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people when it becomes apparent that an assault weapons ban and/or a limit to magazine capacity did not have the desired effect. Like most problems of this nature, the simple, quick and easy solution is usually ineffective. Politicians love them because it gives voters a false sense of security and makes it appear that the pol is fighting the good fight.

1. Criminal Use

2. Accidental Shootings

3. Mass Homicides

4. Suicides and Crimes of Passion

Edit - In the case of #3 above, one can think of 100 ways to commit mass murder without use of a firearm.

Got any stats on what is the most commonly used method ?

[Zonkerbl]

My take on the gun issue can be broken down into four categories. I think we would be wise to tailor solutions to meet these specific challenges. Otherwise, I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed people when it becomes apparent that an assault weapons ban and/or a limit to magazine capacity did not have the desired effect. Like most problems of this nature, the simple, quick and easy solution is usually ineffective. Politicians love them because it gives voters a false sense of security and makes it appear that the pol is fighting the good fight.

1. Criminal Use

2. Accidental Shootings

3. Mass Homicides

4. Suicides and Crimes of Passion

Edit - In the case of #3 above, one can think of 100 ways to commit mass murder without use of a firearm.

Yeah, but its much easier with guns. As I said, I don't know why people focus on one means to "solve" the problem. Gun control is just one measure out of many that can be implemented. Just because one won't solve it, doesn't mean you shouldn't take a mutli-hurdle approach.

Well that's crap. There may be other things that will help, but banning guns will eliminate 80% of the problem. I'm all about the slippery slope. Ban automatic weapons. Ban weapon clips. Don't let criminals buy guns. Don't let anyone who has ever had any domestic violence issue buy a gun. Don't let anyone with KIDS buy a HANDGUN, EVER. You wanna defend your family? Move to the suburbs.

YOU KNOW WHAT? JUST BAN THEM ALL.

[dandridge 10]

What's crap? I agree with you on gun control. I am just saying there are other things that need to be done as well. I'm sorry to break it to you, but people will always be able to get guns. That's why you have to do other things, like treat mental illness, increase security, etc.

[Zonkerbl]

What's crap? I agree with you on gun control. I am just saying there are other things that need to be done as well. I'm sorry to break it to you, but people will always be able to get guns. That's why you have to do other things, like treat mental illness, increase security, etc.

They won't be able to get guns if we ban them utterly. And it's stupid to address 20% of the problem and ignore the solution that addresses 80% of it.

That's what's wrong with the conversation in this country. We've become so brainwashed by the NRA that we think the only solutions are half measures, nibbling around the edges. There's an obvious solution here -- ban the manufacture of all guns in the United States. Ban the import of all guns. Ban the possession of firearms by any civilian. **** the Constitution -- I'm sick of kids getting shot. I'm sick of hearing gunshots outside my house every weekend. I'm sick of of insane teenage jerks waving guns in my face. SICK SICK SICK!!! Just ban them all, dammit, once and for all.

[dandridge 10]

What's crap? I agree with you on gun control. I am just saying there are other things that need to be done as well. I'm sorry to break it to you, but people will always be able to get guns. That's why you have to do other things, like treat mental illness, increase security, etc.

They won't be able to get guns if we ban them utterly. And it's stupid to address 20% of the problem and ignore the solution that addresses 80% of it.

That's what's wrong with the conversation in this country. We've become so brainwashed by the NRA that we think the only solutions are half measures, nibbling around the edges. There's an obvious solution here -- ban the manufacture of all guns in the United States. Ban the import of all guns. Ban the possession of firearms by any civilian. **** the Constitution -- I'm sick of kids getting shot. I'm sick of hearing gunshots outside my house every weekend. I'm sick of of insane teenage jerks waving guns in my face. SICK SICK SICK!!! Just ban them all, dammit, once and for all.

I am fine with banning all guns. I have no use for them. However, you are living in a fantasy world if you think that this alone will fix the problem. We once banned alchohol? How'd that turn out? We now ban drugs? They are still available. Again, if we ban all guns, people will still find a way to get them....that is why you can't do that alone.

[hands11]

I was listening to a historian who just released a book on Guns. It was a really interesting interview. They went back to the forming of the constitution and where the 2nd Amendment came from and what was going on at the time. The interviewer was very knowledgeable as well and they went back and forth about the history and legislation that changed things. What is interesting is just how much has changed so recently via the Supreme Court in 2008. What is even more interesting is that DC was involved in this because of their gun band. The very same gun band that got Gil in trouble.

To the best of my recollection, here is the summary. Again, this is just to the best of my recollection so I may get some parts wrong so lets not go overboard if something here isn't right.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

We had Militias. If you were an able bodied male, you were required to have a gun because at some point, you would be call on to defend your state or your country. If you didn't have one, one would be assigned to you and they would actually make you pay for it. All guns were registered because they needed to know what assets they had for defense reasons. This goes to the language "well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State" We were the army.

The Continental Army utilized these people. This is very similar to what we have today in our National Guards. The National Guard is that well regulated Malia today. The National Guard has a dual purpose. They are under the control of the state via the Governor, but they can also be called up to active duty by the Federal Government. Though today, the Federal role is supposed to be covered mainly by the Reserves, not the National Guard.

Put in the context of the time, we were a brand new country that was uniting. We had a two things they were trying to do. They were balancing states right and federal power and they were forming the military. This wasn't about an individuals right to have a gun. It was about forming Militias for state and federal defenses. Interestingly enough, as time went on, the NRA was a part of this machine. They helped train people to shoot more accurately. Do a search on the history of the NRA and who started it. They used to even advocated for gun control.

A few other things they covered that I found interesting. It was illegal to conceal a weapon. Not only was it illegal, but people saw that as cowardly. Also, it was regular practice to not allow guns once you were in a town. You have to check your gun as you entered the population center. We have all seen this played out in various westerns. Some Sheriff comes up to some yahoos and say, I'm going to need you to give me your guns boys. You can gettm back when you leave town. And of course, there was a racial element to all this.

So in Summary:
Guns were registered to people as part of forming the state and federal armed forces i.e. the Militia.
You were not allowed to conceal them.
You were not allowed to have them in population centers

So if this was the way things were, I am curious as to how things would play out for people that lived in town that wanted to go hunting. Obviously more people hunted for food back then. So where would a town person keep their gun until they wanted to exit the town and go hunting ? Also, clearly towns where smaller and many more people lived outside of them so all this must have been much easier to regulate.

Here are some link to stuff you should read.

Constitutional History. Seems it was only in 2008 that things really changed. And in 5-4 decisions. A reminder that who get elected in this country makes a big difference because of who they send to the Supreme Court. The way DC had it was very constitution up until 2008 and that was consistent with how things had been in town and city centers.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-wink ... 56035.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ns/308608/

What should be done ?
All guns should be registered.
You should need a license to own one and that licensing should require testing both written and physical.
They should close down these gun shows as a place to purchase gun.
You should not be able to carry an unconcealed weapon.
You should not be able to own a military style weapon unless you are part of the military
You should have to carry liability insurance if you own a gun. Just like a car.
Purchasing of ammo should be more regulated.
Private guns sales have to be registered sales. You sell one, you better make sure it is transferred or your name is still on it. You register the sale with the state, they then know who has it.

As for an military style gun assault rifle ban. Ban the purchase of them then do something like this. Allow people to own them if they have them, but make it illegal to personally own the ammo or clips over a certain size. Make the law very harsh if people do and give a time period to turn in all the ammo for these guns. If you want to shoot that gun, go to a gun range and purchase the ammo there. If you are a gun enthusiast, go there to be enthused. Also allow the government to purchase curtain styles of guns if they are something they find useful for practice shooting, etc. You can also sell them to these gun ranges. Loaded Military style guns should be in the hands of our military. We are no longer the regulated Militia. We have the National Guard as that and we have a Federal Military.

Everything should be geared toward safety, training, self protection of your home in rural areas and hunting and sport shooting like at a firing range. Towns and Cities should be able to have gun bans if they want.

Just common sense stuff.

[nate33]

There's an obvious solution here -- ban the manufacture of all guns in the United States. Ban the import of all guns. Ban the possession of firearms by any civilian. **** the Constitution -- I'm sick of kids getting shot. I'm sick of hearing gunshots outside my house every weekend. I'm sick of of insane teenage jerks waving guns in my face. SICK SICK SICK!!! Just ban them all, dammit, once and for all.

Utter sophistry. That's no solution at all. It would make the situation worse. Criminals with guns would be undeterred. Crime would increase everywhere.

[hands11]

http://www.examiner.com/article/cutting ... and-better

Budget cuts the ATF isn't helping.

Shrinking government so it is the size it can be drowned in a bath tub isn't helping.
Electing people that don't even believe in government isn't helping.

First thing we need to do is start electing smart people again. People that understand what the government does and how it works. People that understand the role of governing via the house and senate.

[nate33]

http://www.examiner.com/article/cutting-batfe-s-funding-sounding-better-and-better

Budget cuts the ATF isn't helping.

Shrinking government so it is the size it can be drowned in a bath tub isn't helping.
Electing people that don't even believe in government isn't helping.

First thing we need to do is start electing smart people again. People that understand what the government does and how it works. People that understand the role of governing via the house and senate.

I'm so tired of this inferred notion that the U.S. is becoming a more violent and dangerous place. Cutting the ATF makes sense because violent crime has dropped precipitously in the past two decades. Sandy Hook was the exception, not the rule.

I'm not saying we should do nothing about it, I'm just saying we need a little perspective. This talk about putting a full time security guard in every school in the nation is overkill. It doesn't make sense from a cost benefits perspective. The fact is, schools are extremely safe and have been for a long time. If we want healthy and safe kids, there are much more efficient ways to spend our money.

[DCZards]

Agree that spending limited school funds on armed guards would be the wrong investment. That money would be much better spent on what kids, teachers and schools really need, whether that be free meals for poor kids, increased access to technology, school-based mental health services, professional development for educators or after-school programs for students and their families.

Sounds expensive. It is. But so is ignorance and an under-educated, ill-prepared, unemployed citizenry.

[hands11]

Hell, at this point I would be happy if they just had music and recess again.

[Zonkerbl]

There's an obvious solution here -- ban the manufacture of all guns in the United States. Ban the import of all guns. Ban the possession of firearms by any civilian. **** the Constitution -- I'm sick of kids getting shot. I'm sick of hearing gunshots outside my house every weekend. I'm sick of of insane teenage jerks waving guns in my face. SICK SICK SICK!!! Just ban them all, dammit, once and for all.

Utter sophistry. That's no solution at all. It would make the situation worse. Criminals with guns would be undeterred. Crime would increase everywhere.

Well that's just idiotic. You can't tell me that if there were no guns there would be as much crime as we have today. You can do better than that Nate, shame on you.

[Zonkerbl]

Curious about the relative mortality rates of knife vs. gun attacks.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/FIFC.PDF

This is interesting:
"While the majority of victims of intentional gunshot wounds were black, most victims of unintentional firearm injury and suicide attempts with firearms were white."