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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#41 » by fishercob » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:41 pm

Hardly elegant prose, but thought provoking stuff from Marc Cuban on the election:

I Would Vote For Governor Romney if he was a Democrat

Can you imagine the following conversation from a Democratic candidate Romney with a hypothetical Republican candidate

“Business in the US needs certainty over healthcare costs. With my RomneyCare program instituted across the country big businesses will no longer have to deal with the variability and uncertainty from state to state in healthcare costs and benefits. They will no longer have to face the uncertainty of state and local politicians pushing their agendas that can create annual changes and huge cost increases at the expense of well negotiated and time tested plans like RomneyCare. Ask my Republican opponent which state , other than Massachusetts has been able to get their Healthcare costs and services under control ? It’s not like they all haven’t been trying. Massachusetts is the only state which has been able to create any level of certainty in healthcare costs and services. Which is exactly what businesses want and why we need RomneyCare as a national program. “


As the head honcho at Bain Capital, a private equity firm, Governor Romney made huge profits by borrowing heavily to acquire companies and then operate them with the goal of getting an operating return on capital or selling the companies for a profit. He turned the art of using leverage into an art form. I should add here that I fully understand that Bain was not and is not a slash and burn Private Equity firm. They put people in their acquired companies to try to improve operations rather than just slash costs. But that is not really the issue here. Governor Romney knows how to invest using debt.

The real issue is that rather than saying that he thinks its a horrible idea for the government to invest in companies and that he would not permit it, I really, really would love to see him take the opposite approach and own and crow about the fact that he is a MASTER of USING DEBT.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#42 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:56 pm

I will dismiss him. I'll dismiss him because his policy preferences are clearly those of a liberal and I am not a liberal. He is:

pro-choice
pro-affirmative action, even if it excludes white applicants who are better qualified
pro-amnesty
pro-wealth redistribution: "Americans are looking for more government in their life, not less"

And what's funny is that he supports Obama because of his concerns about Republican neoconism on foreign policy. But Obama started a war in Libya and Obama has kept Guantanamo open. What exactly makes Obama a safer bet on foreign policy?

Powell is free to endorse whomever he chooses. But I see no reason why his decision should sway me in any way.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#43 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:07 pm

nate33 wrote:
barelyawake wrote:"I believe the governor has some very, very strong neocon views that I have real problems with..." -- Colin Powell

Translation: This guy will put Bolton in charge and steer us into oncoming traffic against Iran. Powell's top guy (a Republican) said tonight that he has no doubt that the goal of neocons is to make war with Iran impossible to avoid.

How putting neocons back in control can in any way be considered "fiscally responsible" is beyond me. You want to talk about horror stories? Ask the generals what a war with Iran means in terms of tripling gas prices, insurmountable debt, Russian response (also known as World War 3) and a generation-long depression.

Gotta agree with you here. Mitt's neocon tendencies are what bother me the most. I'm torn between voting for Mitt as the lesser of two evils, or maintaining my integrity and writing in Ron Paul, which would be a waste of a vote. If I didn't live in Ohio, it would be a no-brainer. I'd vote for Paul. But since I live in the only state that matters in this election, I really need to think this through.

Of course, Obama's foreign policy has been almost indistinguishable from neocon policy anyhow. That makes the decision a bit easier for me.


Ron Paul is the one candidate who I consider a man of integrity. I trust him. He is not bought or loyal to special interest groups. He has broad experience in Congress and he served in the military in Vietnam. He has seen what war does and he understands the military industrial complex better than Barack Obama IMO. Paul was a doctor who was not in it for the money. He is truly a public servant and an old school statesman. I think he would have made an honorable president.

Mitt will not. He's going to win, but in time I fear he will become a very divisive leader.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#44 » by Wizardspride » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:30 pm

@CCJ


I suggest you do some more research on some of Dr. Paul's views.

Let's just say they're quite "interesting" to say the least,


And don't get me started on his son. :banghead:
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#45 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:43 pm

Some of the quotes attributed to Paul make him seem like quite the racist. I need to do some research WP. Rand Paul has some way out views that I don't agree with. WP, politics bring me way down. I operate on intuition on candidates.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#46 » by hands11 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:56 pm

nate33 wrote:
barelyawake wrote:"I believe the governor has some very, very strong neocon views that I have real problems with..." -- Colin Powell

Translation: This guy will put Bolton in charge and steer us into oncoming traffic against Iran. Powell's top guy (a Republican) said tonight that he has no doubt that the goal of neocons is to make war with Iran impossible to avoid.

How putting neocons back in control can in any way be considered "fiscally responsible" is beyond me. You want to talk about horror stories? Ask the generals what a war with Iran means in terms of tripling gas prices, insurmountable debt, Russian response (also known as World War 3) and a generation-long depression.

Gotta agree with you here. Mitt's neocon tendencies are what bother me the most. I'm torn between voting for Mitt as the lesser of two evils, or maintaining my integrity and writing in Ron Paul, which would be a waste of a vote. If I didn't live in Ohio, it would be a no-brainer. I'd vote for Paul. But since I live in the only state that matters in this election, I really need to think this through.

Of course, Obama's foreign policy has been almost indistinguishable from neocon policy anyhow. That makes the decision a bit easier for me.


He hasn't preemptively started any 10 year wars with countries that didn't attack us. Shock n Awe ...

Cost 3 Trillion
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#47 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:57 pm

Paul has made no racist comments. At one point, one of the editors of the Ron Paul newsletter included some racist remarks like:

"Racial Violence Will Fill Our Cities" because "mostly black welfare recipients will feel justified in stealing from mostly white 'haves."

and

"I think we can assume that 95 percent of the black men in that city [Washington] are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."

Ron Paul did not write those passages and claims he didn't know about them, though given that his name was on the newsletter, that's a pretty weak defense. Ron Paul himself has never publicly uttered anything that can be construed as racist. I figure, at best, Ron Paul can be chastised for not keeping tighter control on his newsletter. At worst, he may have made the calculated decision that the number of subscribers who may share the racist beliefs outweigh the number who would be so turned off by the comments that they would cancel their subscription. After all, he was appealing to the rugged individualist, mostly rural, survivalist subset, not the politically correct, urbane intelligentsia. Also, in the 80's, political correctness was not what it is today.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#48 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:05 pm

hands11 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
barelyawake wrote:"I believe the governor has some very, very strong neocon views that I have real problems with..." -- Colin Powell

Translation: This guy will put Bolton in charge and steer us into oncoming traffic against Iran. Powell's top guy (a Republican) said tonight that he has no doubt that the goal of neocons is to make war with Iran impossible to avoid.

How putting neocons back in control can in any way be considered "fiscally responsible" is beyond me. You want to talk about horror stories? Ask the generals what a war with Iran means in terms of tripling gas prices, insurmountable debt, Russian response (also known as World War 3) and a generation-long depression.

Gotta agree with you here. Mitt's neocon tendencies are what bother me the most. I'm torn between voting for Mitt as the lesser of two evils, or maintaining my integrity and writing in Ron Paul, which would be a waste of a vote. If I didn't live in Ohio, it would be a no-brainer. I'd vote for Paul. But since I live in the only state that matters in this election, I really need to think this through.

Of course, Obama's foreign policy has been almost indistinguishable from neocon policy anyhow. That makes the decision a bit easier for me.


He hasn't preemptively started any 10 year wars with countries that didn't attack us. Shock n Awe ...

Cost 3 Trillion

Well, I'd say his covert preemptive war against Libya, a nation that hadn't attacked us at the time the war started, counts. It hasn't been 10 years yet, but that's mathematically impossible for a one-term president.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsals ... president/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... he-neocon/

He also broke his promise to close Guantanamo.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#49 » by hands11 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:09 pm

nate33 wrote:I will dismiss him. I'll dismiss him because his policy preferences are clearly those of a liberal and I am not a liberal. He is:

pro-choice
pro-affirmative action, even if it excludes white applicants who are better qualified
pro-amnesty
pro-wealth redistribution: "Americans are looking for more government in their life, not less"

And what's funny is that he supports Obama because of his concerns about Republican neoconism on foreign policy. But Obama started a war in Libya and Obama has kept Guantanamo open. What exactly makes Obama a safer bet on foreign policy?

Powell is free to endorse whomever he chooses. But I see no reason why his decision should sway me in any way.


Nate. Pull your head out of the sand. This wealth redistribution thing is a red herring. Its all about wealth redistribution. The republicans promote a ton of it. They take tons of government money. They blow huge holes in the debt robbing future generations.

pro-amnesty ? Look. No one wants to reward people who entered the country illegally. But sadly neither side did anything about it for way to long and now we have Dreamers here who have already used American resources growing up. America is the only home they know. They got educated here. We have been working to secure the board. Then we need to do something about the people that are still on this side of the fence.

pro-affirmative action. It needs amended. So fight to do that.

Not pro choice. Well the alternative being promoted is... God wanted you to get raped. I don't think it works like that.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#50 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:14 pm

nate, I said what I did about Ron Paul because I am an ignorant guy when it comes to politics. Just on the surface, that is what I believe(d). Wizardspride suggested I did some research on Paul. Didn't take but 5 minutes to uncover some very damning stuff, but I'm not sure it seems believable.


http://crooksandliars.com/kenneth-quinn ... orst-thing

I can't see anyone supporting the age of consent to be 12 years old. Can't believe he would eliminate health care. If he truly would leave all social welfare in the hands of individuals, that is scary. Eliminating childcare credits and at the other extreme, planned parenthood would put a hurt on many families with young children or young adults who are not ready to start a family.

I don't really have much time or patience with politics because I don't know what to believe--but there are certainly a lot of things there to make you hesitate on Paul if true.

He just seems like more of a stand up guy than Mitt or Barack to me. However, some of those views are very controversial and some just flat wrong IMO.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#51 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:14 pm

Hands, you are free to disagree with me on these issues. It's why you are a liberal and I am not. I'm just saying that there is very little in Powell's belief system that aligns with the Republican party. Therefore, when Powell endorses a Democrat, I don't consider it newsworthy.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#52 » by hands11 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:16 pm

Guantanamo will get shut down when we get out of Afghanistan.

Lybia is no Iraq. Come on. No boots and no where near the money.

America has always been involved in this smaller covert type things. Only most of history we paid others to do it. Not we have drones and we can do it ourselves.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#53 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:21 pm

CCJ, I can find no credible source for the age of consent issue off which you speak.

Also, bear in mind that Ron Paul wants to dismantle most of these programs from being run by the Federal government. He views them as unconstitutional when run by Washington D.C. States would be free to implement all the social welfare issue that you advocate.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#54 » by hands11 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:21 pm

nate33 wrote:Hands, you are free to disagree with me on these issues. It's why you are a liberal and I am not. I'm just saying that there is very little in Powell's belief system that aligns with the Republican party. Therefore, when Powell endorses a Democrat, I don't consider it newsworthy.


First off, I'm not a liberal. I'm a independent moderate who has nothing to choose between so I side with the one sane choice available which is the Dems.

Second. Powell did not leave the R party. The party left him. Powell is what you call a moderate Republican. He just sounds odd because he is an endangered species.

Remember, it wasn't so long ago that Powell was a favorite of many Rs to run for President.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#55 » by Wizardspride » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:24 pm

nate33 wrote:
He also broke his promise to close Guantanamo.

This is debatable Nate.

I don't think Obama "broke" his promise per se.

Did he fail to accomplish his promise so far? Yes.


But since he did actually try I'm not sure I'd categorize that one as a "broken" promise.


But the bottomline is that he didn't get it done.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#56 » by hands11 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:27 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
nate33 wrote:
He also broke his promise to close Guantanamo.

This is debatable Nate.

I don't think Obama "broke" his promise per se.

Did he fail to accomplish his promise so far? Yes.


But since he did actually try I'm not sure I'd categorize that one as a "broken" promise.


But the bottomline is that he didn't get it done.


Yet

But keep this in mind. You haven't heard of any outrageous crap going on over there under Obama.
No picture of solders with dead people.

It may still be there but I get the sense it is being run differently.

Point is, their foreign policies are very different. With the Dems, you don't have to take into consideration the Military Industrial Complex Corporate Machine or Religious extremists who want WWIII so Jesus will return. Dems only have our national security in mind.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#57 » by Wizardspride » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:33 pm

nate33 wrote:
Also, bear in mind that Ron Paul wants to dismantle most of these programs from being run by the Federal government. He views them as unconstitutional when run by Washington D.C. States would be free to implement all the social welfare issue that you advocate.

And that's my problem with Paul's philosphy,

What if the states choose to not implement various social welfare programs?


What then?


Where I differ with Dr. Paul (and son) is that he actually trusts the states to make the right choice.

Frankly, I don't. At least not in every situation.

He has a similar view on Civil Rights.

He (and his son) believe that businesses should have the right to discriminate and that the free market would handle it because those businesses would eventually lose customers.

And because of this belief, they would have both opposed the 1964 Civil Rights Act.


I could go on and on but like I said, Dr. Paul has some "interesting" beliefs.....to say the least.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#58 » by dobrojim » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:40 pm

Ronald Reagan wouldn't be a Republican anymore.
Or at best would be on the outside looking in after the primaries.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#59 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:43 pm

Wizardspride wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Also, bear in mind that Ron Paul wants to dismantle most of these programs from being run by the Federal government. He views them as unconstitutional when run by Washington D.C. States would be free to implement all the social welfare issue that you advocate.

And that's my problem with Paul's philosphy,

What if the states choose to not implement various social welfare programs?


What then?


Where I differ with Dr. Paul (and son) is that he actually trusts the states to make the right choice.

Frankly, I don't. At least not in every situation.

He has a similar view on Civil Rights.

He (and his son) believe that businesses should have the right to discriminate and that the free market would handle it because those businesses would eventually lose customers.

And because of this belief, they would have both opposed the 1964 Civil Rights Act.


I could go on and on but like I said, Dr. Paul has some "interesting" beliefs.....to say the least.

For the life of me, I don't understand why you don't trust a state to make the right choice but you do trust the feds. To me, it seems intuitively obvious that the states are more likely to be in tune with the local population to provide exactly what the local population wants.

The one caveat is that States don't have the ability to print money so they can't obfuscate the cost of social programs. This means States will provide less extravagant social programs. Ultimately, this is the correct policy because the current federal run welfare state is fundamentally unsustainable and will lead to an economic collapse in the not too distant future. In short, the ability to print money has given the federal government (and voters) improper price signals on the cost of programs. When reality reasserts itself, there will be a lot pain. All the promises made to the elderly will be broken.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#60 » by Wizardspride » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:44 pm

And fwiw,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html


GDP rises 2 percent, showing a slow but durable recovery



http://www.latimes.com/business/money/l ... 2702.story

Consumer confidence closes October at five-year high
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