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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#941 » by Nivek » Mon Feb 4, 2013 4:57 pm

One of the lines of argument on homosexuals being scout leaders (or teachers or whatever) is this idea of keeping gay men away from boys. The problem with this line of argument, however, is that homosexuality does not equal pedophilia. There are gay pedophiles, of course, just as there are heterosexual pedophiles. Married, heterosexual pedophiles who have children of their own.

The issue for organizations such as scouts, churches, schools, and/or sports teams should be finding ways to screen out pedophiles, not exclude a broad group such as gay, black, Jewish, etc.

The second line of argument is that a gay leader can/will attempt to influence the boys to pursue a gay lifestyle, or will influence boys in that direction by virtue of their presence in a leadership position. I'm not sure how folks living in the real world can make this argument in a serious way. My sons have both had gay teachers, and neither has shown an inkling of interest in being gay. (And, we've made a point of telling all our kids that it's perfectly okay with us parents if they are gay -- that what we want is for them and whoever they love to be happy.) This is the way it works on this issue. Kids are not as weak-minded and fragile as they're being made out to be. It's important to protect kids (boys and girls) from predators, but as I've mentioned before, homosexual and predator are not synonymous.

There are some kids who are already gay, who may be more willing to disclose what they're feeling because of the presence of a gay leader. This is a good thing. Repressing feelings, hiding them, keeping them secret -- that often just leads to misery down the road.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#942 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Feb 4, 2013 5:18 pm

hands11 wrote:I think the problem is people try to make things this or that why they are both.

Sure there are gay people that are just born that way. There are also people that had gay experiences that are caused by other people taking advantage of them. I doubt all those kids in the churches were gay and just waiting for a priest to make their move. No.

People are a product of their environment and they are a product of their nature. Its not nature vs Nurture. Its both.

Being gay does not make you a bad person that would take advantage of someone to young to make their own decisions but to CCJs point, young people are easily influenced and adolescence is a very confusing time for a young person. Who you allow your kids to be exposed to is pretty important. And in the case of something like the boyscotts, I believe part of the idea there is to get them involved with people that you see as mentors. If he choose to not want his boy mentored by a gay man, that is his choice.

No doubt some young people would experiment with different identities as they are trying to figure out who they are. That is what young people do. But if you have a strong relationship with your children such that they feel loved, respected, and protected, they will model themselves after you more then others. And there in is where CCJ is stepping in. He is the one responsible to building their foundation and determining what they are exposed to and at what age. Just like you don't allow your children to watch curtain movies before a curtain age. I would not worry so much about a kid that has a strong foundation. Specially if that father has explained to them what is appropriate and how to react if someone approaches them in an inappropriate way.

He can teach his child about sexuality and the different forms of it when he feels the time it right. There is no debate that explaining gay love or gay sex is a little more complicated then a man and a women. But like I said, good thing you don't have girls. Because if the fear is sexual abuse, I would think it is far more common that a young female is abused by a male then that a young boy is abused by a male.

I see this a two issues. One is who do you want your children exposed to that are in mentoring roles. The other is how to protect your child male or female against those who would sexual abuse them. That is the bare basics.


hands, I have an adult daughter. I was divorced from her mother when she was 1 year old. She is 19 years old and extremely bitter toward me. She is a fan of Megan Rapinoe and all girl bands. My daughter, who called me dude last time we spoke, looks like a dude. I don't have a problem with her sexuality but I have come to accept her mother raised her and allowed her to be exposed to whatever.

I think the one thing she would have different if I raised her was self respect and love for her father, but I don't know that she doesn't have self respect or that this isn't just some phase of loathing me based on what she's heard.

My opinion is that my first ex-wife did a fine job messing her head up big time. I think the same man who I very strongly suspect molested her mother might have molested her. Good ole Uncle Eric. I think maybe the best thing of all is I didn't end up taking someone out over something I couldn't prevent.

hands, I didn't raise that child but I am raising two more and have a step who is currently in Florida but who is closest to me. They need to be loved, protected, respected for whatever they are but not left to find love from whoever pretends to give a damn.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#943 » by nate33 » Mon Feb 4, 2013 5:27 pm

For the record, it wouldn't bother me a bit if my son's scout leader was gay. But it also doesn't bother me if the Boy Scout organization sought to prevent gay people from being scout leaders. If you don't like the policy, don't join the Boy Scouts.

Nivek wrote:One of the lines of argument on homosexuals being scout leaders (or teachers or whatever) is this idea of keeping gay men away from boys. The problem with this line of argument, however, is that homosexuality does not equal pedophilia. There are gay pedophiles, of course, just as there are heterosexual pedophiles. Married, heterosexual pedophiles who have children of their own.

I would like to know what kind of data there is on this. Are pedophiles more likely to be gay? Is the proportion of gay people who are pedophiles significantly higher than the proportion of heterosexual men who are pedophiles? I don't know the answers to these questions. I wonder if anyone does.

One additional point, however. I think lots of parents would be uncomfortable with their daughters being on a Girl Scout troop that is led by a male if there was extensive time with scout and leader together in an unsupervised fashion. This isn't because all men are pedophiles, it's just that people don't particularly trust that all adult men can control their sexual urges when around people who are helpless to resist. Does that analogy hold when we are talking about a gay male adult around young Boy Scouts in unsupervised conditions?

Nivek wrote:The issue for organizations such as scouts, churches, schools, and/or sports teams should be finding ways to screen out pedophiles, not exclude a broad group such as gay, black, Jewish, etc.

Agreed.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#944 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Feb 4, 2013 6:33 pm

Nate, that might be true, but screening out gay men isn't going to change anything. All that does is screen out men who are openly gay, and if you are a pedophile, you are not going to put that on your resume. The only people you would screen out are the safe ones.

I can see a policy of, if you are hiding your homosexuality and get found out, that might be a reason for getting thrown out, because it's the people who are hiding their homosexuality might be the ones you are worried about.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#945 » by Induveca » Mon Feb 4, 2013 6:55 pm

Typical Post-2005 America. I'm in New York this week for business. Huge financial problems worldwide, drug wars raging just over the border.......a senate scandal which would bring down the democratic leadership if the truth were told....

The last hour of news has focused on gays in the Boy Scouts, Kardashian is pregnant and Ray Lewis.

We've become a nation of idiots focused on personality/controversy vs substance/solutions.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#946 » by montestewart » Mon Feb 4, 2013 7:03 pm

Induveca wrote:Typical Post-2005 America. I'm in New York this week for business. Huge financial problems worldwide, drug wars raging just over the border.......a senate scandal which would bring down the democratic leadership if the truth were told....

The last hour of news has focused on gays in the Boy Scouts, Kardashian is pregnant and Ray Lewis.

We've become a nation of idiots focused on personality/controversy vs substance/solutions.

I was noticing last week the level of focus, seemingly in all news outlets, on Beyonce lip-synching at the inauguration. Now that is some serious hardcore news. Of all the things to focus on regarding Obama's 2nd term, whether you love him, hate him, or are indifferent, let's all talk and think about something that hardly matters at all.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#947 » by montestewart » Mon Feb 4, 2013 7:48 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Nate, that might be true, but screening out gay men isn't going to change anything. All that does is screen out men who are openly gay, and if you are a pedophile, you are not going to put that on your resume. The only people you would screen out are the safe ones.

I can see a policy of, if you are hiding your homosexuality and get found out, that might be a reason for getting thrown out, because it's the people who are hiding their homosexuality might be the ones you are worried about.

Add to that, the extensive body of evidence that most men that molest boys do not even self-identify as homosexuals, and the majority are outwardly heterosexual in adult relationships, if they have any. Here's a little light reading:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 2v51n04_01
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1556756
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/666571?dopt=Abstract

There are many papers available online that discuss and primarily debunk the widespread assumption that gay men (that being self-identified gay men) are more likely to be child molesters than straight men (that being self-identified straight men).

Researchers have in recent years identified two primary categories of child molester: fixated (is only attracted to children) and regressive (attracted to adults, but "regress" to victimizing children under stressful circumstances). Those in both groups typically identify as and outwardly appear to be heterosexual. You can choose to lump together men who molest boys as a subset of homosexuals, but they really have nothing in common with an openly gay man that applies to be a scout leader.

An argument that a private organization that receives no government funding should be free to exclude whomever it chooses is a separate issue, and I have more mixed feelings about that. It is a private rights issue, though I wonder why such exclusive clubs and organizations would be met with a positive reception nowadays. But grounding the Boy Scouts' gay exclusion in the "gay child molester" myth perpetuates witch hunt-like hysteria that seems pretty out of place in the 21st century.

When I was a scout, my stepfather (a fairly conservative Republican) was the leader. Both he and my father-in-law (a very conservative Republican) generally favor inclusion of gays in the Boy Scouts, and I believe they take that position because they (along with so much of this country) have moved beyond stereotypes about gays, and see it as an issue of equality of opportunity. I hope that represents a positive trend.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#948 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:42 pm

Induveca wrote:Typical Post-2005 America. I'm in New York this week for business. Huge financial problems worldwide, drug wars raging just over the border.......a senate scandal which would bring down the democratic leadership if the truth were told....

The last hour of news has focused on gays in the Boy Scouts, Kardashian is pregnant and Ray Lewis.

We've become a nation of idiots focused on personality/controversy vs substance/solutions.


I'm not focused on personality/controversy. (Lord knows I've been thought an idiot and called crazy many a time!)

This debate is something I've given in to this time, but I don't know that I will in the future. It has caused such strife. My opinions shouldn't rock anybody's boat one way or another. If people have family members who are gay or they are gay, and you were my friend before, you still are my friend if you choose to be.

Induveca, substance and solutions depend on perspective. Part of what is going on in the US (and this forum) is there is so much diversity, and so much cultural pluralism, that there is not much solidarity or consensus.

The framework of the Constitution calls for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. All I do is pray for my leadership (Obama and people like you, Mr Leonsis, etc) to be righteous. Righteousness will exalt the nation. I am NOT in power. You won't catch me in the pulpit. You won't catch me running for office. I have to figure my own stuff out. But at the same time in my sphere of influence and under my little span of control, I go by what I believe is righteous and fair.

Thank you, everyone, for being patient with me. Sorry if I offended anyone and at the same time THANKS for discussing things openly.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#949 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:43 pm

montestewart wrote:
Induveca wrote:Typical Post-2005 America. I'm in New York this week for business. Huge financial problems worldwide, drug wars raging just over the border.......a senate scandal which would bring down the democratic leadership if the truth were told....

The last hour of news has focused on gays in the Boy Scouts, Kardashian is pregnant and Ray Lewis.

We've become a nation of idiots focused on personality/controversy vs substance/solutions.

I was noticing last week the level of focus, seemingly in all news outlets, on Beyonce lip-synching at the inauguration. Now that is some serious hardcore news. Of all the things to focus on regarding Obama's 2nd term, whether you love him, hate him, or are indifferent, let's all talk and think about something that hardly matters at all.


I've had some thoughts about Beyonce myself… She is a good entertainer. So is Alicia Keys. :)
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#950 » by Nivek » Mon Feb 4, 2013 8:47 pm

Induveca wrote:Here's something amazing the US public is largely ignoring. Bob Menendez. How the US media mostly focuses on the prostitute angle is something I'll never understand.

The real story, as a guy who lives but a few blocks from where this supposedly all went down, is as follows:

- Menendez (privately) and Saloman Mengen (publicly) owned a DR company ICCSI which had a 20 year contract to "inspect" containers in Dominican shipping ports. Valued at over 1 billion dollars.
- The DR icurrently has the highest rate of drug shipments in the entire Caribbean. Growing problem. The former DR president is very tight with the Russian and Mexican cartels infecting the country. He is also tight with port ownership/management. Menendez has been seen here having dinner with the president and his wife many times. Current president is ex-president's puppet.
- "Off contract", the cartels pay huge bribes to whoever holds the contract to enforce a "do not inspect" list to certain containers.
- Menendez is, in fact, profiting in huge ways from the drug trade.
- Menendez/Mengen's contract was revoked right around the same time the leaked BS prostitute story came out in November (yes it first broke in November prior to elections, ignored in US mostly).
- Well known here the story was a plant by Russian cartel here who wanted the contract in even more corrupt hands. Contract was since awarded to another, non-US connected firm.

How the hell is Menendez the head of the senate foreign intelligence committee? He has at least 50+ million in drug derived profits outside the US..


I would encourage you to contact an investigative journalist with this kind of info if there was such a creature nowadays. At least one not investigating which celeb is cheating or which celeb is gay or which celeb has cellulite when she wears a bikini.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#951 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Feb 4, 2013 9:04 pm

montestewart wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Nate, that might be true, but screening out gay men isn't going to change anything. All that does is screen out men who are openly gay, and if you are a pedophile, you are not going to put that on your resume. The only people you would screen out are the safe ones.

I can see a policy of, if you are hiding your homosexuality and get found out, that might be a reason for getting thrown out, because it's the people who are hiding their homosexuality might be the ones you are worried about.

Add to that, the extensive body of evidence that most men that molest boys do not even self-identify as homosexuals, and the majority are outwardly heterosexual in adult relationships, if they have any. Here's a little light reading:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 2v51n04_01
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1556756
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/666571?dopt=Abstract

There are many papers available online that discuss and primarily debunk the widespread assumption that gay men (that being self-identified gay men) are more likely to be child molesters than straight men (that being self-identified straight men).

Researchers have in recent years identified two primary categories of child molester: fixated (is only attracted to children) and regressive (attracted to adults, but "regress" to victimizing children under stressful circumstances). Those in both groups typically identify as and outwardly appear to be heterosexual. You can choose to lump together men who molest boys as a subset of homosexuals, but they really have nothing in common with an openly gay man that applies to be a scout leader.

An argument that a private organization that receives no government funding should be free to exclude whomever it chooses is a separate issue, and I have more mixed feelings about that. It is a private rights issue, though I wonder why such exclusive clubs and organizations would be met with a positive reception nowadays. But grounding the Boy Scouts' gay exclusion in the "gay child molester" myth perpetuates witch hunt-like hysteria that seems pretty out of place in the 21st century.

When I was a scout, my stepfather (a fairly conservative Republican) was the leader. Both he and my father-in-law (a very conservative Republican) generally favor inclusion of gays in the Boy Scouts, and I believe they take that position because they (along with so much of this country) have moved beyond stereotypes about gays, and see it as an issue of equality of opportunity. I hope that represents a positive trend.


You, your father-in-law, your stepfather, and probably President Obama have put more time and thought into educating yourselves on the issue of gays in the Boy Scouts than I have. Research is the basis of your arguments and without yet opening any of those links, monte, I trust what I know about you to believe I should consider them credible research outlets.

I will give you that much and admit I have my own set of views and some of them are pretty doggone ignorant. At times that doesn't stop me from expressing them. An opinion isn't an informed one unless one is open to disparate views.

At the same time, some things are taboo for a reason. They've been that way for thousands of years. Just because in this era things are changing does not mean the foundation of traditions were wrong. Homosexuality has been around since before the bible but I will be darned if everything about the bible seems to indicate that's not the way to go. I did not make that book up.

All I know is that is another hot topic that is too deep and too distressing to discuss without hurting each other's feelings. Some things researchers would say like we evolved from apes or that prehistoric man lived a certain way would go against all that some of us were raised to believe.

Again, thank goodness for separation of church and state. It goes right up there with pursuing liberty, freedom, and happiness. Live and let live is what I believe in, but I have my set of intolerant, bigoted, sexist, and arcane views.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#952 » by penbeast0 » Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:33 pm

montestewart wrote:
Induveca wrote:Typical Post-2005 America. I'm in New York this week for business. Huge financial problems worldwide, drug wars raging just over the border.......a senate scandal which would bring down the democratic leadership if the truth were told....

The last hour of news has focused on gays in the Boy Scouts, Kardashian is pregnant and Ray Lewis.

We've become a nation of idiots focused on personality/controversy vs substance/solutions.

I was noticing last week the level of focus, seemingly in all news outlets, on Beyonce lip-synching at the inauguration. Now that is some serious hardcore news. Of all the things to focus on regarding Obama's 2nd term, whether you love him, hate him, or are indifferent, let's all talk and think about something that hardly matters at all.


Yeah . . . like professional sports :wink:
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#953 » by montestewart » Mon Feb 4, 2013 10:43 pm

^
Well, that's a given.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#954 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Feb 5, 2013 2:14 am

There's all sorts of crazy **** in the Bible we don't believe in anymore. But whatever ... you don't like gay people and don't want them in the Boy Scouts, whatever (I just pray that none of your kids are gay because that's gotta be a painful environment to grow up in). But please don't let your prejudice against a certain group of people let you think it's ok to baselessly accuse them of pedophilia, that's garbage.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#955 » by montestewart » Tue Feb 5, 2013 4:20 am

Nivek wrote:
Induveca wrote:Here's something amazing the US public is largely ignoring. Bob Menendez. How the US media mostly focuses on the prostitute angle is something I'll never understand.

The real story, as a guy who lives but a few blocks from where this supposedly all went down, is as follows:

- Menendez (privately) and Saloman Mengen (publicly) owned a DR company ICCSI which had a 20 year contract to "inspect" containers in Dominican shipping ports. Valued at over 1 billion dollars.
- The DR icurrently has the highest rate of drug shipments in the entire Caribbean. Growing problem. The former DR president is very tight with the Russian and Mexican cartels infecting the country. He is also tight with port ownership/management. Menendez has been seen here having dinner with the president and his wife many times. Current president is ex-president's puppet.
- "Off contract", the cartels pay huge bribes to whoever holds the contract to enforce a "do not inspect" list to certain containers.
- Menendez is, in fact, profiting in huge ways from the drug trade.
- Menendez/Mengen's contract was revoked right around the same time the leaked BS prostitute story came out in November (yes it first broke in November prior to elections, ignored in US mostly).
- Well known here the story was a plant by Russian cartel here who wanted the contract in even more corrupt hands. Contract was since awarded to another, non-US connected firm.

How the hell is Menendez the head of the senate foreign intelligence committee? He has at least 50+ million in drug derived profits outside the US..


I would encourage you to contact an investigative journalist with this kind of info if there was such a creature nowadays. At least one not investigating which celeb is cheating or which celeb is gay or which celeb has cellulite when she wears a bikini.

No mention of drugs (yet), but it's getting a little mileage in at least one paper:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/31/3 ... -help.html
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#956 » by DCZards » Tue Feb 5, 2013 4:41 am

Induveca wrote:
Before people freak out, I say this also because the US is up against China and Russia who are employing this same strategy. China is slowly taking over east Africa, and Russia the Caribbean and South America. They're taking natural resources (China) and the drug trade (Russia), through far less visible means.

The US is quickly losing world market share in influence. Time to get back to what they did best, patrolling the world with intimidation and enforcing "logical" policies on countries poised to become a threat.


Isn't what you're advocating akin to "colonialism" or "imperialism" or something like that? Personally, I prefer that my country put a premium on what you consider "social bull," like promoting economic justice and human/civil rights.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#957 » by Induveca » Tue Feb 5, 2013 4:43 am

montestewart wrote:
Nivek wrote:
Induveca wrote:Here's something amazing the US public is largely ignoring. Bob Menendez. How the US media mostly focuses on the prostitute angle is something I'll never understand.

The real story, as a guy who lives but a few blocks from where this supposedly all went down, is as follows:

- Menendez (privately) and Saloman Mengen (publicly) owned a DR company ICCSI which had a 20 year contract to "inspect" containers in Dominican shipping ports. Valued at over 1 billion dollars.
- The DR icurrently has the highest rate of drug shipments in the entire Caribbean. Growing problem. The former DR president is very tight with the Russian and Mexican cartels infecting the country. He is also tight with port ownership/management. Menendez has been seen here having dinner with the president and his wife many times. Current president is ex-president's puppet.
- "Off contract", the cartels pay huge bribes to whoever holds the contract to enforce a "do not inspect" list to certain containers.
- Menendez is, in fact, profiting in huge ways from the drug trade.
- Menendez/Mengen's contract was revoked right around the same time the leaked BS prostitute story came out in November (yes it first broke in November prior to elections, ignored in US mostly).
- Well known here the story was a plant by Russian cartel here who wanted the contract in even more corrupt hands. Contract was since awarded to another, non-US connected firm.

How the hell is Menendez the head of the senate foreign intelligence committee? He has at least 50+ million in drug derived profits outside the US..


I would encourage you to contact an investigative journalist with this kind of info if there was such a creature nowadays. At least one not investigating which celeb is cheating or which celeb is gay or which celeb has cellulite when she wears a bikini.

No mention of drugs (yet), but it's getting a little mileage in at least one paper:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/31/3 ... -help.html


This scandal goes much much deeper.....

The story you reference was him lobbying congress in an attempt to save Melgen's port contract in the DR. By default, Menendez had a huge cut of that company.

The only real purpose of the corporation was to hide drug money and allow for selective flow of drugs for select cartels.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#958 » by montestewart » Tue Feb 5, 2013 6:15 am

^
I'm sure it goes deeper (it usually does) but at least one outlet is looking deeper than just the prostitution angle. Also, the Miami Herald story is linked to on Huffington Post, giving it wider exposure. We might be hearing more about this yet.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#959 » by dobrojim » Tue Feb 5, 2013 6:58 pm

I wonder when our drone policy will become enlightened to the point that
we actually consider that some day, we won't have a monopoly on that
technology. I suspect that would be unlikely to lead to the right kinds
of questions being asked, but rather to who the Rosenbergs of drone
technology were and what should be done with them.

I may have little use for the pubs in the House, and generally support
Obama, but that, to me, doesn't change the essential nature of what
is taking place. Extra-judicial killing ie the only people in positions to
make decisions about who the next victim is, are unaccountable exec
branch people. You can bet that when a real mistake in drone usage
happens, (there may have already been one IDK) that there will be
no accountability. Everything will be classified, classified to protect the
guilty from the embarrassment of their F#ck up.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#960 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Feb 5, 2013 7:07 pm

Indiscriminately killing innocents in drone attacks is just wrong. If you live in Pakistan it sucks to be you when "The Predator" spots that high-value target upstairs or downstairs in your apartment building.

My dad and I had a discussion about the end justifying the means, but I disagree.

If a terrorist even more dangerous just happens to live in Saudi Arabia, or Colombia, or Mexico City, or Buenos Aires, or New York City; they don't have to worry about drones. Worse, that target isn't given the benefit of a trial. They are being summarily executed along with anyone in their proximity.

Barack is no better than Republicans on this issue. He might even be more of a war hawk. I realize there is going to be collateral damage at times in wars, but if Predator attacks become routine business on anyone at any time, the potential for committing war atrocity is high.
Bye bye Beal.

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