Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

[dobrojim]

More than Words of wisdom from the country's newest Senator (Scott from South Carolina) - “I am thankful for a strong mom that understood that love sometimes comes at the end of a switch,” Scott said.

Violence begets violence. It's well-known that many of the men and women who are now perpetrators of child and spousal abuse were victims of abuse themselves as kids.

I hear people speak nostalgically about switches, belts, etc. What utter nonsense, glazing sadism with a folksy veneer. My parents never spared the rod, and were quite creative at it. Once I ended up in the hospital, another time I was punished for spilling a skillet on myself, then taken to the hospital for the burns I suffered. I don't see the connection between their corporal punishment and anything I am today, other than someone who was able to overcome it and forgive them because they just didn't know any better. I see parents punish their kids in public, and I always think the parent looks more out of control than the kid. I don't think most parents can be trusted to know where good parenting ends and child abuse begins.

Couldn't agree more MS

hitting (let's call it what it is) your children to me is a sign of a real lack of creative thinking.

That's the best you can come up with? Really?

FWIW, and I give >>> credit to my wife than me, I have kids that other
adults always compliment me on.

Not ashamed of the past incidents where I've called out a parent publicly
when I've seen abuse. And no, they don't like it one bit. I can only hope
that maybe, when they cool off, I've planted a seed that will allow them
to grow and change.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

More than Words of wisdom from the country's newest Senator (Scott from South Carolina) - “I am thankful for a strong mom that understood that love sometimes comes at the end of a switch,” Scott said.

Violence begets violence. It's well-known that many of the men and women who are now perpetrators of child and spousal abuse were victims of abuse themselves as kids.

I hear people speak nostalgically about switches, belts, etc. What utter nonsense, glazing sadism with a folksy veneer. My parents never spared the rod, and were quite creative at it. Once I ended up in the hospital, another time I was punished for spilling a skillet on myself, then taken to the hospital for the burns I suffered. I don't see the connection between their corporal punishment and anything I am today, other than someone who was able to overcome it and forgive them because they just didn't know any better. I see parents punish their kids in public, and I always think the parent looks more out of control than the kid. I don't think most parents can be trusted to know where good parenting ends and child abuse begins.

monte, that story brings back the memory of my son falling out of a limousine and hitting his head on the pavement. His scalp started bleeding and the first thing my ex-wife did was go off on him because she had told him not to lean on the door. I can't even post what I want to say about her. Some people are mean and parenting is more about control than love or concern to them. I remember getting wet paper towels and comforting my son.

How a person can be cruel to children is beyond me.

[DCZards]

I received whippings as a kid...sometimes vicious beatings with a belt from a father who had a bad temper. On at least one occasion, I received a whipping by mistake (I had not done anything wrong) that my father would later have to apologize to me for.

I don't think these whippings did one thing to make me a more disciplined child or a better person. All they did was make me hate my father.

I have two daughters who are well-mannered, respectful young adults...and I've never laid a hand on either one of them. I've always believed that I was capable of communicuating (with words, body language and facial expressions) with my children...even when they were toddlers and were doing things that I disapproved of. I'm happy I chose that route.

[montestewart]

I recall seeing an article on corporal punishment mirroring some of the opinions expressed here. They all illustrate a change in the view of corporal punishment in this country. The article cited a various statistics showing a marked decline in acceptance of corporal punishment, from near universal acceptance in the 1960s (an approval rate well above 90%) to rates closer to 60-80% in recent years. Couldn't find the article, but in searching, found several others that cite the same or similar statistics.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

You had girls!, DCZ.

Facial expressions don't work with boys, unless it's the "Don't make me whup yo' ass, boy!" look.

One difference, DCZ, is I'm not an old school, Dad. I gave my dad a bit too much credit in an earlier post. I did hate him and was definitely scared of him when I was younger, but it wasn't because his temper was so bad. He put me down with condescending words. He was a military pilot, twice decorated in Vietnam. Very much a do-as-I-say guy and never much fun. My kids think I'm the funniest dude around, probably because they know they are dad is pretty crazy. I kill them with laughter and kindness, and only rarely do I flip the switch.

DCZ, I think boys are like dogs. You have to show them who the dominant one is. Something in boys, and I don't think it is unhealthy, causes them to buck up at times.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I recall seeing an article on corporal punishment mirroring some of the opinions expressed here. They all illustrate a change in the view of corporal punishment in this country. The article cited a various statistics showing a marked decline in acceptance of corporal punishment, from near universal acceptance in the 1960s (an approval rate well above 90%) to rates closer to 60-80% in recent years. Couldn't find the article, but in searching, found several others that cite the same or similar statistics.

This is the politics thread. Prepare for controversy….

If that shooter in Newtown had his dad kick his butt and talk straight with him earlier, that tragedy might not have happened. Please tell me why that was an ignorant thing to say.

Is it possible he was a spoiled kid with some serious entitlement issues, raised by a mother who probably went out of her way to be kind?

monte, I think the corporal punishment of the 30s, 40s, 50, 60s, and 70s raised two generations that had a lot less blood lust than this generation.

[pancakes3]

CCJ, you should read the huffpo piece that zonk linked earlier and has been making the rounds on facebook status's.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

Granted the child in question is a product of a single parent household (single mom of 4 no less), the point remains that some people are just flat out nuts with serious chemical imbalances in their brains. Worse yet are people with multiple chemical deficiencies like the kid in the article - so convoluted that there's no single diagnosis.

Conventional discipline works for conventional kids that grow up to be conventional adults but conventional people don't go on mass killing sprees.

[montestewart]

Not really controversial CCJ, since I hear variations of that view frequently expressed. I don't agree with it. I'm not sure I've ever encountered anyone who was raised without corporal punishment that I thought was capable of extreme violence. That's just my own experience, but it's so counterintuitive that children raised without violence will commit violent acts. I'd want to see a lot of statistical data to back that up, especially with so many other issues in play (mental illness, confronting modernity and globalism, decline of the image of the U.S. here and around the world, even the rise in violent and sexual imagery in media).

I understand that some parents who don't practice corporal punishment in fact don't practice much of any parenting at all, and I'm not endorsing that approach. I think the issue is more complicated than "If only more parents spanked their kids," and, as nate33 has pointed out, sometimes the perception regarding violent crime doesn't in fact match statistics on violent crime. Here's a link to just one example, an article with graphs showing historical fluctuations of violent crime in the U.S.
http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/06/16/a- ... n-america/

The good old days included routinely unreported or downplayed sexual assault, lynchings and other racial violence, gang violence, and plenty of good old fashioned homicides.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

pancakes, I was diagnosed with a chemical imbalance when I was 32 years old. Two things kept me--okay, three-from being a nut with a gun.

1. I was raised to believe in God. He created life. I felt it was wrong of me to dare take life. Also, didn't want to go to hell. 2. My parents raised no fool. In addition to getting whippings, they had me scared of jail. They always said if I ever went to jail they'd leave me there and wouldn't visit me. Not only did I never go, I never got suspended from school. I was very discreet about fighting and such as a kid. 3. Most of all, I got just enough treatment to level out enough to understand tomorrow is another day. I suffered so much that I thought I will live it out, no matter what. I got so low that I had to learn to enjoy a blue sky and green grass--at least I could see. I had most of my senses. I wasn't starving. I could live ONE DAY AT A TIME.

Some of these people who are freaking fatalists never had much straight talk. They never learned about joy. I first started reading the bible while being treated for depression. Oh, I had been to church plenty, but it wasn't until I really needed to learn a reason to be joyful that I started reading the Good News. Even from that I really didn't fully gravitate toward growing in faith until almost 5 years ago. Thankfully, I've grown to the point that I love just for the sake of expressing gratitude for each day I have on this earth. If I can make anyone else happy, what a joy that is. My life could have ended 20 years ago, when I thought it was all over!

Everybody is different. I was never schizophrenic and totally out of touch. That kid with Asperger's and whatever else going on was a whole different story. I strongly suspect his mind could have been set off worse by some psychotropic medicine that he did not take right. Also, I don't know what he went through in life. Either way, that guy was beyond deranged to do what he did.

[popper]

CCJ, you should read the huffpo piece that zonk linked earlier and has been making the rounds on facebook status's.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

Granted the child in question is a product of a single parent household (single mom of 4 no less), the point remains that some people are just flat out nuts with serious chemical imbalances in their brains. Worse yet are people with multiple chemical deficiencies like the kid in the article - so convoluted that there's no single diagnosis.

Conventional discipline works for conventional kids that grow up to be conventional adults but conventional people don't go on mass killing sprees.

Which is why kids and adults with mental health issues should be no where near guns nor have access to them. States need to share information on those with mental health issues with other states and a policy needs to be adopted so that they can't gain access to guns in their own home. Does anyone know whether or not the mother had her guns locked up?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Sometimes, I think I should not be so honest but to tell this one more time I think it must be a good reason.

Almost 20 years ago, my first marriage ended, my military career prematurely ended, and I felt like I had nothing left to live for. I felt like I had failed as a father, as a husband, and that I was never going to be whole again. What stopped me from hurting myself then was a one-week waiting period from purchasing a gun. I got the permit and for years I looked at that picture ID, THANKFUL that I never got that gun.

popper, you are very correct. What I think would be a worthwhile endeavor is the creation and airing of a PSA, public service announcement, that would welcome all who have been diagnosed or who are being actively treated for mental illness to turn in their firearms.

Couples with stormy relationships don't need them, either. Other main people who don't need guns is people who drink a whole lot and who are substance abusers. Americans are too gun-crazed to begin with.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ, you should read the huffpo piece that zonk linked earlier and has been making the rounds on facebook status's.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html

Granted the child in question is a product of a single parent household (single mom of 4 no less), the point remains that some people are just flat out nuts with serious chemical imbalances in their brains. Worse yet are people with multiple chemical deficiencies like the kid in the article - so convoluted that there's no single diagnosis.

Conventional discipline works for conventional kids that grow up to be conventional adults but conventional people don't go on mass killing sprees.

Conventional discipline isn't the answer here, for sure. Nothing short of something draconian seems to me like a solution for a kid like that one. His mother did well to write that because she and that child need help.

It also makes me wonder if there is a genetic predisposition for it. In law they use a term criminally insane, but I wonder if that is an organic thing? Words like "evil" apply, but I don't generally think of that as an innate trait.

Is it possible the child suffered from fetal alcohol syndrome or some other condition that could have affected his brain? At some point I think that child's brainwaves should be mapped. Something is amiss with kids who think and behave so aberrantly. I wonder if there isn't something physiologically misaligned.

[Nivek]

You had girls!, DCZ.

Facial expressions don't work with boys, unless it's the "Don't make me whup yo' ass, boy!" look.

They work with my boys.

DCZ, I think boys are like dogs. You have to show them who the dominant one is. Something in boys, and I don't think it is unhealthy, causes them to buck up at times.

I don't agree. I've never felt the need to show my boys that I'm the "dominant" one. (Well, except for that one time my son was being disrespectful to his mother. Even then, all I did was push him up against a wall and hold him there for a few seconds. Then I let him go and we talked.) They'll "buck up" at times, but I've found that humor and a sense of calm goes a long ways toward defusing bad tempers in a way that has everyone feeling good about themselves. Shoot, my not-quite 16-year old regularly defuses situations with his mom and sister with a calm, rational, and often humorous approach.

[pancakes3]

It also makes me wonder if there is a genetic predisposition for it. In law they use a term criminally insane, but I wonder if that is an organic thing? Words like "evil" apply, but I don't generally think of that as an innate trait.

Is it possible the child suffered from fetal alcohol syndrome or some other condition that could have affected his brain? At some point I think that child's brainwaves should be mapped. Something is amiss with kids who think and behave so aberrantly. I wonder if there isn't something physiologically misaligned.

Almost certainly. The biologists on this board can probably articulate it better than I but the chemical imbalances that was referred to earlier is your brain and various glands not secreting the chemicals normal people do - hence the drugs to mimic the natural chemicals. chemicals = drugs.

Of course that's not to say things can't be shaped by your environment. As people are developing, synapses fuse and different behaviors linked to pain/pleasure etc get linked to various actions as interpreted by the brain and glands.

We are all just bags of chemicals and everything we do is the reaction of those chemicals.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

You had girls!, DCZ.

Facial expressions don't work with boys, unless it's the "Don't make me whup yo' ass, boy!" look.

They work with my boys.

DCZ, I think boys are like dogs. You have to show them who the dominant one is. Something in boys, and I don't think it is unhealthy, causes them to buck up at times.

I don't agree. I've never felt the need to show my boys that I'm the "dominant" one. (Well, except for that one time my son was being disrespectful to his mother. Even then, all I did was push him up against a wall and hold him there for a few seconds. Then I let him go and we talked.) They'll "buck up" at times, but I've found that humor and a sense of calm goes a long ways toward defusing bad tempers in a way that has everyone feeling good about themselves. Shoot, my not-quite 16-year old regularly defuses situations with his mom and sister with a calm, rational, and often humorous approach.

I bet he felt like he was about to get it when you had him pinned, Nivek. To be honest, most of the spankings my kids got when I was married were because of the ex-wife going back and forth with them. I was like the calvary to her or like police backup. But that's another story and a time that fortunately for me is over.

Nivek, my son is 12 but he's already 175 pounds. Do you know how much energy it takes to try and whip him?

Nah, he's too old for that now. Now, I take away the XBox and the Wii. I don't let him go to his youth center. I also issue a lot of threats that are mostly pretty lame things.

[Nivek]

My go-to "punishment"? The dishes. Or the laundry. They HATE doing these things and it actually benefits the family.

[Zonkerbl]

The talk.

2 hours of in-depth discussion of why what you did was wrong and what we're going to do in the future to avoid it happening again.

Amazingly effective.

[montestewart]

The talk.

2 hours of in-depth discussion of why what you did was wrong and what we're going to do in the future to avoid it happening again.

Amazingly effective.

Agreed, and not a bad way for parent and child to better know each other.

[Nivek]

The Talk CAN be effective. Other times, it's just an annoying waste of time for me and for them. I read or heard somewhere that Rick Pitino won't let a coaching point in practice take more than 7 seconds (the real number might be 10, and it might be Coach K). The point being that you don't want to disrupt the flow, you want to correct and guide and keep things moving. I actually try to do that when I can with my kids. Sometimes it means I hold my tongue and wait, and when I have I've often been surprised at seeing my kids "self correct."

Bigger stuff requires bigger conversations at times. Most of the time, though, my kids know the right thing to do. At most they just need a reminder or some encouragement.

Something else I try to keep in mind -- everything doesn't have to be corrected immediately. I'm in this for life, and they are too. One of the things I've learned is that there's very little I can do to "force" anyone to "change" -- even habits that are bad, wasteful or destructive. Best thing I can do to influence change is often to set a personal example, provide encouragement, and don't be an ass.

[dobrojim]

The talk.

2 hours of in-depth discussion of why what you did was wrong and what we're going to do in the future to avoid it happening again.

Amazingly effective.

Agreed, and not a bad way for parent and child to better know each other.

+2

CCJ, if you're interested you might consider this (different religious approach)

http://www.amazon.com/Quaker-Parenting- ... 0976967324