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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1001 » by fishercob » Thu Feb 7, 2013 10:59 pm

popper wrote:
Nivek wrote:"Glares in contempt"?

Wow. I didn't see that at all.

I admire Ben Carson, though. Someplace, I have a picture of the time my then-small daughter meeting him a few years back. His story is remarkable.


I guess silent indignation might be a better description. Pretty cool that your daughter met this accomplished man.


Interesting speech. You're seeing what you want to see. What type of facial expressions would be acceptable to you?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1002 » by Nivek » Thu Feb 7, 2013 11:15 pm

popper wrote:
Nivek wrote:"Glares in contempt"?

Wow. I didn't see that at all.

I admire Ben Carson, though. Someplace, I have a picture of the time my then-small daughter meeting him a few years back. His story is remarkable.


I guess silent indignation might be a better description. Pretty cool that your daughter met this accomplished man.


I don't think that's a better description either. I thought Obama listened politely.

Yeah, meeting Carson was cool for the entire family. My boys were too young to remember. She also met Bob Dole and John Glenn at book signings. Those were cool too.

Coolest "kid meets famous person" story just happened. My son got to meet Wynton Marsalis backstage at the Kennedy Center. Coolest exchange was this:

MARSALIS: What do you play? (gesturing at the instrument case on my son's back)

MY SON: Euphonium.

MARSALIS: I'd really like to hear you play. (turns to parents) You guys in a hurry?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1003 » by popper » Fri Feb 8, 2013 12:22 am

fishercob wrote:
popper wrote:
Nivek wrote:"Glares in contempt"?

Wow. I didn't see that at all.

I admire Ben Carson, though. Someplace, I have a picture of the time my then-small daughter meeting him a few years back. His story is remarkable.


I guess silent indignation might be a better description. Pretty cool that your daughter met this accomplished man.


Interesting speech. You're seeing what you want to see. What type of facial expressions would be acceptable to you?


You are right to an extent. Obviously the speech was a repudiation of everything that Obama (the politician) stands for. It is also clear to me and those in the conservative press that Obama avoids people with views that don't comport with his own (Bob Woodward confirms this in his latest book). Therefore, with the exception of a smile during one of the lighter moments in the speech I observed that he sat in stone (but polite) silence. I can't prove that he was seething internally but that is my opinion (could be wrong of course).

Edit - there seemed to be numerous times when either applause or laughter broke out but Obama did not share in it (again, because it was a repudiation of everything he has promoted for the last four years.)
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1004 » by montestewart » Fri Feb 8, 2013 2:35 am

It seems like you need Facebook to view the footage (or maybe my computer's lazy), but Popper, if you can step out of your partisan shoes for a moment, how does "Obama avoids people with views that don't comport with his own" differ markedly from the average, run-of-the-mill politician? Which Presidents would you characterize as enthusiastic seekers of contrary viewpoints?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1005 » by Nivek » Fri Feb 8, 2013 11:31 am

Not being popper or in the conservative press, it's less clear to me that Obama avoids people with differing views. I guess I could read Woodward's book to see what he has to say, but...life's too short. I think "y'all" may be correct, but that's because I think it's almost an inevitable result of being president. As chief executive, he chooses a staff that's going to execute his vision, at least to some extent. I guess for me to get worked up over Obama avoiding people with differing views, I'd have to a) know it was true, and then b) know how it differed from other presidents.

All that being said, I don't think we do a good job of interpreting motive or inner thoughts from a half-seen blank face.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1006 » by fishercob » Fri Feb 8, 2013 2:14 pm

popper wrote:
fishercob wrote:
popper wrote:
I guess silent indignation might be a better description. Pretty cool that your daughter met this accomplished man.


Interesting speech. You're seeing what you want to see. What type of facial expressions would be acceptable to you?


You are right to an extent. Obviously the speech was a repudiation of everything that Obama (the politician) stands for. It is also clear to me and those in the conservative press that Obama avoids people with views that don't comport with his own (Bob Woodward confirms this in his latest book). Therefore, with the exception of a smile during one of the lighter moments in the speech I observed that he sat in stone (but polite) silence. I can't prove that he was seething internally but that is my opinion (could be wrong of course).

Edit - there seemed to be numerous times when either applause or laughter broke out but Obama did not share in it (again, because it was a repudiation of everything he has promoted for the last four years.)


See, you miss one of the major points of the speech by saying "a repudiation of everything that Obama (the politician) stands for." It was nothing of the sort. Carson was stressing the importance of civil discourse and well-thought our argument on complex issues. So by offering alternatives to Obamacare, he wasn't repudiating, railing, or "slamming" as the blog post's headline led you to believe. He was offering his opinions, some of which disagreed with the President's. in a very respectful fashion.

It's ironic because the inflammatory headline runs precisely counter to the message of the speech, and if you read the comments section you can plainly see that all it did was to rile people up to think Obama's the devil.

He also offerred opinions very much in line with the President's, particularly with the respect to the importance of improving the education system.

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1007 » by popper » Fri Feb 8, 2013 2:26 pm

montestewart wrote:It seems like you need Facebook to view the footage (or maybe my computer's lazy), but Popper, if you can step out of your partisan shoes for a moment, how does "Obama avoids people with views that don't comport with his own" differ markedly from the average, run-of-the-mill politician? Which Presidents would you characterize as enthusiastic seekers of contrary viewpoints?


I don't mean to be partisan. I do have a viewpoint though and obviously advocate for it as best I can here and in other forums (not to say I haven't been mistaken on occasion and changed my outlook when confronted with new information).

I think Ronald Reagan was a president that made an effort to seek out individuals and ideas that differed from his own. He was once a liberal that converted to conservatism after analyzing, researching and writing about the great issues of the day. He and Tip ONeil disagreed on most issues but Reagan evidently enjoyed the debate and looked forward to their time together. Reagan was also good friends with many Hollywood liberals and would socialize with them frequently. Don't know that Obama ever socializes with or looks forward to debating those with different viewpoints.

I hazard to guess that Obama is not in the minority with his penchant for ideological isolation. Most people I know do not like to be confronted or forced to defend their beliefs in an open debate. I guess it's just human nature. I'm glad this forum likes to mix it up.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1008 » by Nivek » Fri Feb 8, 2013 2:34 pm

Popper: What's interesting to me in your post is that you say you don't know who Obama socializes with or whether he engages in debates/conversations with those who hold different views and then assert his "penchant for ideological isolation."

We don't know if he has such a penchant.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1009 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Feb 8, 2013 2:54 pm

Nivek wrote:
popper wrote:
Nivek wrote:"Glares in contempt"?

Wow. I didn't see that at all.

I admire Ben Carson, though. Someplace, I have a picture of the time my then-small daughter meeting him a few years back. His story is remarkable.


I guess silent indignation might be a better description. Pretty cool that your daughter met this accomplished man.


I don't think that's a better description either. I thought Obama listened politely.

Yeah, meeting Carson was cool for the entire family. My boys were too young to remember. She also met Bob Dole and John Glenn at book signings. Those were cool too.

Coolest "kid meets famous person" story just happened. My son got to meet Wynton Marsalis backstage at the Kennedy Center. Coolest exchange was this:

MARSALIS: What do you play? (gesturing at the instrument case on my son's back)

MY SON: Euphonium.

MARSALIS: I'd really like to hear you play. (turns to parents) You guys in a hurry?


Wynton seems to personify cool, Nivek. Did your son play for him?

I've only gone to one book signing: Jimmy Carter signed a book of his that I bought in Columbus, GA. He is a good at so many things I find it hard to fathom. The guy is has been everything from a Nuclear Sub commander, a peanut farmer, an author, a wood worker, an artist, a Sunday School teacher, to President. He is a gracious person, too! I felt like I was in the presence of greatness--I've never been that in awe of any person I have met.

My famous person story is that I was at Taste of Honolulu when my sons were real young. Mario Lopez was in the crowd and I hadn't noticed but he was right next to me in the crowd. He smiled and said, "Cute kid." That guy is really cool.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1010 » by Nivek » Fri Feb 8, 2013 3:29 pm

Did he play for him? That's a clown question bro!

;)

Yeah, he played. Well. Wynton's feedback was positive. :)
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1011 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Feb 8, 2013 3:38 pm

Nivek wrote:Did he play for him? That's a clown question bro!

;)

Yeah, he played. Well. Wynton's feedback was positive. :)


I feel like I bump set the ball just right for you to spike that, Nivek. (I can't jump to play volleyball in my present condition, but it's really popular here.) Your son is no doubt very talented and you've got every right to be proud Dad.

"That's a clown question, bro!" is right up there with "Straight cash, homey" as my all-time favorite athlete responses.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1012 » by popper » Fri Feb 8, 2013 4:01 pm

Nivek wrote:Popper: What's interesting to me in your post is that you say you don't know who Obama socializes with or whether he engages in debates/conversations with those who hold different views and then assert his "penchant for ideological isolation."

We don't know if he has such a penchant.


You are correct that we don't know for sure Nivek but we can make an educated guess. For instance, can you name one conservative that Obama socializes with on a regular basis? Bob Woodward, a Progressive, states in his book what I have repeated here. Ronald Reagan left reams of written arguments analyzing and justifying through dialectic his conversion to conservatism (they published them in a book). Obama's written thoughts and papers are sealed as are all other school information so that they can remain hidden from the public. Obama attended a church for more than twenty years that preached a very one-sided and insular philosophy that to my knowledge, left no room for dissent or reasoned debate.

I understand that most here will disagree with my position on the issue but at least you will hear a different viewpoint. My best friend is a Progressive. We hike the C&O canal once a week and argue about everything political. I enjoy it just as I enjoy hearing from this forum when they disagree with me (almost always) but I don't think Obama does.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1013 » by montestewart » Fri Feb 8, 2013 4:23 pm

Popper, maybe you're right about Reagan. While I recall him, in response to a question about AIDS, asserting that he doesn't know any homosexuals (never mind his wife's Dupont Circle hairdresser who visited the White House every two weeks), I also recall when Reagan died, Norman Lear (founder of liberal People for the American Way) commented that he and Reagan had been friends for years and that Reagan was always open to discussing his clearly differing views.

Perhaps Reagan's Hollywood background and some of his own children's loudly contrary views inured him to hearing a range of views. On the other hand, it may be that Reagan's background merely made him more comfortable (and publicly presentable) listening to alternative views with a deaf ear, as I don't recall any particular policy modifications that might have come from openness to contrary viewpoints. Oh, and Reagan on Woodward: "He is a liar," (from Reagan's diaries).
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1014 » by dobrojim » Fri Feb 8, 2013 4:29 pm

Nivek wrote:
popper wrote:
Nivek wrote:"Glares in contempt"?

Wow. I didn't see that at all.

I admire Ben Carson, though. Someplace, I have a picture of the time my then-small daughter meeting him a few years back. His story is remarkable.


I guess silent indignation might be a better description. Pretty cool that your daughter met this accomplished man.


I don't think that's a better description either. I thought Obama listened politely.

Yeah, meeting Carson was cool for the entire family. My boys were too young to remember. She also met Bob Dole and John Glenn at book signings. Those were cool too.

Coolest "kid meets famous person" story just happened. My son got to meet Wynton Marsalis backstage at the Kennedy Center. Coolest exchange was this:

MARSALIS: What do you play? (gesturing at the instrument case on my son's back)

MY SON: Euphonium.

MARSALIS: I'd really like to hear you play. (turns to parents) You guys in a hurry?


Very cool.

I find it soooo gratifying on the numerous times I've been able to meet
musical giants and learn firsthand that they are very down-to-earth humble
people.

So was your son able to play something?(oops, didn't read to the end of the
thread) Nerves could be overwhelming in that situation.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1015 » by popper » Fri Feb 8, 2013 5:00 pm

montestewart wrote:Popper, maybe you're right about Reagan. While I recall him, in response to a question about AIDS, asserting that he doesn't know any homosexuals (never mind his wife's Dupont Circle hairdresser who visited the White House every two weeks), I also recall when Reagan died, Norman Lear (founder of liberal People for the American Way) commented that he and Reagan had been friends for years and that Reagan was always open to discussing his clearly differing views.

Perhaps Reagan's Hollywood background and some of his own children's loudly contrary views inured him to hearing a range of views. On the other hand, it may be that Reagan's background merely made him more comfortable (and publicly presentable) listening to alternative views with a deaf ear, as I don't recall any particular policy modifications that might have come from openness to contrary viewpoints. Oh, and Reagan on Woodward: "He is a liar," (from Reagan's diaries).


I guess the most profound policy modification he made was in his conversion from Hollywood liberal to conservative. One can see through his writings that he was open to alternative views and, as a result, adopted a completely different mindset as to what works and what doesn't. Not saying he was perfect or that I agree with everything he did but he was a man that embraced the power of reason and debate to inform his actions.

As to Bob Woodward's veracity, I've been admonished on this thread more than once (not by you) for quoting conservative thinkers and journalists. Therefore I thought if I quoted a liberal journalist held in high esteem based on his work during the Watergate era then my audience would be more amenable to my point of view. The fact that Reagan called him a liar might lend even more weight to his opinions as they regard Obama's insularity.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1016 » by montestewart » Fri Feb 8, 2013 5:34 pm

Despite what Fox might say, progressive and journalist are not interchangeable terms. Woodward is not a Progressive. He's a former journalist who now merely writes and sells popular books. He has given a variety of answers through the years about his political affiliations, but he has always presented himself as politically moderate (neither extremely liberal nor extremely conservative).

And what is with Obama's school records? I thought Trump was the only one pushing that issue. Why are Obama's school records so important? It sounds like more of that hide-the-ball birth certificate business. The same goes for Obama's church.

You want to hide the ball? Reagan openly allied himself with Stalin's Soviet regime. He co-starred (with the notorious homosexual Errol Flynn) in a pro-Confederacy, pro-slavery movie called Santa Fe Trail. He was a communist sympathizer and a racist that consorted with known perverts, and yet he remains silent on these issues. Oh, and also, Reagan abused women:

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1017 » by fishercob » Fri Feb 8, 2013 5:41 pm

popper wrote:
montestewart wrote:Popper, maybe you're right about Reagan. While I recall him, in response to a question about AIDS, asserting that he doesn't know any homosexuals (never mind his wife's Dupont Circle hairdresser who visited the White House every two weeks), I also recall when Reagan died, Norman Lear (founder of liberal People for the American Way) commented that he and Reagan had been friends for years and that Reagan was always open to discussing his clearly differing views.

Perhaps Reagan's Hollywood background and some of his own children's loudly contrary views inured him to hearing a range of views. On the other hand, it may be that Reagan's background merely made him more comfortable (and publicly presentable) listening to alternative views with a deaf ear, as I don't recall any particular policy modifications that might have come from openness to contrary viewpoints. Oh, and Reagan on Woodward: "He is a liar," (from Reagan's diaries).


I guess the most profound policy modification he made was in his conversion from Hollywood liberal to conservative. One can see through his writings that he was open to alternative views and, as a result, adopted a completely different mindset as to what works and what doesn't. Not saying he was perfect or that I agree with everything he did but he was a man that embraced the power of reason and debate to inform his actions.

As to Bob Woodward's veracity, I've been admonished on this thread more than once (not by you) for quoting conservative thinkers and journalists. Therefore I thought if I quoted a liberal journalist held in high esteem based on his work during the Watergate era then my audience would be more amenable to my point of view. The fact that Reagan called him a liar might lend even more weight to his opinions as they regard Obama's insularity.


Popper, please expound on "Hollywood Liberal." What does that phrase mean? Who are these people? What do they believe in? What do they represent?

I contend that it is these types of constructs that go exactly counter to the level of discourse advocated in the very speech that you posted.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1018 » by DCZards » Fri Feb 8, 2013 5:57 pm

popper wrote:
Obama attended a church for more than twenty years that preached a very one-sided and insular philosophy that to my knowledge, left no room for dissent or reasoned debate.


Popper, Obama attended a church not unlike the one I sometime attend here in the DC area. I can assure you that the philosophy is far from insular...and that debate is often lively and diverse.

I've heard Obama's former Chicago pastor, Jeremiah Wright, preach on a couple of occasions. Like me, he's a grad of Howard U and he returns to HU annually to deliver a sermon at the school's Rankin Chapel. If Rev. Wright is guilty of anything, it's being brutally honest about (past and present) race relations in this country.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1019 » by popper » Fri Feb 8, 2013 6:00 pm

montestewart wrote:Despite what Fox might say, progressive and journalist are not interchangeable terms. Woodward is not a Progressive. He's a former journalist who now merely writes and sells popular books. He has given a variety of answers through the years about his political affiliations, but he has always presented himself as politically moderate (neither extremely liberal nor extremely conservative).

And what is with Obama's school records? I thought Trump was the only one pushing that issue. Why are Obama's school records so important? It sounds like more of that hide-the-ball birth certificate business. The same goes for Obama's church.

You want to hide the ball? Reagan openly allied himself with Stalin's Soviet regime. He co-starred (with the notorious homosexual Errol Flynn) in a pro-Confederacy, pro-slavery movie called Santa Fe Trail. He was a communist sympathizer and a racist that consorted with known perverts, and yet he remains silent on these issues. Oh, and also, Reagan abused women:

Image


I can't despute Woodward's description of himself. Maybe he's not a Progressive ..... maybe I'm wrong. But for decades he was a hero of Progressives (that's why I quoted him instead of a conservative). Regarding school records and the church he attended we may disagree on what is and what is not fair game in assessing a potential president. I know that many job applicants must furnish their college transcripts to a potential employer to be considered. I believe this and other school records can be helpful in understanding an applicants commitment, thought process, etc. I accept that you disagree. No problem.

Likewise on the church, synogogue, mosque or social institution one attends. What is the overarching philosophy of that institution? This is information that I would like to have before making a decision on a president. Again, I'm cool with others that don't want or need that information but I'd rather err on the side of too much info vs. too little.

I'm not trying to hide any ball. I'm being as clear and concise as I know how to be.

Interesting stuff on Reagan. I was not aware of most of it.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1020 » by popper » Fri Feb 8, 2013 6:06 pm

fishercob wrote:
popper wrote:
montestewart wrote:Popper, maybe you're right about Reagan. While I recall him, in response to a question about AIDS, asserting that he doesn't know any homosexuals (never mind his wife's Dupont Circle hairdresser who visited the White House every two weeks), I also recall when Reagan died, Norman Lear (founder of liberal People for the American Way) commented that he and Reagan had been friends for years and that Reagan was always open to discussing his clearly differing views.

Perhaps Reagan's Hollywood background and some of his own children's loudly contrary views inured him to hearing a range of views. On the other hand, it may be that Reagan's background merely made him more comfortable (and publicly presentable) listening to alternative views with a deaf ear, as I don't recall any particular policy modifications that might have come from openness to contrary viewpoints. Oh, and Reagan on Woodward: "He is a liar," (from Reagan's diaries).


I guess the most profound policy modification he made was in his conversion from Hollywood liberal to conservative. One can see through his writings that he was open to alternative views and, as a result, adopted a completely different mindset as to what works and what doesn't. Not saying he was perfect or that I agree with everything he did but he was a man that embraced the power of reason and debate to inform his actions.

As to Bob Woodward's veracity, I've been admonished on this thread more than once (not by you) for quoting conservative thinkers and journalists. Therefore I thought if I quoted a liberal journalist held in high esteem based on his work during the Watergate era then my audience would be more amenable to my point of view. The fact that Reagan called him a liar might lend even more weight to his opinions as they regard Obama's insularity.


Popper, please expound on "Hollywood Liberal." What does that phrase mean? Who are these people? What do they believe in? What do they represent?

I contend that it is these types of constructs that go exactly counter to the level of discourse advocated in the very speech that you posted.


Fair point and good question. Let me think about that for awhile and I'll try to respond before the day is done.

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