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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#981 » by fishercob » Thu Feb 7, 2013 3:18 pm

As a socially liberal independent, I continue to be disappointed in Obama for his refusal to address the debt situation, particularly as it relates to entitlements. And when I say "address," I don't just mean "do something about it," I mean that Democrats won't even engage in an honest discussion about it. If the debt is not a problem the way Republican leaders are (and have been) warning, then say so and explain why!

Republicans bear plenty of responsibility for this though -- as long as they're fighting gay marriage, reproductive rights and Big Bird, while kowtowing to the ridiculous gun lobby, the Democrats can sidestep the hard questions on the debt and rile up their base about these other issues. Both parties suck.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#982 » by nate33 » Thu Feb 7, 2013 3:48 pm

fishercob wrote:As a socially liberal independent, I continue to be disappointed in Obama for his refusal to address the debt situation, particularly as it relates to entitlements. And when I say "address," I don't just mean "do something about it," I mean that Democrats won't even engage in an honest discussion about it. If the debt is not a problem the way Republican leaders are (and have been) warning, then say so and explain why!

Republicans bear plenty of responsibility for this though -- as long as they're fighting gay marriage, reproductive rights and Big Bird, while kowtowing to the ridiculous gun lobby, the Democrats can sidestep the hard questions on the debt and rile up their base about these other issues. Both parties suck.

When it comes to the debt issue, I'm resigned to the fate that neither party has the cajones to do what it takes to fix it. We need massive cuts in spending, and modest increases in taxation (contrary to liberal belief, massive increase in taxation is not an option because it will result in capital flight and less tax revenue). Nobody wants to hear this, so politicians will continue to sidestep the issue. It will only be resolved when the markets lose faith in the dollar and interest rates skyrocket. I don't know when that is going to happen, but I know it WILL happen.

If there was a political solution to this, Ron Paul would have garnered more of the vote. He didn't. Clearly, the public wants to stick their head in the sand. Politicians will be happy to oblige them. I don't really even blame the politicians. They're just acting like politicians always do. Their goal is to get re-elected first, all other considerations are secondary.

What will ultimately happen is a collapse in savings. When the dollar crashes, it won't destroy the economy. It will merely destroy the "savings" that people think they have in social security, medicare, pensions and 401Ks. These savings are an illusion.

People won't be retiring at age 65 anymore.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#983 » by fishercob » Thu Feb 7, 2013 5:17 pm

I appreciate the honesty that Paul brought -- or tried to bring -- the the discourse, but I could never vote for him. I think he perverts the notion of liberty to mean a complete absence of all regulation, and I believe that most if not all industry needs a healthy amount of regulation to keep consumers and citizens safe. A lot of his positions are not just politically untenable, but they're wildly impractical. I think it's possible to be an honest reformer without being a radical.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#984 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Feb 7, 2013 5:30 pm

2050 or so... that's when Social Security will run out of money and we'll have to start defaulting on our social security payments.

It'lll be a really slow process... our credit rating will be lowered once or twice a decade, our interest rates will go up, investment will slow down, innovation will slow down, and productivity growth will slow down. But so will everybody else's, so I don't know if we'll notice that we're significantly worse off. We'll just wake up in 2070 and go "huh! when did we become England?"

England's not such a bad place to be, economically. Used to be a superpower, now just... you know... England.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#985 » by dobrojim » Thu Feb 7, 2013 6:06 pm

nate33 wrote:
fishercob wrote:As a socially liberal independent, I continue to be disappointed in Obama for his refusal to address the debt situation, particularly as it relates to entitlements. And when I say "address," I don't just mean "do something about it," I mean that Democrats won't even engage in an honest discussion about it. If the debt is not a problem the way Republican leaders are (and have been) warning, then say so and explain why!

Republicans bear plenty of responsibility for this though -- as long as they're fighting gay marriage, reproductive rights and Big Bird, while kowtowing to the ridiculous gun lobby, the Democrats can sidestep the hard questions on the debt and rile up their base about these other issues. Both parties suck.

When it comes to the debt issue, I'm resigned to the fate that neither party has the cajones to do what it takes to fix it. We need massive cuts in spending, and modest increases in taxation (contrary to liberal belief, massive increase in taxation is not an option because it will result in capital flight and less tax revenue). Nobody wants to hear this, so politicians will continue to sidestep the issue. It will only be resolved when the markets lose faith in the dollar and interest rates skyrocket. I don't know when that is going to happen, but I know it WILL happen.

If there was a political solution to this, Ron Paul would have garnered more of the vote. He didn't. Clearly, the public wants to stick their head in the sand. Politicians will be happy to oblige them. I don't really even blame the politicians. They're just acting like politicians always do. Their goal is to get re-elected first, all other considerations are secondary.

What will ultimately happen is a collapse in savings. When the dollar crashes, it won't destroy the economy. It will merely destroy the "savings" that people think they have in social security, medicare, pensions and 401Ks. These savings are an illusion.

People won't be retiring at age 65 anymore.


the only place we /really/ need massive cuts in is DoD.

modest adjustments to SocSec are all that is needed there

re health insurance, we have to stop allowing private for profit companies
to skim 30% off the top. Medicare's overhead is like 2.5%.

also the original question is about the likelihood of an imminent (2013) collapse.
Not buying it.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#986 » by popper » Thu Feb 7, 2013 7:21 pm

I don't know whether anyone knows or cares about the Bengazi testimony today given by Panetta. It strikes me as very strange behavior by the President and Sect. of State.

Panetta testifies that he spoke with with Obama at 5 pm and Obama gave him full operational control of future action in Bengazi. Later in the evening Obama phones the Israel PM to talk about whatever - some speculate it was a political conversation but not sure.

Panetta testifies that at no time during the Bengazi attack (a six or eight hour period I think) did he or any other DOD bigwig talk to Sect. Clinton.


If just surprises me that the President and Sect. of State were not fully engaged as the attack and subsequent murders were taking place.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#987 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Feb 7, 2013 7:28 pm

uh, why? for a DOD bigwig to talk to Sec. Clinton implies a formal briefing that takes preparation (and facts to present). As long as they only had incomplete information I can see why the only communication would be at the staff level.

Hard to gauge whether they were "fully engaged" from that ...
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#988 » by dobrojim » Thu Feb 7, 2013 7:59 pm

popper wrote:I don't know whether anyone knows or cares about the Bengazi testimony today given by Panetta. It strikes me as very strange behavior by the President and Sect. of State.

Panetta testifies that he spoke with with Obama at 5 pm and Obama gave him full operational control of future action in Bengazi. Later in the evening Obama phones the Israel PM to talk about whatever - some speculate it was a political conversation but not sure.

Panetta testifies that at no time during the Bengazi attack (a six or eight hour period I think) did he or any other DOD bigwig talk to Sect. Clinton.


If just surprises me that the President and Sect. of State were not fully engaged as the attack and subsequent murders were taking place.


what is your premise?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#989 » by hands11 » Thu Feb 7, 2013 8:13 pm

nate33 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:I've met someone who claims to have served as a sniper. I've spoken to guys who claimed to be Navy Seals. An acquaintance who was an infantry troop told me of how pulling the trigger (and you don't unless you're following rules of engagement, and when you generally have a target) didn't phase him any more. This guy is someone I would call a good family man.

I bring that up in the wake of Chris Kyle, a man who professed to have killed 160 people was himself killed.

Ron Paul, himself a Vietnam era veteran, and the only Congressman who opposed invading Iraq back in 2003, made some very unkind statements. He said treating a man with PTSD by taking him to the firing range is dumb. He also said something scathing, that a man who lived by the sword died by the sword.

My first thoughts are there is a time and a place to speak, and that's not the time. Ron Paul's comments were unnecessary, harsh, insensitive, and put the spotlight on himself and his unsolicited opinion. That said, a part of me wonders how many of those 160 people were just in the wrong place at the wrong time? I wonder if the PTSD guy had guilt over killing innocents? Did he merely do it out of psychosis and a desire to steal a truck? Why was there no range official with a weapon behind the shooter? How did Chris Kyle let that happen to him? There is a such thing as too much trust!

Last, does Paul have any moral ground to justify what he has said? I think the man has hated the US wars abroad and that he is privy to a lot of information the average citizen doesn't know. There are soldiers who will kill anything that moves. (I have heard some real horror stories). Chris Kyle was proud of his service but others would never brag about killing. I wonder if that is what set Paul off, or is he just older and crankier than most?

I really like Ron Paul and almost every position that he holds, but I've always had a problem with his anti-war rhetoric. While I agree with him in principle that we are engaged in way too many conflicts overseas, I never liked the way he attacked our policies as blatantly evil, immoral and intentional. It's not like we have soldiers who are shooting innocent civilians indiscriminately just for the fun of it.

I always though Ron Paul would have had a much broader appeal within the Republican base if he stuck with attacking our war policies on economic and Constitutional principles, rather than moral ones. Whether true or not, Americans don't want to be told that they are evil or immoral.


He actually has it right. Its all of those reasons. Moral ones included.

If you take off your America does no evil glasses, you will find we have done some pretty terrible things and for no better then corporate imperial reasons. Now I am not an anti war at all cost person. I know sometimes you have to do that but it should be a last resort.

I have issues with R Paul, but his anti war US strong arming other countries isn't one of them. I always thought R Paul would make a better Dem then R but I am happy he is a R because at least he can influence that party to a more sane position on War. They need it more then the Dems do. As for his son. I don't have the same respect for him as I do his father.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#990 » by fishercob » Thu Feb 7, 2013 8:27 pm

popper wrote:I don't know whether anyone knows or cares about the Bengazi testimony today given by Panetta. It strikes me as very strange behavior by the President and Sect. of State.

Panetta testifies that he spoke with with Obama at 5 pm and Obama gave him full operational control of future action in Bengazi. Later in the evening Obama phones the Israel PM to talk about whatever - some speculate it was a political conversation but not sure.

Panetta testifies that at no time during the Bengazi attack (a six or eight hour period I think) did he or any other DOD bigwig talk to Sect. Clinton.


If just surprises me that the President and Sect. of State were not fully engaged as the attack and subsequent murders were taking place.


The noise over Benghazi is pure partisanship. And if it happened on the GOP's watch, the Dem's would similarly be making it into something bigger than it is. Bad guys killed American officials. It's terrible -- truly. It's also a fact of life in the world we live in. Did the administration try to minimize it in it's immediate aftermath? I'm sure they did. They may have even lied a little in the process. Big deal. Steps should be taken to minimize the risk of these types of things happening in the future, but they can't be prevented. This isn't a scandal and our leaders should be focusing on issues much more central to the lives of the American people.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#991 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Feb 7, 2013 8:57 pm

Well, it is a scandal. They flat out lied and they shouldn't have. Shame on them.

But if Bush can get away with flat out lying about WMDs, is it fair to stick it to the Obama administration for something that is a lot, lot less bad? There's a big difference between lying about Benghazi because it's a month before the election and lying about WMD's to fool the nation and the world into a war against Iraq under false pretenses. One is a shameful scandal, the other is downright, terrifyingly Orwellian, and the only punishment the evil, evil perpetrators got is that they didn't get to be President for 8 years.

It's a scandal. But come on.

To me the much bigger scandal is when Breitbart lied about Shirley Sherrod (hey, it's their job to lie, fine) and the administration reflexively fired her with absolutely no justification whatsoever. That's what the Democratic party is all about, right there -- cowardice and incompetence. I think the USDA secretary should have been fired for that.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#992 » by dobrojim » Thu Feb 7, 2013 8:58 pm

what was the lie?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#993 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Feb 7, 2013 9:00 pm

dobrojim wrote:what was the lie?


which one? I mentioned two.

Remember that thing about the black USDA employee who got fired for saying she withheld services from a white farmer because of his race? And it turned out Breitbart had deliberately and maliciously edited a video of her that completely changed the meaning of what she said?

That lie.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#994 » by popper » Thu Feb 7, 2013 9:42 pm

dobrojim wrote:
popper wrote:I don't know whether anyone knows or cares about the Bengazi testimony today given by Panetta. It strikes me as very strange behavior by the President and Sect. of State.

Panetta testifies that he spoke with with Obama at 5 pm and Obama gave him full operational control of future action in Bengazi. Later in the evening Obama phones the Israel PM to talk about whatever - some speculate it was a political conversation but not sure.

Panetta testifies that at no time during the Bengazi attack (a six or eight hour period I think) did he or any other DOD bigwig talk to Sect. Clinton.


If just surprises me that the President and Sect. of State were not fully engaged as the attack and subsequent murders were taking place.


what is your premise?


If I were the leader of a corporation and some staff were under violent attack in a foreign country I would feel obligated to be hands-on throughout the ordeal (much like Ross Perot was when his people were taken hostage in Iran). But that's just me.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#995 » by popper » Thu Feb 7, 2013 9:50 pm

fishercob wrote:
popper wrote:I don't know whether anyone knows or cares about the Bengazi testimony today given by Panetta. It strikes me as very strange behavior by the President and Sect. of State.

Panetta testifies that he spoke with with Obama at 5 pm and Obama gave him full operational control of future action in Bengazi. Later in the evening Obama phones the Israel PM to talk about whatever - some speculate it was a political conversation but not sure.

Panetta testifies that at no time during the Bengazi attack (a six or eight hour period I think) did he or any other DOD bigwig talk to Sect. Clinton.


If just surprises me that the President and Sect. of State were not fully engaged as the attack and subsequent murders were taking place.


The noise over Benghazi is pure partisanship. And if it happened on the GOP's watch, the Dem's would similarly be making it into something bigger than it is. Bad guys killed American officials. It's terrible -- truly. It's also a fact of life in the world we live in. Did the administration try to minimize it in it's immediate aftermath? I'm sure they did. They may have even lied a little in the process. Big deal. Steps should be taken to minimize the risk of these types of things happening in the future, but they can't be prevented. This isn't a scandal and our leaders should be focusing on issues much more central to the lives of the American people.


The lives of American people were the central issue in the Bengazi attack and some of us wish our response could have been more effective. Not saying that it could have been (I just don't know) and I agree with you that "lessons learned" can hopefully prevent future tragedy.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#996 » by popper » Thu Feb 7, 2013 9:54 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
dobrojim wrote:what was the lie?


which one? I mentioned two.

Remember that thing about the black USDA employee who got fired for saying she withheld services from a white farmer because of his race? And it turned out Breitbart had deliberately and maliciously edited a video of her that completely changed the meaning of what she said?

That lie.


I remember and Breitbart was guilty of editing the video as you say.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#997 » by nate33 » Thu Feb 7, 2013 9:59 pm

hands11 wrote:
nate33 wrote:I really like Ron Paul and almost every position that he holds, but I've always had a problem with his anti-war rhetoric. While I agree with him in principle that we are engaged in way too many conflicts overseas, I never liked the way he attacked our policies as blatantly evil, immoral and intentional. It's not like we have soldiers who are shooting innocent civilians indiscriminately just for the fun of it.

I always though Ron Paul would have had a much broader appeal within the Republican base if he stuck with attacking our war policies on economic and Constitutional principles, rather than moral ones. Whether true or not, Americans don't want to be told that they are evil or immoral.


He actually has it right. Its all of those reasons. Moral ones included.

If you take off your America does no evil glasses, you will find we have done some pretty terrible things and for no better then corporate imperial reasons. Now I am not an anti war at all cost person. I know sometimes you have to do that but it should be a last resort.

I have issues with R Paul, but his anti war US strong arming other countries isn't one of them. I always thought R Paul would make a better Dem then R but I am happy he is a R because at least he can influence that party to a more sane position on War. They need it more then the Dems do. As for his son. I don't have the same respect for him as I do his father.

You missed my point. I'm not saying Paul doesn't have a point with his moral argument against our foreign policy. I'm saying he has to pay attention to his audience. Republicans don't want to hear that they are morally wrong. It's not going to win them over. If Paul was serious about making changes, he should have emphasized the economic and constitutional arguments against our foreign policy. There are plenty of Republicans who are sympathetic to that approach.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#998 » by popper » Thu Feb 7, 2013 10:06 pm

Attention All Progressives

If you do one thing today please watch the following speech. Two great men, side-by-side, with opposite visions for the country. One speaks from the heart while the other glares in contempt (my opinion). You decide.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2 ... ont-Of-Him
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#999 » by Nivek » Thu Feb 7, 2013 10:28 pm

"Glares in contempt"?

Wow. I didn't see that at all.

I admire Ben Carson, though. Someplace, I have a picture of the time my then-small daughter meeting him a few years back. His story is remarkable.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1000 » by popper » Thu Feb 7, 2013 10:49 pm

Nivek wrote:"Glares in contempt"?

Wow. I didn't see that at all.

I admire Ben Carson, though. Someplace, I have a picture of the time my then-small daughter meeting him a few years back. His story is remarkable.


I guess silent indignation might be a better description. Pretty cool that your daughter met this accomplished man.

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