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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1061 » by pineappleheadindc » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:14 pm

P.S. To Republicans here. Do you think Christie has a shot to get out of the primaries.

Christie may be a liberal's worst nightmare. (Though Severn identifies Daniels correctly as being good for the GOP's appealing to the general electorate too.....but in this media-driven universe now, it's (sadly) important to have a little TV star quality. I wonder if Daniels has that?)
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1062 » by dobrojim » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:20 pm

Christie is the guy who could win the general for the GOP.
Whether he can get to that point is an open question and a long way off.
At this point in time, it's hard to come up with many other plausible GOP candidates.
Maybe Jeb.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1063 » by dobrojim » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:31 pm

read this piece by Glenn Greenwald http://tinyurl.com/bxvzm9x earlier
today including a bunch of the comments afterwards many of which seemed to be from
righties who complained that lefties won't criticize Obama for Exec power grabs.
Not sure how true that is generally and will say right here, it's not true of this
'lefty'. This kind of thing is just as wrong when Obama does it as when Bush did it.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

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Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1064 » by Severn Hoos » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:35 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:
Severn Hoos wrote:pine, thank you for posting - you are the glimmer of hope that keeps me (occasionally) still checking in to this thread. That said, two points, by way of suggestion/request:

1. If you start a sentence with "though you may think this is ideological I'm trying to be objective", you probably shouldn't end it with a term like "Teahadist." Just saying, it kinda undercuts the first statement. I used to hate it when Rush Limbaugh used the term "Feminazis" for a number of reasons, but the two most prominent are that it minimizes the evil of actual Nazis, and in the end it just undermined his own position. I'm not saying I'm offended by the term, just that by using it you are telegraphing that anyone who is even sympathetic to the very real concerns raised by the Tea Party is not worthy of consideration.

2. I prefer precision about "cuts" versus "reduced rates of increased spending". I can't speak to the specifics of the current situation, but often what is labeled as a "cut" is actually a reduction from, say a 10% year-over-year increase to a 5% increase.

That said, I do agree with you about the unwillingness to compromise (which, naturally, I believe goes both ways). My preferred candidate in 2012 would have been Mitch Daniels, who got in trouble for not "toeing the line" for the conservative purists. Unfortunately, given the incentives in place, I don't see much changing in the near future...


LOL -- completely fair points to which I yield to you, Severn!

:-)



See, political compromise and civility is possible, after all! :beer:


To answer you & jim on Christie - I do agree that he has a better shot at winning the General than just about anyone else in the GOP. (BTW, I think Jeb would already be President today if he had any other last name, but that's a discussion for another time.) And, I think it's possible - or at least I could see a scenario - where he got through the Primaries.

First off, don't underestimate the anxiety Conservatives will have about getting back in power, especially if Hillary is looking like the Dem. nominee. They've talked themselves into getting behind Romney, McCain, Bush 41 - even Bob Dole! - when they want to be sure that a perceived Liberal is on the other side of the ticket. I could see them talking themselves into getting behind Christie, with his tough-guy, straight-talker persona to put up against Mrs. Clinton. Second, he could team up with a conservative hero like Rubio or Rand Paul, which is what the moderate Republican nominees have always tried. (Not that it's worked out for them, but if Christie signalled he was looking that way, it could really help him to close the deal in the primaries.) And lastly, if it's starting to look like Christie has a real shot at the nomination, the knives will come out at him - not the least of which will be about his weight. And if conservatives get the feeling that the media is against him, it might make them trust him more (the enemy of my enemy and all that). Which takes us back to point #1, above.

I wouldn't put it at better-than-even odds just yet (assuming he even runs at all), but I definitely wouldn't rule it out, either.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1065 » by pineappleheadindc » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:41 pm

dobrojim wrote:read this piece by Glenn Greenwald http://tinyurl.com/bxvzm9x earlier
today including a bunch of the comments afterwards many of which seemed to be from
righties who complained that lefties won't criticize Obama for Exec power grabs.
Not sure how true that is generally and will say right here, it's not true of this
'lefty'. This kind of thing is just as wrong when Obama does it as when Bush did it.



Agree with you, Jim. 100%
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1066 » by popper » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:17 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:P.S. To Republicans here. Do you think Christie has a shot to get out of the primaries.

Christie may be a liberal's worst nightmare. (Though Severn identifies Daniels correctly as being good for the GOP's appealing to the general electorate too.....but in this media-driven universe now, it's (sadly) important to have a little TV star quality. I wonder if Daniels has that?)


I'm a conservative and I'm not optimistic that any Republican can win another Presidential election until the economy goes into a full scale nose dive. I realize that doesn't answer the Christie question but even if he did get through the primary what does he have to offer other than either austerity or perpetual pump-priming (our current policy). If people and Wall Street are happy with the status quo (and it appears enough of them are) then no Republican stands a chance IMO. NJ was dysfunctional and on a severe downward slide when Christie took over and until the US is perceived to be on the same trajectory there is insufficient impetus to change the party in power. Since states can't prime the pump to the degree the federal govt. can, they are easier targets for changing the party in power.

I suspect we will muddle along for a while until another economic calamity occurs and then be forced to adopt austerity measures to right the ship of state. The Fed chief just testified that he will continue pumping $85 Billion a month into the economy until he feels it is doing more harm than good (i.e. the beginning of the nose dive). Sorry for the long winded post .... my short answer should have been yes, Christie has a chance to win the primary just as the moderate Romney did.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1067 » by nate33 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:25 pm

Good post, popper. As long as the Fed can camouflage our problems by printing money, the status quo can remain unchanged for a while yet. Significant changes won't occur until the Great Default takes place and the dollar collapses. I'm not sure when it's going to happen. Frankly, I can't comprehend why anybody buys Treasuries right now when we have a debt that looks like Greece writ large and we haven't truly balanced the budget since the Eisenhower administration.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1068 » by hands11 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:15 am

pineappleheadindc wrote:.

It's almost sequester time. At this stage in the game, there's no doubt that we'll at least be testing the waters of sequestration cuts. How long we're there is anyone's guess.

That we're hitting sequestration is a complete and total example of nobody talking to each other. And, though you may think this is ideological I'm trying to be objective, I blame the conservative media and the Teahadists. Republicans are actually afraid to do business with President Obama. They'll get primaried. Hell, CPAC didn't invite Chris Christie - a guy with a totally conservative policy record in NJ (attacked teachers unions, pro-life, not a real bleeding heart on illegal immigration)....that's a BLUE state. And he's got a public approval record in that blue state that's higher than Jesus. But work with the President for natural disaster relief of your own people and you're a RINO. And, you're supporting a marxist, socialist, Kenyan, who was only elected thanks to a (nonexistant) ACORN.

Point is, sequestration is stupid because the cuts don't come where they should (excepting some cuts to Defense, and the meat axe approach there is stupid). By exempting the vast majority of the Federal budget (social welfare programs), Congress missed the mark completely. And I thought Republicans WANTED to work on the impending deficit caused by these programs.

In his sequester replacement plan available on the White House website, one of the President's proposals is something that liberals hate. Chained CPI. In a normal world, even if you disagreed with everything else, you'd take that (Republicans), give him something small for his side, then propose the next thing (in concert with chained CPI)....raising the retirement age? means testing? Whatever. You'd chip away at the problem together, step-by-step, until you've made progress. Can't get all the way there in terms of deficit reduction? Not probs, you lock in what you have now then wait for the next opportunity to do more together.

Step by step, back and forth, eating the elephant one bite at a time. THAT'S the way to solve difficult problems needing collaborative response.

But, if you can't even get aid from the President for people flooded out of their homes and living in tents in wintertime without being attacked from your side, how are you going to work with the President on big things?

My dos centavos.


Now what was ideological about that ?
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1069 » by hands11 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:28 am

dobrojim wrote:I thought Boehner got 98% of what he wanted. Now he's acting like
he thinks this is horrible.

Ryan and the Mittster ran on a platform of closing loopholes
and reform (supposedly) to generate > revenues.

As per segment on Maddox, reducing spending is popular until
you actually say what it is you propose to reduce spending on.
The most popular thing (to reduce) is foreign aid which amounts to < 1% of
of the budget. Few, if any, generally described areas of the budget garner
> 50% approval in polling for spending cuts.

Biggest problem in Washington isn't 'in' Washington. It's gerrymandering.


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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1070 » by Severn Hoos » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:36 am

hands, are you really that lacking in self-awareness? I'm not trying to be mean or funny, because you show some real insight on the basketball-related threads. But over here, the constant one-sided diatribes compounded with self-congratulation about how unbiased you are really make me wonder.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1071 » by crackhed » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:58 am

sometimes emotions can get involved with politics, and when that happens mr reason says i'll catch up with u later
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1072 » by hands11 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:58 am

Severn Hoos wrote:hands, are you really that lacking in self-awareness? I'm not trying to be mean or funny, because you show some real insight on the basketball-related threads. But over here, the constant one-sided diatribes compounded with self-congratulation about how unbiased you are really make me wonder.


Liken up Sev

Take about your views on the topic. Keep the personal attack stuff out. Its against board rules and guidelines.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1073 » by Severn Hoos » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:00 pm

Don't worry hands, I'm not mad - take a look at my posts with pine and you'll see how people of different political stripes can be not just civil but truly respectful and even friendly in their posts. I'll offer you a few comments, you of course are free to accept them or not - but hey are not intended in any way to be a personal attack. If you see it as a friendly suggestion, that's great. If not, feel free to put me on ignore.

1. If you want to be taken seriously, stop with the stuff like calling the Speaker of the House "Boner". Frankly, it's rather juvenile, and signals that you're less interested in dialog than in scoring a cheap point.
2. If you want to be taken seriously, just admit to who you are. pine and dobrojim are as liberal as they come on this board, and they acknowledge it up front (pine actually prefers to be called a Progressive). I have much more respect for that approach than for the person who claims not to be partisan and yet always seems to come down on one side - or more importantly, against one side.
3. "Personal attack stuff" can come in lots of forms. Consider that there are Republicans/Conservatives reading your posts when you talk about how crazy or evil or whatever "Rs" are. By extension, that could be taken as a personal attack (or shall we say, insult). Try this approach: Next time you're about to make a blanket statement, replace the word "Republican" or "Conservative" with "Muslim" or "Jew" or whatever other group you might think of. Would you still type it?

I'm sorry for being harsh last night - I guess I just overreacted after a bad Wizards loss... ;-)
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1074 » by hands11 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:23 pm

Severn Hoos wrote:Don't worry hands, I'm not mad - take a look at my posts with pine and you'll see how people of different political stripes can be not just civil but truly respectful and even friendly in their posts. I'll offer you a few comments, you of course are free to accept them or not - but they are not intended in any way to be a personal attack. If you see it as a friendly suggestion, that's great. If not, feel free to put me on ignore.

1. If you want to be taken seriously, stop with the stuff like calling the Speaker of the House "Boner". Frankly, it's rather juvenile, and signals that you're less interested in dialog than in scoring a cheap point.
2. If you want to be taken seriously, just admit to who you are. pine and dobrojim are as liberal as they come on this board, and they acknowledge it up front (pine actually prefers to be called a Progressive). I have much more respect for that approach than for the person who claims not to be partisan and yet always seems to come down on one side - or more importantly, against one side.
3. "Personal attack stuff" can come in lots of forms. Consider that there are Republicans/Conservatives reading your posts when you talk about how crazy or evil or whatever "Rs" are. By extension, that could be taken as a personal attack (or shall we say, insult). Try this approach: Next time you're about to make a blanket statement, replace the word "Republican" or "Conservative" with "Muslim" or "Jew" or whatever other group you might think of. Would you still type it?

I'm sorry for being harsh last night - I guess I just overreacted after a bad Wizards loss... ;-)


Pop and I interact all the time just fine. He even invited me to the farm to help plant crops. Maybe you read what I write with a bias. I have said numerious times, my best friend is an R. I would trust him with my life. We respect and like each other beyond our political views. The person in my family I am closest to is a evangelical conservative.

Look, I call it like I see it. I understand that can be hard hitting to some. These are not face to face conversation where I can pick how I say things and the timing of it depending on the who I an speaking to and their mod that day.

Look. I understand the dynamic here. I understand there are sub groups. People are going to read curtain things I posts with a bias. I get it. But don't be to quick to assume the same is not done to you as well. Please don't take this the wrong way but your advice, while pre-empted with a friendly note, does sound a bit arrogant and presumptive. "If I want to be taken seriously" wow. Think about what you wrote there for a moment. I think what you might have meant was, "If I wanted to be taken seriously by you and other like you." Secondly, if you are trying to promote non-name calling, its probably best not to do it while you are asking for it to be stopped. Something to consider.

As for who I am, I have already done that too many times to count; for those that like the labels.

Hey, I post information that I hope will get people to think. Some is for the like minded folks and some if for everyone. As I learn stuff, I try to share it. Example, there was a post mentioning Gerrymandering recently. I know a little about it but it got me to Google it and I learned more. I found a video and I posted it. I enjoy learning new things and sharing the information. Its a two way street.

As for me calling Boehner ... Boner. Its because I have very little respect for the man. If you do and that bothers you then I can see how might might bother you. I guess its not very PC but my God, I have to be PC all day at work. Do I have to do it here as well ? I can try to hold back from doing it but he really pisses me off. I guess Tan Man wouldn't work either then. Besides, I hate trying to remember how to spell his name and we all know what happens when I spell something wrong. Boner is just easier to spell. I guess I would do Boner (sp) :)
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1075 » by Severn Hoos » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:42 pm

Perhaps you're right. I promise to no longer read that which you write with a bias.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1076 » by dobrojim » Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:38 pm

3. "Personal attack stuff" can come in lots of forms. Consider that there are Republicans/Conservatives reading your posts when you talk about how crazy or evil or whatever "Rs" are. By extension, that could be taken as a personal attack (or shall we say, insult). Try this approach: Next time you're about to make a blanket statement, replace the word "Republican" or "Conservative" with "Muslim" or "Jew" or whatever other group you might think of. Would you still type it?


thank you for that Sev. Good thought. I'll try to do better on this front
than I may have done in the past.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1077 » by hands11 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:52 pm

crackhed wrote:sometimes emotions can get involved with politics, and when that happens mr reason says i'll catch up with u later


So very true.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1078 » by Severn Hoos » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:03 pm

Thanks, jim - I appreciate the sentiment, although truly, I don't recall you doing that in the past. And I do know I've been guilty of that myself, at least in thought if not in pixels. Cheers!
"A society that puts equality - in the sense of equality of outcome - ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom. The use of force to achieve equality will destroy freedom" Milton Friedman, Free to Choose
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1079 » by hands11 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:14 pm

dobrojim wrote:
3. "Personal attack stuff" can come in lots of forms. Consider that there are Republicans/Conservatives reading your posts when you talk about how crazy or evil or whatever "Rs" are. By extension, that could be taken as a personal attack (or shall we say, insult). Try this approach: Next time you're about to make a blanket statement, replace the word "Republican" or "Conservative" with "Muslim" or "Jew" or whatever other group you might think of. Would you still type it?


thank you for that Sev. Good thought. I'll try to do better on this front
than I may have done in the past.


That is an interesting notion to contemplate.

Do you think they are the same ? You got me thinking. Here is what I came up with.

Muslim and Jew are organized religions. Actually, a lot of Jewish people, they would say Jewish is their Nationality.
Republican, Dem, Libertarian describe how you view governments role.
Conservative, Liberal, Progressive describe you mental disposition.

These things can be interconnected or not but they are different things.

Dem, Conservative, Jew
Rep, Moderate, Italian/Catholic

The vast majority of people are born into a religion while people pick there political and mental disposition when they are older.

Describing someone race may or may not have anything to do with their political leaning. Depends on the race really. I would say, how much race tell you about a political leaning probably is connected to how much that race is disadvantaged by the system. Example. Are Italians Democrat or Republicans ? Are they moderate, progressive or conservative. My guess, given my family as an example...they are a mix. But regardless of what they are, they made some kick ass yummy food. :)

My Conclusion. Talking about Conservative, Liberal, Progressive in the context of them being Republican, Dem, Libertarian is very different then talking about someones Nationality or Religion.
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Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V 

Post#1080 » by dobrojim » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:16 pm

I do recall one particular rant I posted...
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities

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