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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Post#1021 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Fri Feb 8, 2013 1:23 pm by popper

DCZards wrote:
popper wrote:
Obama attended a church for more than twenty years that preached a very one-sided and insular philosophy that to my knowledge, left no room for dissent or reasoned debate.


Popper, Obama attended a church not unlike the one I sometime attend here in the DC area. I can assure you that the philosophy is far from insular...and that debate is often lively and diverse.

I've heard Obama's former Chicago pastor, Jeremiah Wright, preach on a couple of occasions. Like me, he's a grad of Howard U and he returns to HU annually to deliver a sermon at the school's Rankin Chapel. If Rev. Wright is guilty of anything, it's being brutally honest about (past and present) race relations in this country.


I've also heard some of his sermons and agree with you that he's sincerely describing what he perceives to be issues surrounding race relations and history. Going back to Carson's speech earlier in this thread, I don't see how it does anyone any good to constantly talk about racism and denied opportunity. Prejudice and racism are sad, despicable and depressing facts of life. But we are better off doing as Carson's mother and Bill Crosby recommend. Pick ourselves up, brush ourselves off, and push on to new heights. That is not to say that people don't need help in doing so and I'm all for programs that assist in this way but it's counterproductive to reinforce a sense of hopelessness in people.
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Post#1022 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Fri Feb 8, 2013 1:53 pm by DCZards

popper wrote: Going back to Carson's speech earlier in this thread, I don't see how it does anyone any good to constantly talk about racism and denied opportunity. Prejudice and racism are sad, despicable and depressing facts of life. But we are better off doing as Carson's mother and Bill Crosby recommend. Pick ourselves up, brush ourselves off, and push on to new heights. That is not to say that people don't need help in doing so and I'm all for programs that assist in this way but it's counterproductive to reinforce a sense of hopelessness in people.


Popper, I'm all for being positive and striving for a better future. That's why the message of people like Carson and Cosby is so important. However, it's just as important to remember that racism, discrimination and inequality are still very much alive...and oftentimes an impediment to people picking themselves up. So we also need voices who remind us of that reality.
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Post#1023 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Fri Feb 8, 2013 2:00 pm by popper

DCZards wrote:
popper wrote: Going back to Carson's speech earlier in this thread, I don't see how it does anyone any good to constantly talk about racism and denied opportunity. Prejudice and racism are sad, despicable and depressing facts of life. But we are better off doing as Carson's mother and Bill Crosby recommend. Pick ourselves up, brush ourselves off, and push on to new heights. That is not to say that people don't need help in doing so and I'm all for programs that assist in this way but it's counterproductive to reinforce a sense of hopelessness in people.


Popper, I'm all for being positive and striving for a better future. That's why the message of people like Carson and Cosby is so important. However, it's just as important to remember that racism, discrimination and inequality are still very much alive...and oftentimes an impediment to people picking themselves up. So we also need voices who remind us of that reality.


Agreed
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Post#1024 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Fri Feb 8, 2013 2:28 pm by popper

fishercob wrote:
popper wrote:
montestewart wrote:Popper, maybe you're right about Reagan. While I recall him, in response to a question about AIDS, asserting that he doesn't know any homosexuals (never mind his wife's Dupont Circle hairdresser who visited the White House every two weeks), I also recall when Reagan died, Norman Lear (founder of liberal People for the American Way) commented that he and Reagan had been friends for years and that Reagan was always open to discussing his clearly differing views.

Perhaps Reagan's Hollywood background and some of his own children's loudly contrary views inured him to hearing a range of views. On the other hand, it may be that Reagan's background merely made him more comfortable (and publicly presentable) listening to alternative views with a deaf ear, as I don't recall any particular policy modifications that might have come from openness to contrary viewpoints. Oh, and Reagan on Woodward: "He is a liar," (from Reagan's diaries).


I guess the most profound policy modification he made was in his conversion from Hollywood liberal to conservative. One can see through his writings that he was open to alternative views and, as a result, adopted a completely different mindset as to what works and what doesn't. Not saying he was perfect or that I agree with everything he did but he was a man that embraced the power of reason and debate to inform his actions.

As to Bob Woodward's veracity, I've been admonished on this thread more than once (not by you) for quoting conservative thinkers and journalists. Therefore I thought if I quoted a liberal journalist held in high esteem based on his work during the Watergate era then my audience would be more amenable to my point of view. The fact that Reagan called him a liar might lend even more weight to his opinions as they regard Obama's insularity.


Popper, please expound on "Hollywood Liberal." What does that phrase mean? Who are these people? What do they believe in? What do they represent?

I contend that it is these types of constructs that go exactly counter to the level of discourse advocated in the very speech that you posted.


On the one hand it is unfair to stereotype people. On the other hand we must sometimes make generalizations to further a discussion. When making those generalizations one should state the caveat that not all within the group adhere to the stereotype. For instance, when discussing the Wizard's, we might reflect on their poor effort in a particular game. That does not mean that every single player put forth a poor effort but rather the team collectively did. With that said, I will attempt to answer your question (which I'm sure will cause much consternation on this thread).

In my view, a Hollywood Liberal is a naive Statist. Their Polyanna-ish outlook on life is nurtured through a cocooned lifestyle, seasoned within an echo chamber of like-minded elitist, and devoid of almost any interaction with regular folks. I believe they are more hypocritical than most and less moral than most (measured against the tenets of the three major religions). I don't think one in ten could reason their way out of a paper bag. Otherwise I think they are entertaining and fun to watch.
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Post#1025 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Fri Feb 8, 2013 6:27 pm by hands11

Zonkerbl wrote:Well, it is a scandal. They flat out lied and they shouldn't have. Shame on them.

But if Bush can get away with flat out lying about WMDs, is it fair to stick it to the Obama administration for something that is a lot, lot less bad? There's a big difference between lying about Benghazi because it's a month before the election and lying about WMD's to fool the nation and the world into a war against Iraq under false pretenses. One is a shameful scandal, the other is downright, terrifyingly Orwellian, and the only punishment the evil, evil perpetrators got is that they didn't get to be President for 8 years.

It's a scandal. But come on.

To me the much bigger scandal is when Breitbart lied about Shirley Sherrod (hey, it's their job to lie, fine) and the administration reflexively fired her with absolutely no justification whatsoever. That's what the Democratic party is all about, right there -- cowardice and incompetence. I think the USDA secretary should have been fired for that.


Orwellian is right.

Crazy world we live in. Not much is actually as it really appears.

Most American's are clueless to what actually goes on in the world. Most are also clueless as to what America's role has been. They believe we always act righteously to promote freedom and democracy around the world. Basically, people think of America as it was under FDR when we fought in WWII when we flexed our muscle to rightfully help stop a truly evil tyrant. And even then, what do most people know of what really happened in those times. How many are aware of the massive amount of death that happened to non Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

American lost 400,000 and only 1,700 civilians. Russia lost 23 Million and 13 to 14 Millions civilians.

Estimations are that the totals are 60 to 80 Million people died and as high as 54 Millions civilians.

Just try to wrap your brain around that for a moment. And that doesn't even tell the entire story I'm sure. What of the injured. The poisoned. The properly lose. The scorched Earth. The torn families.

But for most, apart from us forming this country and breaking away from England so we could be a free and independent self governing nation ( another just war with lots of death and destruction ), the righteousness of WWII is how they think of this country and how the Government approaches war.

But post WWII is when things changed so much for this country and how the government conducts its affairs. That's when we started to become that which we had contempt for. That was the turning point. We were never able to put the genie back in the bottle. The military industrial complex was born. We now had THE BOMB. Trumen started us down the strong path and we have never recovered. Covert operations under the CIA got out of control. We toppled democracies and put in our own strong men. We fought wars remotely by arming strong men.

We started to become the EMPIRE

Russia went from friend and enemy and communism became the new enemy.
We started to investigate our own citizens at an increasing level. We formed our own camps.
We propped up people like Saddam Hussein and Bin Ladin in the middle East.
We fought proxy wars in 3rd world counties.
We turned from a gov for the people to a gov against the people and for the banks, corporations and the MIC
We enter Vietnam and destroyed that region. And for what ? Was a just war?
JFK, his brother and MLK were killed. People that wanted to move us back toward our true path.
Nixon happened and we got a small taste of what was really happening at the highest levels of our gov.
And we saw that people like him. People of power would not be held accountable as he was pardoned.
Over time, our Imperial actions started to create a back lash. Iran was an alley once upon a time.
Then Reagan happened. Debt exploded and so did the MIC. More proxy wars and the neocon takeover.

Slowly one president at a time, we moved farther and farther way from what most believe America is really about as we become more and more an Empire like France and England of the past with a ruling class.

Then Bush Jr happened. A true government Coup. His brother and Katherine Harris and the Supreme Court.

That was a huge turning point in our history. The Orwellian nightmare got a huge shot in the arm at that point. Now we were finally permanently at war and not against an enemy, but a tactic. We manufactured a war in Iraq so we could start to take over that region via the neocon plan. We war was sold on lies, the people were made to be scared and off we went. Promised as a 160 Billion dollar war, it will end up costing us 3 Trillion. Bin Ladin couldn't have been more happy then those results because that was his goal. He wanted to egg us on and watch us overact to bankrupt us.

The Empire was in full swing. Preemptive war. Torture. Go it along. Propaganda. Surveillance out of control. Patriot Act. Massive military spending. Ending of the draft so the people are no longer directly connected to our military actions. Banks and Wall Street to big to fail. Union busting. Massive transfer of wealth to the rich who own our government. Political news propaganda stations. Government wholely owned by the rich and powerful. Bases all over the world. Citizens united. The Supreme Court turned into a political branch.

And now we are about to enter the drone wars.

And yet the people still think of America as it has been sold to them. Righteous. Far. Good. Not an Empire. One that only fights just wars it has to. Basically the America that existed under FDR and WWII.

This is the military machine Ron Pauls talks about.

One can only hope we collectively find a way to put the genie back in the bottle on body part at a time. So much has gone wrong since WWII.

If nothing else, we need to get our election process fixed. We are becoming a Banana republic. Then we need to go after some of these to big to fail structures. And we need to break up these media monopolies.
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Post#1026 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Fri Feb 8, 2013 7:01 pm by hands11

popper wrote:Attention All Progressives

If you do one thing today please watch the following speech. Two great men, side-by-side, with opposite visions for the country. One speaks from the heart while the other glares in contempt (my opinion). You decide.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2 ... ont-Of-Him


I think you are seeing what you want to see.

I saw Obama smile several times. He seemed to be intently listening.
His view is one of a Christian religious perspective, no excuses, and education. I have no problem with that.

I totally agree with his less informed population message, doctors in government, and the lawyer message. That was the strong part of the speech.

I keep saying this Pops. If you like this persons, you really need to be a Dem. You fit there better then you do with the Rs.

I don't agree with his tax idea. He is taking an idea from thousands of year ago and trying say it would work today. Not so sure that logic works but I would love to hear him debated over it. He is a good communicator. Not sure if he is an economist. But people love simple answer to complicated problems so I'm sure he will have his followers.

Enough said seemed to be his method of short handing answers. Its a nice tool since it lets people fill in whatever they want that works for them but enough said is not an answer.

The speak started well but it ended with a lot of nothing fluff. I would give it about a 5 or 6.
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Post#1027 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Fri Feb 8, 2013 7:17 pm by hands11

popper wrote:
montestewart wrote:It seems like you need Facebook to view the footage (or maybe my computer's lazy), but Popper, if you can step out of your partisan shoes for a moment, how does "Obama avoids people with views that don't comport with his own" differ markedly from the average, run-of-the-mill politician? Which Presidents would you characterize as enthusiastic seekers of contrary viewpoints?


I don't mean to be partisan. I do have a viewpoint though and obviously advocate for it as best I can here and in other forums (not to say I haven't been mistaken on occasion and changed my outlook when confronted with new information).

I think Ronald Reagan was a president that made an effort to seek out individuals and ideas that differed from his own. He was once a liberal that converted to conservatism after analyzing, researching and writing about the great issues of the day. He and Tip ONeil disagreed on most issues but Reagan evidently enjoyed the debate and looked forward to their time together. Reagan was also good friends with many Hollywood liberals and would socialize with them frequently. Don't know that Obama ever socializes with or looks forward to debating those with different viewpoints.

I hazard to guess that Obama is not in the minority with his penchant for ideological isolation. Most people I know do not like to be confronted or forced to defend their beliefs in an open debate. I guess it's just human nature. I'm glad this forum likes to mix it up.


Your view of Reagan is a glorified one. As for talking to people across the isles, as you mentioned, Tip was doing the same.

But if your standard for a good president is Reagan, then that is where we don't see things even close to the same. In my view Reagan was a terrible president. I said it at the time and still feel the same way. He is a part of the problem regarding where we are today. But it didn't all start with him. It started with Truman and was mostly down him from there. Reagan just accelerated the problems. Nixon did plenty of damage to the office and GWB Jr is a class of terrible all by himself. Mostly since WWII we have had crap Presidents except for JFK, Clinton and Obama.
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Post#1028 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Fri Feb 8, 2013 10:45 pm by popper

I'm no historian Hands but wasn't it Wilson that got us into the first World War. Roosevelt the second World War, as you mention. And wasn't it Kennedy that got us into Vietnam. And wasn't it Johnson that escalated the war.

And then of course Bush got us into the mess in Iraq and Afgan .... Not sure if history is as clearcut as you make it out to be but I can't argue that we made a wrong turn somewhere.
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Post#1029 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:58 pm by Zonkerbl

Check out this awesome visualization tool for Obama's budget proposal:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012 ... aphic.html
Comparing Rose to Wall is like asking which is a more impressive cat: A cheetah or a wolf? Dude, Wall ain’t no damn cat!
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Post#1030 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:31 pm by dobrojim

A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity
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Post#1031 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:59 pm by Zonkerbl

The desire to view the world in exclusively black and white shades is very American. Just because they're wrong on just about everything doesn't mean there won't be enormous demand for Fox News for years to come. So, not quite sure what the guardian is trying to say here.

Yes, the Republicans lost, yes they are showing no signs of adjusting their ideology in the wake of the loss.

Means nothing!

Karl Rove won the 2000 and 2004 election because he was able to target a large number of radical right wing thinkers with a very focused set of issues. He motivated this group to come out in unusually high numbers, which allowed the Republican party to win with a candidate who was very far to the right of the average populace.

So that's their strategy. Given how close they came to winning with exactly the same strategy with an even weaker candidate than W, why would they change?
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Post#1032 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:00 pm by dobrojim

IDK, maybe because batting .166 (1 outta 6 natl elections) won't cut it.
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Post#1033 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:58 pm by popper

I guess I am considered a radical right winger on this thread. Following are some of my core beliefs regarding the federal government’s role in our lives. Please tell me what is radical about these beliefs. I just see them as common sense.

1. The govt. should live within its means
2. A strong defense is necessary in a dangerous world full of aggressive dictatorships
3. Free markets work generally but need intelligent regulation
4. Man is motivated by self interest and responds to incentives
5. Parents should have a choice in the education they choose for their children
6. The Constitution is an inviolate contract between the people and their representatives. If the people want to change it, there is an amendment process to do so.
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Post#1034 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:56 pm by montestewart

popper wrote:I guess I am considered a radical right winger on this thread. Following are some of my core beliefs regarding the federal government’s role in our lives. Please tell me what is radical about these beliefs. I just see them as common sense.

1. The govt. should live within its means
2. A strong defense is necessary in a dangerous world full of aggressive dictatorships
3. Free markets work generally but need intelligent regulation
4. Man is motivated by self interest and responds to incentives
5. Parents should have a choice in the education they choose for their children
6. The Constitution is an inviolate contract between the people and their representatives. If the people want to change it, there is an amendment process to do so.

Popper, you wingnut. Man, what a crazy bunch of lunatic fringe ideas.

1. Pretty much agree, more so now with the debt so high.
2. Agree, but I don't like seeing so much money and loss of life (U.S. and otherwise) spent on policing the world. It often looks to me like most interventions are fueled more by special interests than national security.
3. Agree somewhat, depending on what "intelligent regulation" is. My fear of government power is rivaled by my fear of the actual concentrated power of large companies. A sap like me can only hope for a Red Harvest/Glass Key scenario where the powers fight each other and I somehow survive. Not likely.
4. Why I get my @$$ out of bed in the morning!
5. Somewhat agree, and having taught briefly in DC public schools, I've seen some bad bad bad, but if those that can afford to abandon the public option, I mostly see it getting worse.
6. I think of a contract as a conscious agreement between parties. The Constitution is the law. Same old story from me, much of the Constitution resulted from compromises between opposing faction, and there was great disagreement about what much of it meant almost immediately. One person's clarity is the next person's vagueness. The contract for purchasing my house was longer than the Constitution. How could it possibly cover all the things it was intended to cover? Interpretation is required.
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Post#1035 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:05 pm by Zonkerbl

I guess I am considered a bleeding heart liberal on this thread. Following are some of my core beliefs regarding the role of love in our lives. Please tell me what is radical about these beliefs. I just see them as common sense.

1. The government is the servant of the people. The primary role of the government is to facilitate the people's desire to love one another by showing compassion to the weak and disadvantaged.
2. Make love, not war.
3. There is more to life than just commercial satiation and greed. Seek out all that is truly beautiful in your life. Value love above all else.
4. Human beings are all good. We should all seek to love each other above all else. ALL OF US. No matter your nationality, color, preference of daytime soap operas, sexual orientation, whatever.
5. Parents should take an active role in educating their children and above all else, love them.
6. Trust is the foundation of modern civilization. Love thy neighbor.
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Post#1036 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:27 pm by montestewart

Zonkerbl wrote:I guess I am considered a bleeding heart liberal on this thread. Following are some of my core beliefs regarding the role of love in our lives. Please tell me what is radical about these beliefs. I just see them as common sense.

1. The government is the servant of the people. The primary role of the government is to facilitate the people's desire to love one another by showing compassion to the weak and disadvantaged.
2. Make love, not war.
3. There is more to life than just commercial satiation and greed. Seek out all that is truly beautiful in your life. Value love above all else.
4. Human beings are all good. We should all seek to love each other above all else. ALL OF US. No matter your nationality, color, preference of daytime soap operas, sexual orientation, whatever.
5. Parents should take an active role in educating their children and above all else, love them.
6. Trust is the foundation of modern civilization. Love thy neighbor.

Between you and Popper, I'm not sure who's more radical.
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Post#1037 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:49 pm by popper

montestewart wrote:
popper wrote:I guess I am considered a radical right winger on this thread. Following are some of my core beliefs regarding the federal government’s role in our lives. Please tell me what is radical about these beliefs. I just see them as common sense.

1. The govt. should live within its means
2. A strong defense is necessary in a dangerous world full of aggressive dictatorships
3. Free markets work generally but need intelligent regulation
4. Man is motivated by self interest and responds to incentives
5. Parents should have a choice in the education they choose for their children
6. The Constitution is an inviolate contract between the people and their representatives. If the people want to change it, there is an amendment process to do so.

Popper, you wingnut. Man, what a crazy bunch of lunatic fringe ideas.

1. Pretty much agree, more so now with the debt so high.
2. Agree, but I don't like seeing so much money and loss of life (U.S. and otherwise) spent on policing the world. It often looks to me like most interventions are fueled more by special interests than national security.
3. Agree somewhat, depending on what "intelligent regulation" is. My fear of government power is rivaled by my fear of the actual concentrated power of large companies. A sap like me can only hope for a Red Harvest/Glass Key scenario where the powers fight each other and I somehow survive. Not likely.
4. Why I get my @$$ out of bed in the morning!
5. Somewhat agree, and having taught briefly in DC public schools, I've seen some bad bad bad, but if those that can afford to abandon the public option, I mostly see it getting worse.
6. I think of a contract as a conscious agreement between parties. The Constitution is the law. Same old story from me, much of the Constitution resulted from compromises between opposing faction, and there was great disagreement about what much of it meant almost immediately. One person's clarity is the next person's vagueness. The contract for purchasing my house was longer than the Constitution. How could it possibly cover all the things it was intended to cover? Interpretation is required.


Thanks for the response Monte. Maybe I'm not out there all alone after all.
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Post#1038 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:54 pm by popper

Zonkerbl wrote:I guess I am considered a bleeding heart liberal on this thread. Following are some of my core beliefs regarding the role of love in our lives. Please tell me what is radical about these beliefs. I just see them as common sense.

1. The government is the servant of the people. The primary role of the government is to facilitate the people's desire to love one another by showing compassion to the weak and disadvantaged.
2. Make love, not war.
3. There is more to life than just commercial satiation and greed. Seek out all that is truly beautiful in your life. Value love above all else.
4. Human beings are all good. We should all seek to love each other above all else. ALL OF US. No matter your nationality, color, preference of daytime soap operas, sexual orientation, whatever.
5. Parents should take an active role in educating their children and above all else, love them.
6. Trust is the foundation of modern civilization. Love thy neighbor.


If human nature were such there'd be no need for a constitution or a prison Zonk. I wish it were so as well though.
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Post#1039 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:41 pm by hands11

Man I feel sorry to Rubio getting sent out there after Obama.

Dude has some serious cotton mouth.


LOL... He just grabbed a drink.. That was strange.
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Post#1040 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:07 pm by Zonkerbl

popper wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:I guess I am considered a bleeding heart liberal on this thread. Following are some of my core beliefs regarding the role of love in our lives. Please tell me what is radical about these beliefs. I just see them as common sense.

1. The government is the servant of the people. The primary role of the government is to facilitate the people's desire to love one another by showing compassion to the weak and disadvantaged.
2. Make love, not war.
3. There is more to life than just commercial satiation and greed. Seek out all that is truly beautiful in your life. Value love above all else.
4. Human beings are all good. We should all seek to love each other above all else. ALL OF US. No matter your nationality, color, preference of daytime soap operas, sexual orientation, whatever.
5. Parents should take an active role in educating their children and above all else, love them.
6. Trust is the foundation of modern civilization. Love thy neighbor.


If human nature were such there'd be no need for a constitution or a prison Zonk. I wish it were so as well though.


Reach for the stars, man. Specifically, Aquarius.

Comparing Rose to Wall is like asking which is a more impressive cat: A cheetah or a wolf? Dude, Wall ain’t no damn cat!
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