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Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cataclysm - Part V

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Post#796 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:06 pm by Induveca

I'm an American citizen, and most of my savings are in dollars. By no means do I want the country to fail. Certain policies, I see no other option but failure. 17 trillion in debt, 70% higher than 5 years ago, and massively expensive federal programs are being implemented now....while the government pays for it by raising the debt ceiling continuously. The *idea* of some policies is good, but to attempt implementation when the country is awash in historically high debt, both at the governmental and personal levels is beyond foolish. It's a blind utopian idea.....

"Underestimate us"? Patriotism. I get it. Wave the flag, do what you want....I'm not one for blind patriotism.

If I see something that threatens my family, I'm protecting them. I'm an American citizen who left the country to save 80% on taxes a year in my parent's home country, ensure my kids have a great education, while I can continue to make far much more money for them, and my future grandchildren.

I can afford my own healthcare, and have been paying in full for over 10 years now. Until the insanity in the US settles down, I'm choosing to lessen my contributions to programs which the country seems completely divided on........

However, 17.5 trillion dollars in debt doesn't go away overnight. That's a decade+ of spending controls, and massive budget cuts. Not budget increases. If the US keeps printing money, eventually it will lose reserve currency status......there is a reason gold is so high right now.
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Post#797 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:28 pm by Induveca

barelyawake wrote:4) You completely discount the American spirit. Many a dictator, clan, group, country and empire have fallen making that fatal mistake.


And this is why I don't take the argument seriously. I truly respect your patriotism and hope, but no matter how hard you wave a flag it won't save an economy. Cutting your bills, refusing to handcuff yourself with credit, buying things vs leasing them and living within your means will....it's a lesson everyone in the EU/US especially need to learn.

We're actually saying the same things, I'm just putting more pressure on the individual to put more money in their own pocket. The reliance on credit reached epic proportions these past 20 years, and now the government itself is addicted more than ever to debt. 17.5 trillion! 70% increase since 2008, unheard of in modern times.
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Post#798 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:38 pm by Zonkerbl

Well, another way to put it is that the U.S., being the hotbed of innovation and entrepreneurial spirit it is, will increase the productivity of its citizens to the extent that 17 trillion dollars of debt will only be 75% of GDP, meaning the GDP will grow to about $23 billion, an increase of about 50%.

Yeah. Not going to happen. I'm with Indu here -- America is a great country, but not THAT great. We have to spend less and tax more.
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Post#799 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:56 pm by popper

Zonkerbl wrote:Well, another way to put it is that the U.S., being the hotbed of innovation and entrepreneurial spirit it is, will increase the productivity of its citizens to the extent that 17 trillion dollars of debt will only be 75% of GDP, meaning the GDP will grow to about $23 billion, an increase of about 50%.

Yeah. Not going to happen. I'm with Indu here -- America is a great country, but not THAT great. We have to spend less and tax more.


Yep, it's a mathematic certainty. Taxes going up, spending either drastically reduced or hyperinflation cripples us.
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Post#800 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:29 am by barelyawake

Again, this thread is of little importance because of the election -- so revisiting old arguments is a waste of breathe.

A lot of our spending is on health care costs and the military.

Of course, "spending" needs to be reduced. But, it's a matter of what and when. Indy believes allowing the middle class to take the hit -- because they are lazy. That's a recipe for disaster. Google "austerity trap."
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Post#801 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:33 am by Induveca

barelyawake wrote:Again, this thread is of little importance because of the election -- so revisiting old arguments is a waste of breathe.

A lot of our spending is on health care costs and the military.

Of course, "spending" needs to be reduced. But, it's a matter of what and when. Indy believes allowing the middle class to take the hit -- because they are lazy. That's a recipe for disaster. Google "austerity trap."


When all the political BS is stripped away, the "fiscal idiocy" rests on this specific issue. It actually couldn't be more timely. An election outcome doesn't make financial problems go away.

Most in the US are ignoring the obvious mathematics, either due to ignorance (99% of voters) or convenience (politicians on any side).

By the end of 2013 the US will be paying nearly $US 300 billion a year interest on its $US17.5 trillion federal debt.
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Post#802 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Jan 2, 2013 11:08 am by Induveca

Gotta love how the new US "cuts" will save 600 billion over 10 years. The reality is that will grow substantially in a few months when it's realized raising taxes again will not be a possibility for a decade. Unfortunately the US is now locked in at 18% tax revenues of GDP while spending hovers at 23-24%.

If the rate of debt growth in the past 4 years continued, the US would be at 42 trillion in debt in 2023 (would never be allowed by world creditors beyond 25 B).

People need to demand real figures for budget cuts and savings. The US is poised for a tragic/avoidable economic collapse if excessive spending is not halted. Fortunately, there is no choice but for major budget cuts.

People will whine and complain, blame politicians as the elderly/poor/sick lose major portions of their benefits.

However we should all look in the mirror. Americans have far too long lived far beyond their means, 30 year mortgages / credit cards / car financing / 200 dollar cell phone plans / 150 dollar cable bills. The issuance and mass default on credit has caused the problem in its entirety.

Ironically, by supporting this excess debt/default trend the government now essentially owns an infrastructure on the brink of its own foreclosure due to excessive debt.

Time to stop playing the world policeman, implement major defense and healthcare cuts and focus on honest accounting. This could be turned around quickly.

People can downgrade to a Blackberry and basic HD cable for 10 years to pay for their own healthcare and have money left over for food.

Instead of attacking the rich, and gaining little revenue, the US would best be served by implementing forced savings accounts along with government backed personal finance classes for the masses.
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Post#803 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Jan 2, 2013 11:59 am by Zonkerbl

To be even more precise, if our productivity growth is 1.5% (a pretty generous assumption, btw), in ten years our GDP will expand to about $17.4 trillion (assume away population growth for simplicity). 75% of that is $13 trillion, so that's the target for total debt we should aim at. CBO apparently says current fiscal cliff agreement will actually increase our debt by $2 trillion, so we need to trim about $6 trillion off our current spending.

Or you could aim at about half that and hope some unexpected technological innovation solves the rest of the problem. You'd still need to trim $3 trillion off the debt. $500 billion in closing loopholes and other tax solutions means you have to reduce the military and healthcare by $2.5 trillion, or $250 billion/year for ten years.

I think that's doable. Maybe that's what we'll end up with after the next debt ceiling negotiations, $2.5 of spending cuts for ever $ of revenue increase. Democrats have agreed to something like this already.
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Post#804 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Wed Jan 2, 2013 11:50 pm by hands11

Congrats to the Rs out there.

Obama and Biden folded like a chairs.

Not sure why you'll are so afraid of having a Dem as president. Its actually the best way to have your policies implemented. If Rs are actually in control, they would go way overboard and massively fail like Bush did. That just hurts the country and gives your party a black eye.

This is a much better way to get what you want. You should always want this mix. Dem Pres, Dems Senate with a house Rs or Dem house and Rs in the Senate.

That is the best balance if you want your R ideas to actually get implemented in a way that won't blow up.

Separate topic. Will this disaster relief failure of Boner be the final blow that gets him kicked out?
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Post#805 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Jan 3, 2013 8:12 am by Zonkerbl

If I'm a Republican I'm extremely upset that I missed an opportunity and will definitely be looking to put the screws in during the debt ceiling debate.
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Post#806 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Jan 3, 2013 9:54 am by DCZards

hands11 wrote:Congrats to the Rs out there.

Obama and Biden folded like a chairs.


Why exactly do you say Obama and Biden folded?
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Post#807 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Jan 3, 2013 12:35 pm by hands11

DCZards wrote:
hands11 wrote:Congrats to the Rs out there.

Obama and Biden folded like a chairs.


Why exactly do you say Obama and Biden folded?


Didn't they just make like 90% of the Bush tax cut permanent ?

He ran and won running on 250K and they ended up at 450K.

I know it was a compromise but making the rates that high and permanent ?

Should be interesting to see how he holds strong or not on the debt limit stuff. We can't go through that again.

But another point was to highlight how the Rs shouldn't worry so much about Dems in the white house. They are far from the extreme lefties they are made out to be. Clinton wasn't and neither is Obama.
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Post#808 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Jan 3, 2013 2:33 pm by DCZards

hands11 wrote:
Didn't they just make like 90% of the Bush tax cut permanent ?

He ran and won running on 250K and they ended up at 450K.

I know it was a compromise but making the rates that high and permanent ?



Yup, it's called compromise...and it's not a bad word as some of the far right seem to think it is. It's how you get things done in a divided country.
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Post#809 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Thu Jan 3, 2013 9:21 pm by hands11

Obama the dictator. He wants a blank check to spend as much as he wants whenever he wants. And like clock work, you hear it echoed by people calling into CSPAN.

Raising the debt ceiling is not a blank check to spend. Its called paying the bills for spending the Congress has already appropriated.

The blank check for spending was the off budget spending we did for the two wars they started and didn't finish.

And just to focus in on the real target again. Rs are not about balancing the budget. They haven't tried to do that since before Reagan. What they want is to take a bite out of the big 3. Paul Ryans plan didn't even balance the budget. This is just more of the same. Still trying to stare the beast, dismantle the big three and transfer as much wealth as possible to the top 1%.

I tell you what, they are persistent. Even after they took a beating in the last election. I guess they haven't learned that Obama is just going to set them up to get clubbed like baby Seals.. again.

I expect this mid term election to be very different then the last one. The Obama machine will get out the vote this time.

At the same time, I expect things to get really ugly before it gets better. I sense the Rs are getting really desperate as they feel power slipping from that hands. This may be there last chance to get this stuff done.
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Post#810 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sat Jan 5, 2013 3:59 pm by popper

If true, this should terrify any American who desires freedom, liberty and the rule of law. The Democratic leaders of the House and Senate are happy to break laws and violate the Constitution for partisan purposes.

"Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) has reportedly told President Barack Obama that he would back the president overriding congressional authority and unilaterally raising the debt ceiling.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) was more forceful: “I’ve made my view very clear on that subject: I would do it in a second. But I’m not the president of the United States.”


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government ... t-Congress


Democrats to Obama: Keep Constitution on the table in debt ceiling fight

By RACHAEL BADE and PATRICK REIS | 1/4/13 7:34 PM EST

The White House insists President Barack Obama can’t — and won’t — use the 14th Amendment to raise the debt ceiling.

But a growing number of his congressional allies are urging Obama not to abandon a potentially powerful weapon before negotiations even begin.

With Republicans promising another climactic fight over the $16.4 trillion debt limit in two months, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said Friday that if she were president, she would invoke the Constitution to raise the ceiling on her own — with or without permission from the GOP.

“I would do it, in a second, but I’m not the president of the United States,” Pelosi said.

Like many other Democrats, Pelosi is eyeing the language in the 14th Amendment stating that the validity of U.S. public debts “shall not be questioned.” Prominent Democrats, including former President Bill Clinton, have argued that language — added in the aftermath of the Civil War — gives Obama all the authority he needs to break the ceiling.

Realistic or not, the talk underscores growing liberal concern that yet another round of brinksmanship will hobble Washington and the economy — and force Obama into a bad negotiating position — just months after Congress went over the so-called fiscal cliff and then barely averted it with a last-minute tax deal.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/d ... z2H8ZKMLSn
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Post#811 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sat Jan 5, 2013 5:19 pm by DCZards

I'm guessing that most Americans would support the President using the Constitution to raise the debt ceiling if the far right wingers in the House are as asinine and uncompromising as they were the last time.
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Post#812 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sat Jan 5, 2013 6:02 pm by popper

DCZards wrote:I'm guessing that most Americans would support the President using the Constitution to raise the debt ceiling if the far right wingers in the House are as asinine and uncompromising as they were the last time.


Even if it's unconstitutional? This concerns me DCZ because if most Americans believe that we can breach the Constitution when expedient then we are no longer a country of law, but one of men. This will surely lead to our demise.

Edit - We are borrowing $1 Trillion plus a year. Would a fair compromise be that we cut half of that?
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Post#813 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sat Jan 5, 2013 6:40 pm by noworriesinmd

I've avoided this topic.
No party has a mandate.
There will of the American people is 52% for and 48% against. (approximation)
Rural America's agenda is different than Urban America (Hmmm. why they created the House vs Senate).
I've heard various things, like using the 14th Amendment or the President has the power to "coin" money so why not create 1T platinum coins.
Rs and Ds agendas are diametrically opposed. Where can there be compromise?

I'm totally against secession. However I am a small federal gov't guy. Individuals in Washington cannot create laws to better the whole country because the people in New York's priorities are different than the priorities of the people in South Dakota. When the Federal Gov't starts taking on too many roles you get what you have now. Politics is LOCAL, that is why the House will be Red for awhile.

The Federal Gov't role should be limited, protect commerce and protect the people.
Health Care should not be controlled by a gov't mandate - Medicare and Medicaid are loved by all, but policies are determined not by "us", but by special interest We point to Developed countries, but there are only two countries larger population-wise than the US.....India and China. The largest "developed" country in the world that we point to is Japan..we are 3 times larger. The next is Germany...we are 5 times larger.

The tax debate centered on "millionaires" and "billionaires", but in reality they were talking about taxing anyone making more than 200K (the debate was set at a false 250K for couples)....it was 200k. "millionaires" and "billionaires" make up 0.08% of the 200k+ people and 0.005% of the US population. We live on the fringes. A millionaire for tax reasons is anyone with a net-worth of 6.8M or who makes 598k a year.

I have no desire to get into this debate. Social Programs (by far) and Military spending are the elephants in the room that no one wants to tackle.

Ask a R what do you want to cut and they can't give you a program. They just say the Gov't spends to much.
Ask a D what do you want to do to bring in more programs, and they say tax the rich.

Problem with both approaches....they will not work....EVER.

The whole system is messed up, but if you know your history...Regan subverted Congress's (power of the purse) by doing the Iran-Contra deal. FDR wanted to replace the whole Supreme Court to push through the New Deal. Roberts probably voted for the healthcare act because the Supreme Court was at risk voting otherwise.

If Obama raises the debt ceiling, what will happen....nothing. People will bitc** and moan, but it will be done. A second term is bad for a President because you get used to unlimited power. That we where all Presidents go wrong.

Just remember, a politician's job is to get re-elected. Their job is to say "yes" to as many people as possible while saying "no" to as few people as possible. The reality is that you are getting the most polarized politicians through our primary system. How most districts are drawn if a R votes for the debt ceiling...they will be out of a job. If a D votes to remove a social program then they will be out of a job.

Ask yourself, should power be concentrated in washington or your home state. once you answer that question, then we'll start to heal as a nation.
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Post#814 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sat Jan 5, 2013 6:52 pm by hands11

popper wrote:
DCZards wrote:I'm guessing that most Americans would support the President using the Constitution to raise the debt ceiling if the far right wingers in the House are as asinine and uncompromising as they were the last time.


Even if it's unconstitutional? This concerns me DCZ because if most Americans believe that we can breach the Constitution when expedient then we are no longer a country of law, but one of men. This will surely lead to our demise.

Edit - We are borrowing $1 Trillion plus a year. Would a fair compromise be that we cut half of that?


It won't be done if it is unconstitutional. I think a person that was a constitutional lawyer would know what is constitutional. And if it wasn't he would get challenged. Kind of like Obama care was challenged.

No if congress would have actually have lifted a finger to help the economy over the last two years, we would have less of a deficit. You can't be the ones causing the problem and then crying foul.

You do realize the deficit is going back down and so is the debt to GDP. Its just happening slower then it could have.
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Post#815 Re: Political Roundtable Cosmic String of Cat
Sat Jan 5, 2013 7:08 pm by popper

noworriesinmd wrote:I've avoided this topic.
No party has a mandate.
There will of the American people is 52% for and 48% against. (approximation)
Rural America's agenda is different than Urban America (Hmmm. why they created the House vs Senate).
I've heard various things, like using the 14th Amendment or the President has the power to "coin" money so why not create 1T platinum coins.
Rs and Ds agendas are diametrically opposed. Where can there be compromise?

I'm totally against secession. However I am a small federal gov't guy. Individuals in Washington cannot create laws to better the whole country because the people in New York's priorities are different than the priorities of the people in South Dakota. When the Federal Gov't starts taking on too many roles you get what you have now. Politics is LOCAL, that is why the House will be Red for awhile.

The Federal Gov't role should be limited, protect commerce and protect the people.
Health Care should not be controlled by a gov't mandate - Medicare and Medicaid are loved by all, but policies are determined not by "us", but by special interest We point to Developed countries, but there are only two countries larger population-wise than the US.....India and China. The largest "developed" country in the world that we point to is Japan..we are 3 times larger. The next is Germany...we are 5 times larger.

The tax debate centered on "millionaires" and "billionaires", but in reality they were talking about taxing anyone making more than 200K (the debate was set at a false 250K for couples)....it was 200k. "millionaires" and "billionaires" make up 0.08% of the 200k+ people and 0.005% of the US population. We live on the fringes. A millionaire for tax reasons is anyone with a net-worth of 6.8M or who makes 598k a year.

I have no desire to get into this debate. Social Programs (by far) and Military spending are the elephants in the room that no one wants to tackle.

Ask a R what do you want to cut and they can't give you a program. They just say the Gov't spends to much.
Ask a D what do you want to do to bring in more programs, and they say tax the rich.

Problem with both approaches....they will not work....EVER.

The whole system is messed up, but if you know your history...Regan subverted Congress's (power of the purse) by doing the Iran-Contra deal. FDR wanted to replace the whole Supreme Court to push through the New Deal. Roberts probably voted for the healthcare act because the Supreme Court was at risk voting otherwise.

If Obama raises the debt ceiling, what will happen....nothing. People will bitc** and moan, but it will be done. A second term is bad for a President because you get used to unlimited power. That we where all Presidents go wrong.

Just remember, a politician's job is to get re-elected. Their job is to say "yes" to as many people as possible while saying "no" to as few people as possible. The reality is that you are getting the most polarized politicians through our primary system. How most districts are drawn if a R votes for the debt ceiling...they will be out of a job. If a D votes to remove a social program then they will be out of a job.

Ask yourself, should power be concentrated in washington or your home state. once you answer that question, then we'll start to heal as a nation.


Well said. I'm in the "power concentrated in my home state" camp.
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