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Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth

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Post#151 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:25 am by hands11

DANNYLANDOVER wrote:
Jay81 wrote:is Harrison barnes better than Bradley Beal?

Yes. I really think the board fell into group think with Beal. Barnes was more productive than Beal in college, but as usual we overrate potential, because Beal is 19 and has a nice looking jumper. I think Beal will be a good player, but I would have picked Drummond or Barnes over him.


If Beal does end up being a bust, then God help us.

But yeah, it would be nice to draft players that are productive and not just potential.

The thing with potential type players is why draft them when you can usually pick them up latter. They rarely stay on the team that drafted them.

And draft players that have high motors that play the game fearlessly. For all the board hate, Crawford does fit that description. Wall also fits that description. But what you really want are players that have those two think plus a defined skill that you need such as shooting or rebounding. When you use that criteria, that when players like Farried, Crowder, and Lillard start to stand out.
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Post#152 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:16 am by tontoz

i knew they would struggle without Wall and Nene but this is getting ridiculous.
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Post#153 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:44 am by hands11

payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:Randy is making this much harder then it needs to be. Why he insists on playing Price 31 minutes is baffling.
And with Martin sinking the place up tonight, why didn't he try Webster at SG. Martin was shooting the ball short all night. After he was 0-5 from 3 land, sit his ass down. Its not his night.

Randy coached like an idiot. These guy have been in most the games. At what point is it not simply the players but the combination he has our there and how he is running the offense.

At no point, Hands. We don't have enough players, nor productive enough players, to win NBA games. The idea that we lost last night because we didn't play Webster is kind of silly. We also lost when we did play Webster.

Price was one of our best performers last night -- I'm no fan of his, but you picked an odd night to be questioning his minutes. OTOH, Crawford, tho he had 8 assists and didn't turn it over much and went 5-5 from the line, didn't really contribute overall. He went 7-18 and in 31 minutes he had only 1 rebound.

Games are won by TS% and ball control. The less you get to the line, the lower your TS%, and we don't get to the line. As to ball control, we are getting out-rebounded pretty regularly.

Last night, Okafor and Ariza did what was expected of them by Ernie. If Nene had been playing, I imagine we'd have won the game. It would have been an example of achieving the kind of barely mediocre level Ernie was aiming for.

However painful, it'd be better to lose until Ernie is finally fired than to have his crappy idea prove out. In any case, that's what's happening and will continue to happen.


While adding Wall and Nene would dramatically change this picture, we don't have them right now and line ups do matter. Will they matter enough to win any one of these games. I can't prove that since it didn't happen but I can see what works and doesn't and I can see the other options available. They have been in most of these games and they had the players available to win at least 40% of them. Their defense is good. That is the one bright spot. That is also the least surprising since the team was mostly build to be good defensively to surround the scoring of Wall and Nene. What they need is offense until they return, getting to the line and someone with the personality and skills to lead them when the offense grinds to a halt. And they need a SG that can hit an open shot and who can drive and get fouled.

I and other could see they needed to add Livingston because Price and Pargo were not enough to lead the team at PG. I could see they needed to play Crawford there more which they have finally started to do and when they do, the team is more productive. Why, because he has all those qualities. He can drive, create, score, get to the line ( more so if the refs would actually call half of fouls that happen to him ) and the personality to lead them. They should have made him the starting PG from game 1 with Wall out. Price should have been backing him up and now that they have Livingston, Price shouldn't even be an option at PG anymore.

I have no problem at all stepping out and saying what I did about Price even though his numbers looked 'ok".
His numbers don't tell the whole story. 2 of his shots and 5 of his 8 pts were scored while playing off the ball with Crawford running the PG. He was playing the SG on offense and defending PG on defense. So is that the player I want at SG ? Personally, I don't have a problem with him playing there some but do it with clarity. He is just one of a group that includes Beal, Martin and Webster. And as I said before, I want that player to be able to hit an open shot, drive and get to the line. He fits one of those. He can hit an open shot. And like I said, 5 of his pts came that way. They should have road that while he was feeling it. But Utah called a time out and I'm not even sure he was in the line up when they came back. If he was, I don't remember seeing them go back to that.

But in order of who I want at SG, I would say Beal and Webster fit the bill the most. Beal is a rookie so I have no problem bringing him off the bench. I also have no problem starting him. But if you aren't starting him, then Webster should be the SG. Price should be back there with Martin. He is a SG who has some handles, not a PG. And while his assists are up this year, he doesn't lead a team. He just doesn't have that nor the personality that the team follows. At best he is Crawford two years ago with less offense. Well we have Crawford two years later who seems to have learned better shot selection. There is no need to play Price at PG. Specially now that they have Livingston. So just looking at what Randy did at SG, how does Webster get zero minutes on a night that Martin is 0-7 from 3 land except of one junk time made 3 with 30 second left in the game.

Beal was off again. Martin was clanking. That leaves two options at SG. Price or Webster and Webster got zero minutes there. That in my view was stupid. The one part of Websters game that is most reliable is his ability to hit and open shot with his feet set. And he has the body and will to drive. And he is 6-7, not 6-1.

Trevor A had a very productive game and played 34 minutes. He could have played more. There was no reason to bring in C Singleton for the 4th quarter after not playing him all game. He came and and got two quick fouls and clobbered on the boards.

Ves also was very active and played well but he was sitting on the bench to close the game. That made no sense. Ves played only 22 minutes. He had 5 rebounds and tipped out a number of other rebounds and had two blocked shots. He was actually scrapping pretty good under the basket. The kid is long and he was playing with good energy. He was +11 which was best on the team.

Oakfor had 14 rebounds. Clearly he needed to be in the game. Specially since Kevin played like ass again. Zero rebounds for Kevin. Kid of starting to make me think he is a soft ass punk. Come on Kevin. You are 275 and young. Play like it.

So yeah, having Wall and Nene would have a big different but so does lining up what you have better in the mean time. The closing line ups made no sense. Randy coached like ass. Price is their third best PG and should be used behind Beal and Webster at the same level as Martin as a SG. Not a starter. Thats line ups and last I checked, who is on the floor and how they are used is a big part of basketball. Specially in close games.

This lose and a few other I can count are Randy failures and that disappoints me since I was a big Randy fan and called for his getting this extension. So far Randy seems to be a good practice development coach, but not a great game time coach. I guess that makes some sense since he has mostly been an assistant. I hope he develops his game time coaching skills better.
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Post#154 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:07 pm by 80sballboy

Randy has no options. The entire team is garbage. Stay with Vesely? He can't rebound defensively save to tipping the ball. Webster I don't get but everybody loves Cartie and then he can't make a shot. Everybody said make lineup changes so he did. Beal off the bench was the right move. He's not ready to start but he should have played more than 13 minutes. Starting Ves over the terrible Booker was the right move on because of his length. I don't know what has happened to Singleton at the 4. I thought he would be ok, but he's just a tweener. Seraphin is playing like a rookie and his lack of rebounding shows lack of heart on that side of the floor.

He's no Red Auerbach but Red couldn't have done anything with this joke of a team. I knew we would be terrible but never thought we'd miss Nene and John this bad. And there's no way they are good enough to make up a team that will be 2-17 when they return (hopefully).
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Post#155 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:08 pm by jivelikenice

DANNYLANDOVER wrote:
Jay81 wrote:is Harrison barnes better than Bradley Beal?

Yes. I really think the board fell into group think with Beal. Barnes was more productive than Beal in college, but as usual we overrate potential, because Beal is 19 and has a nice looking jumper. I think Beal will be a good player, but I would have picked Drummond or Barnes over him.


100%. The concerns about Beak were the following:
1. Height
2. Ability to attack off the dribble
3. His actual shooting % in college
4. Aggressiveness

All of these concerns have been validated. His height is affecting his ability to get off shots. He's no effective driving to the hoop. He has a nice looking shot but it doesn't translate to a high fg% because he just plain misses or doesn't get an easy shots. He's tentative....None of this should be a surprise. We convinced ourselves he was better than he was and blamed his deficiencies on him being a freshman. If he had gone back to college like Perry Jones did, the questions would have arose...He benefited from being young and the sample size not being big enough.....
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Post#156 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:11 pm by hands11

80sballboy wrote:Randy has no options. The entire team is garbage. Stay with Vesely? He can't rebound defensively save to tipping the ball. Webster I don't get but everybody loves Cartie and then he can't make a shot. Everybody said make lineup changes so he did. Beal off the bench was the right move. He's not ready to start but he should have played more than 13 minutes. Starting Ves over the terrible Booker was the right move on because of his length. I don't know what has happened to Singleton at the 4. I thought he would be ok, but he's just a tweener. Seraphin is playing like a rookie and his lack of rebounding shows lack of heart on that side of the floor.

He's no Red Auerbach but Red couldn't have done anything with this joke of a team. I knew we would be terrible but never thought we'd miss Nene and John this bad. And there's no way they are good enough to make up a team that will be 2-17 when they return (hopefully).


What is more important then getting a rebound is making sure your team gets it and not the other team.

Ves might not do that every night but he was last night. That is why you can't just look at stats. You have to see what is happening on the floor. Ves should have stayed in. He was effective last night. He was also +11 which lead the team. Going to Singleton that late in the game was just stupid.

I still believe in Ves. He has NBA height, athleticism, scrap and IQ. He needs minutes. He is going to get better. His FT shooting is going to improve. Right now it is mostly mental. And he is going to start to hit that mid range. He needs playing time. There is talent there. And they did invest a 6th pick on him. They need to play him like they need to play Beal. Ves is only in his 8th game of his second year. Way to early to call bust. Ves should start. Beal should continue to come off the bench.

Booker is to short and Kevin is so far proving to be to soft. I would start Ves and when Nene returns, they should be the two PFs. Booker should float form SF to Center depending on match ups and line ups.

This should be there line ups and rotation.

Crawford/Livingston/Price
Webster/Beal/Martin/Price
Trevor A/Singleton/Webster
Vesely/Booker/Singleton
Okafor/Kevin/Barron

If they do that, they will start to win some games.
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Post#157 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:32 pm by DMVleGeND

hands11 wrote:
DANNYLANDOVER wrote:
Jay81 wrote:is Harrison barnes better than Bradley Beal?

Yes. I really think the board fell into group think with Beal. Barnes was more productive than Beal in college, but as usual we overrate potential, because Beal is 19 and has a nice looking jumper. I think Beal will be a good player, but I would have picked Drummond or Barnes over him.


If Beal does end up being a bust, then God help us.

But yeah, it would be nice to draft players that are productive and not just potential.


The thing with potential type players is why draft them when you can usually pick them up latter. They rarely stay on the team that drafted them.

And draft players that have high motors that play the game fearlessly. For all the board hate, Crawford does fit that description. Wall also fits that description. But what you really want are players that have those two think plus a defined skill that you need such as shooting or rebounding. When you use that criteria, that when players like Farried, Crowder, and Lillard start to stand out.


The thing about Beal is that even though he's only 19, I don't think his potential is as high as most on this board do due to his lack of freakish size and athletic ability.

My two favorites for our pick, Barnes and Drummond, are playing very well. Barnes is playing up to expectations, and Drummond, a guy that many said would bust, is one of the most productive rookies right now and Pistons fans are screaming for him to start. With Drummond, even though he was raw in terms of offense and feel for the game, people failed to see that he'd have an immediate impact defensively, and is a huge target on offense.
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Post#158 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:41 pm by LyricalRico

hands11 wrote:I still believe in Ves. He has NBA height, athleticism, scrap and IQ. He needs minutes. He is going to get better. His FT shooting is going to improve. Right now it is mostly mental. And he is going to start to hit that mid range. He needs playing time. There is talent there.


Well, I think he needs more than just minutes. I think he needs minutes alongside other guys that he can play off of. His numbers in the second half of last season were never great, but when he was with Wall/Nene, he was showing that he could be a valuable member of an NBA team. He's probably hurting the most from those guys being out right now.
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Post#159 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:42 pm by truwizfan4evr

I don't agree with people calling Beal a bust we just 8 games in a lot of rookies have slow start that's to be expected main reason we drafted Beal in to play with wall and wall not here. I will hold off my judgement to we get a healthy Wall and them 2 play together for at least 2 years. Beal game will come on at some point he still learning. Wall going to make the game a lot easier for him. He has shown flashes of what he can do that's a good thing.
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Post#160 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:04 pm by hands11

truwizfan4evr wrote:I don't agree with people calling Beal a bust we just 8 games in a lot of rookies have slow start that's to be expected main reason we drafted Beal in to play with wall and wall not here. I will hold off my judgement to we get a healthy Wall and them 2 play together for at least 2 years. Beal game will come on at some point he still learning. Wall going to make the game a lot easier for him. He has shown flashes of what he can do that's a good thing.


Same is true of Ves. He was added to run with Wall.

Not even Ernie thought he was a finish product or a half court go to player. He was a long term investment.

Its a team in rebuild with out it best young player who happens to play PG and run the team and its best vet post player.

Not much of what we have see so far is going to matter once Wall and Nene return other then they wasted a lot of time playing Price at PG in the preseason and to start the yea.r . He isn't going to get any minutes at PG once Wall returns and even now with Livingston he shouldn't be getting any because all those minutes should go to Crawford and Livingston at PG until Wall returns.
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Post#161 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:05 pm by willbcocks

jivelikenice wrote:
DANNYLANDOVER wrote:
Jay81 wrote:is Harrison barnes better than Bradley Beal?

Yes. I really think the board fell into group think with Beal. Barnes was more productive than Beal in college, but as usual we overrate potential, because Beal is 19 and has a nice looking jumper. I think Beal will be a good player, but I would have picked Drummond or Barnes over him.


100%. The concerns about Beak were the following:
1. Height
2. Ability to attack off the dribble
3. His actual shooting % in college
4. Aggressiveness

All of these concerns have been validated. His height is affecting his ability to get off shots. He's no effective driving to the hoop. He has a nice looking shot but it doesn't translate to a high fg% because he just plain misses or doesn't get an easy shots. He's tentative....None of this should be a surprise. We convinced ourselves he was better than he was and blamed his deficiencies on him being a freshman. If he had gone back to college like Perry Jones did, the questions would have arose...He benefited from being young and the sample size not being big enough.....


I think #3 and #4 are valid, but I haven't seen anything to worry about his height. He's blocked some shots and he can get his shot off fine. Can he get off a 3 with a big man up in his grill? No, but we don't want him to.

He's also shown a decent ability to drive the ball. In the last game, he made some very nice moves to the basket, and since the first game he's gotten much better at not picking up his dribble. This is all clearly an improvement since college, so it bodes well for further improvement in the future. His larger problem has been finishing at the rim--he's struggling so far. And yes, this is partially because of his height. But this is part of the process of a guard transitioning from college to the NBA, and it's far too early to write off his ability to get the cup.

As for his outside shot, it's looked pretty but been average. This is a real concern. It needs to look pretty and go in a lot for him to be an impact player.
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Post#162 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:23 am by DANNYLANDOVER

jivelikenice wrote:
DANNYLANDOVER wrote:
Jay81 wrote:is Harrison barnes better than Bradley Beal?

Yes. I really think the board fell into group think with Beal. Barnes was more productive than Beal in college, but as usual we overrate potential, because Beal is 19 and has a nice looking jumper. I think Beal will be a good player, but I would have picked Drummond or Barnes over him.


100%. The concerns about Beak were the following:
1. Height
2. Ability to attack off the dribble
3. His actual shooting % in college
4. Aggressiveness

All of these concerns have been validated. His height is affecting his ability to get off shots. He's no effective driving to the hoop. He has a nice looking shot but it doesn't translate to a high fg% because he just plain misses or doesn't get an easy shots. He's tentative....None of this should be a surprise. We convinced ourselves he was better than he was and blamed his deficiencies on him being a freshman. If he had gone back to college like Perry Jones did, the questions would have arose...He benefited from being young and the sample size not being big enough.....

Thank you. DMVLegend and I were pretty much the only ones that wanted Drummond pre-draft. The thing is that Beal didn't make that much of an impact in college, save for the tournament games. If you are drafting based on potential, at least, make sure that the player has the physical attributes to match his potential. Beal is not very athletic for someone undersized, rarely finishes at the rim with contact, doesn't have good enough handles or a great first step. Barnes has all of those, and Drummond might be raw, but his physical traits and defensive instincts means his floor is a decent starter.
Anyway, we have Beal now, I just hope he gets it together soon enough. As it is looking right now, he'll end up being only a spot-up shooter at best, and you can find those in the 2nd round of any draft.
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Post#163 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:33 am by DANNYLANDOVER

truwizfan4evr wrote:I don't agree with people calling Beal a bust we just 8 games in a lot of rookies have slow start that's to be expected main reason we drafted Beal in to play with wall and wall not here. I will hold off my judgement to we get a healthy Wall and them 2 play together for at least 2 years. Beal game will come on at some point he still learning. Wall going to make the game a lot easier for him. He has shown flashes of what he can do that's a good thing.

Personally, I don't think he's a bust...yet. My issue is with people who said Drummond was gonna be a bust, but Beal would be an all star. They were both average in college, and were only rated highly based on potential. The only distinguishing stat Beal had in college was rebounding from a SF position.
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Post#164 Re: Wizards vs Utah Sat 7PM @ the Booth
Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:00 am by closg00

DANNYLANDOVER wrote:
truwizfan4evr wrote:I don't agree with people calling Beal a bust we just 8 games in a lot of rookies have slow start that's to be expected main reason we drafted Beal in to play with wall and wall not here. I will hold off my judgement to we get a healthy Wall and them 2 play together for at least 2 years. Beal game will come on at some point he still learning. Wall going to make the game a lot easier for him. He has shown flashes of what he can do that's a good thing.

Personally, I don't think he's a bust...yet. My issue is with people who said Drummond was gonna be a bust, but Beal would be an all star. They were both average in college, and were only rated highly based on potential. The only distinguishing stat Beal had in college was rebounding from a SF position.
My draft motto would be, don't draft a SG with a top 5 pick, unless they are very physically gifted. No undersized SG at the top of the draft, they rarely win you championships.


Amen, but there is still plenty of room for Beal to be a very good SG for us.
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