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Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust

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Is Jan Vesely a Bust?

Yes, I've seen enough, Jan Vesely is a Bust for a 6th pick
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No, let's wait to see how he plays with JW and Nene
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Total votes: 162

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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#201 » by davidgrant » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:53 am

He needs to be sent to the D League. His only hope is to send him down to get lots of minutes and get his confidence back up.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#202 » by BigA » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:05 pm

Knighthonor wrote:Jan lacks confidence right now, which I believe is due to his own personal NBA comfort building block (Wall, the lotto pick before him) is out the for the season, and he forced to play without his building block of comfort.

notice how he playing worst than summer league.

something emotional is the underlining issue with Jan.

You all not helping him, by being so negative.


Hopefully the return of his building block of comfort will make a difference for Jan.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#203 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:26 pm

Hopefully, Wall will prop up Vesely's game long enough to make some foolish team want him in a trade. If we can get back a late first or early 2nd rounder, I'd be all over it.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#204 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:50 pm

Overall, Jan is playing terribly and perhaps is a huge bust, one not long for heading back to Europe. That said, I'm 100% sure Vesely can be a useful NBA player under the right circumstances.

Here is a box score from five days ago. http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 70WAS.html

Five days ago, Vesely had 10 points, 7 rebounds, 1 steal, and 1 block, with (only) 2 fouls and 2 turnovers in a win over OKC. Jan did that in 20 minutes.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11WAS14.HTM

Last season, the Wizards were +1.9 points better per-100 possession in the over 1000 minutes Jan played. They defended better and grabbed more offensive rebounds with Jan on the court than with his replacements. (Lewis, Singleton, Seraphin, Booker)

nate and others, how quickly you forget Jan's good play:

Vesely started 15 games in a row starting April 2012. (see the very bottom, detailed info of this link).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... :pgl_basic

They lost the first 5 games, but then won 8 of the last 10. Would you say that is young guys improving?

They were 8-7 with both Jan Vesely and Kevin Seraphin starting.


That link above highlights Vesely's 15 starts. Vesely as a starter last season ...

Jan averaged 8.1 points, 7.0 rebounds, and only 3.1 fouls over 28 minutes each game. He also had roughly as many steals, assists, and blocks as his only 1.3 turnovers. (Jan was a very high basketball-IQ player)

Vesely was not a guy who fouled more than he scored last season. He certainly played well beating OKC the other night. Don't get carried away thinking the guy is worse than he really is.

What happened to both Vesely and Seraphin is a lack of consistent starts and a lack of confidence. Neither guy is playing well now because of their changed roles, new roster, frustration, and their own insecurities due to some very puzzling moves by GM and ownership--plus Wall being hurt.

What Ted and Ernie did was stunt them in the short run by bringing in different players. Teams around the league wait for the Wizards to give up young players.

There will definitely be another team that will take Vesely off the Wizards hands.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#205 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:00 pm

nate33 wrote:Hopefully, Wall will prop up Vesely's game long enough to make some foolish team want him in a trade. If we can get back a late first or early 2nd rounder, I'd be all over it.


See my post above with all the strange colors, huge fonts, etc.

There's nothing wrong with Vesely that a different role, mindset, and team won't fix. It frustrates me that winning 8 out of 10 games meant nothing last season and young guys who CAN PLAY are being underrated this season.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#206 » by deneem4 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:11 pm

Jan needs to play sf when on the court...if nt sf...center...most power forwards are more aggressive with post up and drives....with sf he can use his length to contest shots...with centers he dont usually have to worry about getting post up jus put backs and rebounds...he showed he can disrupt passing lanes vs thunder
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#207 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:42 pm

Exactly, deneem4.

Play Vesely at SF because you've got scoring guards, and a scorer in the post. Otherwise, play Ves at C and take advantage of his mobility to beat guys down court.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#208 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:42 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Exactly, deneem4.

Play Vesely at SF because you've got scoring guards, and a scorer in the post. Otherwise, play Ves at C and take advantage of his mobility to beat guys down court.

Basically, the problem is that Vesely isn't good enough offensively to play the 4 and must therefore play the 5. And he isn't good enough defensively to play the 4 so therefore must play the 3. Do you see the problem here?

At best, he's half a player, and that's only when he plays out of position. He could be competent defensively at the 3, but would be possibly the worst SF in history offensively. Likewise, he could be competent offensively at the 5 (because most teams don't need offense at the 5) but would be the worst post defender at the 5 in history. When he plays the 4, he's really bad both offensively and defensively, but not necessarily the worst in history, so I guess that's a plus.

Look, a guy that shoots 24% from the FT line has no place in the NBA. Maybe if he was an all-world defender at C, you could find space for him, but that's about it. Yes, there are lineups and systems where we could make Vesely look reasonably competent, but that's only by catering to his limitations. Any other half-decent player in the same role would do much better and give us a better chance at winning.

The only reason Vesely looked half-decent down the stretch last year was because teams hadn't scouted him. Now they have, and we can see how bad Vesely sucks. As Dat2U has pointed out over and over, Vesely's ceiling is Jared Jeffries without the dribbling ability. There's no reason to go out of our way to develop him. He's never going to be anything more than a mediocre role player, and that's in a best-case scenario.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#209 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:09 pm

nate33 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Exactly, deneem4.

Play Vesely at SF because you've got scoring guards, and a scorer in the post. Otherwise, play Ves at C and take advantage of his mobility to beat guys down court.

Basically, the problem is that Vesely isn't good enough offensively to play the 4 and must therefore play the 5. And he isn't good enough defensively to play the 4 so therefore must play the 3. Do you see the problem here?

At best, he's half a player, and that's only when he plays out of position. He could be competent defensively at the 3, but would be possibly the worst SF in history offensively. Likewise, he could be competent offensively at the 5 (because most teams don't need offense at the 5) but would be the worst post defender at the 5 in history. When he plays the 4, he's really bad both offensively and defensively, but not necessarily the worst in history, so I guess that's a plus.

Look, a guy that shoots 24% from the FT line has no place in the NBA. Maybe if he was an all-world defender at C, you could find space for him, but that's about it. Yes, there are lineups and systems where we could make Vesely look reasonably competent, but that's only by catering to his limitations. Any other half-decent player in the same role would do much better and give us a better chance at winning.

The only reason Vesely looked half-decent down the stretch last year was because teams hadn't scouted him. Now they have, and we can see how bad Vesely sucks. As Dat2U has pointed out over and over, Vesely's ceiling is Jared Jeffries without the dribbling ability. There's no reason to go out of our way to develop him. He's never going to be anything more than a mediocre role player, and that's in a best-case scenario.


Last season, during that 15-games as a starter, Vesely shot .551 FG and .643 FT. The Wizards went 8-7. Scouting or lack thereof is not why Vesely shot over 60% FTs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... pke01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lja01.html

Two players, aged 22 and 23 got considerably worse from 2011-2012 to 2012-2013. Kevin Seraphin took a steep decline in ORTG, PER, and WS/48 and so did Jan Vesely.

You can tell me there is no reason to invest heavily and how epically bad both guys are, and I can suggest that there is a very good explanation and that a different GM and coaches would have made sure both guys got better or maintained their confidence. The difference is at the end of last season both guys started and played a style and minutes suitable for them. When James Singleton was hitting outside shots in the frontcourt, both Vesely and Seraphin excelled.

I am not against trading either Jan or Kevin. In fact, I think the Wizards should trade Jan if they get any reasonable offer. Seraphin, however, is someone like Jan who is better than his current play.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#210 » by Nivek » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:43 pm

I thought Wittman was the developmental coach. Now he's incompetent too? Now he's failing to "develop" young players, just like Flip, Tapscott and Eddie?

The issue actually is not poor coaching or even poor player "development." It's their persistence in choosing players based on criteria other than how good guys are at playing basketball. They persist in picking unskilled athletes who they imagine could be good one day if they learn stuff like how to drinble or shoot, or get stronger, or gain experience, or...something. This is a bad way to assemble a roster, a bad way to build a team.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#211 » by DANNYLANDOVER » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:29 am

Nivek wrote:I thought Wittman was the developmental coach. Now he's incompetent too? Now he's failing to "develop" young players, just like Flip, Tapscott and Eddie?

The issue actually is not poor coaching or even poor player "development." It's their persistence in choosing players based on criteria other than how good guys are at playing basketball. They persist in picking unskilled athletes who they imagine could be good one day if they learn stuff like how to drinble or shoot, or get stronger, or gain experience, or...something. This is a bad way to assemble a roster, a bad way to build a team.

Thank you! I'm tired of hearing how playing Ves more mins or moving him to whatever position is gonna make him a decent player. The Wizards are an NBA team not a D-league team, just because he had a few average games last year doesn't mean he's an NBA player. I could care less if Ves was cut form the team; he's not going to help us out until his rookie deal is up, and we sure as hell will not be re-signing him after that.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#212 » by sashae » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:29 pm

(he a bust, he a bust)
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#213 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:42 pm

Nivek wrote:I thought Wittman was the developmental coach. Now he's incompetent too? Now he's failing to "develop" young players, just like Flip, Tapscott and Eddie?

The issue actually is not poor coaching or even poor player "development." It's their persistence in choosing players based on criteria other than how good guys are at playing basketball. They persist in picking unskilled athletes who they imagine could be good one day if they learn stuff like how to drinble or shoot, or get stronger, or gain experience, or...something. This is a bad way to assemble a roster, a bad way to build a team.


Vesely and Seraphin started and won 8 of 10 to end last season. Wittman was the coach. Both Vesely and Seraphin were very effective. Here are the game links.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 90CHA.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 00WAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 30NYK.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 60CHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 40WAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 80WAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 10MIA.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 30WAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 50CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 60WAS.html

The development of these players was stunted as I predicted the day the Okafor/Ariza trade was made.

The same guys the smartest of you, Nivek, and the most persistent in trying to say I am wrong, nate, are putting down now are very capable players. No one called the coach incompetent.

Vesely struggled more this season and Seraphin struggled more this season after moves Ernie and Ted made. Randy Wittman seems like a pretty good coach to me. I like the guy but there are only so many minutes to go around and both Vesely and Seraphin's minutes have changed. Their play has been much worse than last season and I believe I know why. I don't even want to search for the post but I predicted this would happen.

I think you guys like to pile on me and usually when you do you're wrong. This is no exception. Randy is no more an incompetent than Vesely is a player who will always foul more than he rebounds and scores. Jan is doing a great Oberto imitation this season after being told to gain weight and to try and play a different game than he played last season. He had to endure being demoted for Singleton to try PF (which he is better at than SF). Vesely also had an injury over the offseason. For those reasons and the presence of veterans who are playing while he does not, he's worse. That isn't the only thing that changed. Seraphin seems to me to simply be trying to score his way to more minutes. He is shot happy while Vesely is afraid to make mistakes and playing tentatively. Neither guy was doing this at the end of last season when they were sure to play 25 or so minutes. That is all I have tried to say. They also were starting with Wall.

Wall played with them but so did a very important contributor: James Singleton. His outside shooting with rebounding provided a stretch four that the team does not have right now. If the Wizards had not made the Okariza deal and had Wall been healthy, I think both Vesely and Seraphin would be enjoying success this season. I get a lot of flak for being a Wall hater. I guess I've earned it. I think it is bad to write off 22 and 23 year old players who are underperforming when all you have to do is go back 8 or 9 months. Seraphin had 16 straight double figure games and Vesely was solidly balling AND the Wizards were winning games.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#214 » by Nivek » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:02 pm

CCJ: I'm not piling on. As you well know, I hated the trade for Okafor and Ariza. I didn't like the trade for Nene either. :)

I agree with you that Vesely and Seraphin were more productive last season.

Minutes for Vesely and Seraphin have indeed changed. Vesely has earned diminished playing time with his poor performance. Despite a shooting percentage comparable to his rookie season, a career low in rebounding, and a career high in turnovers, Seraphin is playing the most minutes of his career. He's averaging slightly more minutes than Okafor.

You've indicated you think Wittman is a good coach. While I've kinda-sorta defended him in this thread, I don't think he's a good coach. I think he's bottom five in the NBA among head coaches. But, I don't think the regression of Vesely and Seraphin are on him. I think they were not very good picks in the first place. I think the front office has given Wittman a bad roster. And, I think that the poor play from Seraphin and Vesely is related primarily to the work (or lack thereof) that they put in during the offseason.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#215 » by tontoz » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:13 pm

Vesely is garbage. I would trade him for a pizza at this point.

Seraphin has been lousy this year but i am not ready to give up on him yet. I don't think his problems have anything to do with Wit. I think he may have been overly satisfied with his success during the second half of last season. Playing for the national team i don't think he really focused on improving his weaknesses.

He really has a huge mental block about taking it to the basket. I am not sure whether he can get past this but i am willing to wait until early next season. If he starts off next season playing the same way i would look to deal him.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#216 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:19 am

Today, Jan Vesely had 10 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists in 24:38 off the bench.

Also, Seraphin had 18 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, and 3 blocks in 28:13 off the bench.

Both guys CAN play and EVERYTHING I typed above is going to play out if the Wizards just wait. I said development was stunted and included no Wall as why. Now, the GREAT NEWS is this is the real deal for both players. Everybody is going to kick ass from here on if Wall and Nene stay healthy.

I hope the Wizards don't get stupid and trade right now (unless they send Booker, Singleton, and Crawford). I think they're better off keeping Ariza than going for Gay's deal right now. Give it 2 weeks and bargain from a position of STRENGTH and not desperation.

Right now the Wizards are a team on a winning streak and Vesely and Seraphin are showing potential.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#217 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:25 am

Nivek wrote:CCJ: I'm not piling on. As you well know, I hated the trade for Okafor and Ariza. I didn't like the trade for Nene either. :)

I agree with you that Vesely and Seraphin were more productive last season.

Minutes for Vesely and Seraphin have indeed changed. Vesely has earned diminished playing time with his poor performance. Despite a shooting percentage comparable to his rookie season, a career low in rebounding, and a career high in turnovers, Seraphin is playing the most minutes of his career. He's averaging slightly more minutes than Okafor.

You've indicated you think Wittman is a good coach. While I've kinda-sorta defended him in this thread, I don't think he's a good coach. I think he's bottom five in the NBA among head coaches. But, I don't think the regression of Vesely and Seraphin are on him. I think they were not very good picks in the first place. I think the front office has given Wittman a bad roster. And, I think that the poor play from Seraphin and Vesely is related primarily to the work (or lack thereof) that they put in during the offseason.


The regression was due to many things: No longer starting, coming off the bench, being pulled for mistakes unlike playing through mistakes last season, the absence of Wall, the absence of James Singleton stretching the defense, the presence of guys who did nothing to prove they were good until recently (Okafor and Ariza), and Wittman being forced to accommodate high-salaried players.

Today, both guys played great in a 29-point win. Vesely was +29 and Seraphin was +26. Watch and see if the Wizards do not trade either player that neither player is worse than last season.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#218 » by nate33 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:29 am

tontoz wrote:Vesely is garbage. I would trade him for a pizza at this point.

Seraphin has been lousy this year but i am not ready to give up on him yet. I don't think his problems have anything to do with Wit. I think he may have been overly satisfied with his success during the second half of last season. Playing for the national team i don't think he really focused on improving his weaknesses.

He really has a huge mental block about taking it to the basket. I am not sure whether he can get past this but i am willing to wait until early next season. If he starts off next season playing the same way i would look to deal him.

I agree. I have no hope that Vesely ever involves into somebody worth paying when his rookie deal expires.

I think there is still plenty of hope with Seraphin. I'm disappointed in him this year and I'm less confident in Seraphin than I was last year, but I'm certainly not writing him off. Seraphin seems like a guy who has improved in several areas (shooting the 17-footer, particularly) but he just hasn't put it together yet. He can't figure out opposing defenses and turns the ball over way too much. His problems are not with his skills, but in his basketball IQ - which is low due to lack of experience. I think it's possible that a light will click on and he'll suddenly become pretty good.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#219 » by Ruzious » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:45 am

There is something to what CCJ said. Players' effectiveness is affected by who they play with and what they're asked to do. The last time I said that, payitforward went on a diatribe acting like I offended the gods by speaking such heresy, so I'll say my peace and leave the discussion. When you have a player who can drive to the basket and create plays, it makes it much easier for players with limited skills like Seraphin and Vesely. When you have players who can lead the break, it makes it easier for those who can finish it. When you have a player who commands double-teams and understands team play (ala Tim Duncan), it makes it easier for all of his teammates. They make their teammates more effective.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#220 » by Rafael122 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:12 pm

Ruzious wrote:There is something to what CCJ said. Players' effectiveness is affected by who they play with and what they're asked to do. The last time I said that, payitforward went on a diatribe acting like I offended the gods by speaking such heresy, so I'll say my peace and leave the discussion. When you have a player who can drive to the basket and create plays, it makes it much easier for players with limited skills like Seraphin and Vesely. When you have players who can lead the break, it makes it easier for those who can finish it. When you have a player who commands double-teams and understands team play (ala Tim Duncan), it makes it easier for all of his teammates. They make their teammates more effective.


So what you're saying is Wall is Vesely's and Seraphin's only hope to become productive NBA players?
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