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Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust

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Is Jan Vesely a Bust?

Yes, I've seen enough, Jan Vesely is a Bust for a 6th pick
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76%
No, let's wait to see how he plays with JW and Nene
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24%
 
Total votes: 162

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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#221 » by closg00 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:18 pm

Rafael122 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:There is something to what CCJ said. Players' effectiveness is affected by who they play with and what they're asked to do. The last time I said that, payitforward went on a diatribe acting like I offended the gods by speaking such heresy, so I'll say my peace and leave the discussion. When you have a player who can drive to the basket and create plays, it makes it much easier for players with limited skills like Seraphin and Vesely. When you have players who can lead the break, it makes it easier for those who can finish it. When you have a player who commands double-teams and understands team play (ala Tim Duncan), it makes it easier for all of his teammates. They make their teammates more effective.


So what you're saying is Wall is Vesely's and Seraphin's only hope to become productive NBA players?


Seriously, I prefer basketball players who bring their own talents to the game. I repeat, you don't need to waste a 6th pick to find a guy who can finish a John Wall lob.....and that be their sole talent. Ok, Ves can also pass well when he is trying to avoid finishing himself :D
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#222 » by Ruzious » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:35 pm

Rafael122 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:There is something to what CCJ said. Players' effectiveness is affected by who they play with and what they're asked to do. The last time I said that, payitforward went on a diatribe acting like I offended the gods by speaking such heresy, so I'll say my peace and leave the discussion. When you have a player who can drive to the basket and create plays, it makes it much easier for players with limited skills like Seraphin and Vesely. When you have players who can lead the break, it makes it easier for those who can finish it. When you have a player who commands double-teams and understands team play (ala Tim Duncan), it makes it easier for all of his teammates. They make their teammates more effective.


So what you're saying is Wall is Vesely's and Seraphin's only hope to become productive NBA players?

No.

I think they need players to create for them if they're going to be successful, and they haven't had that this season. It doesn't have to be Wall.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#223 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:40 pm

I like Vesely's game. It's unfortunate that he was the best talent available at #6 in that draft because in a normal draft he'd have gone 15-20 and be considered good value. He's hyper aware and plays excellent team defense. He moves the ball on offense.

He added too much fat over the summer and it took him a third of the season to work it off. He seems to have retained a smidgen of the bulk and is a little harder to toss of the block (like psycho T did earlier this season).

Has got to work on his timing on pick and rolls and screens, to show to the ref he has clearly stopped before contact is made. This is obviously called very differently in Europe and is causing problems for Seraphin and Ves both (Pachulia just gets away with it). Now they have to go against their instincts, very difficult. Ves was also struggling with having lost a step due to being too fat. Last couple of games he has been moving more fluidly so I have hope he will finish off the season well.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#224 » by GhostsOfGil » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:43 pm

I agree Ruz. I touched on this during the game as well.

@closg, yes it's a shame the 6th pick was used to get a complimentary player but the point is, Vesely is a player who will preform much better now that he has someone to create offense for him.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#225 » by nate33 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:14 pm

Ruzious wrote:There is something to what CCJ said. Players' effectiveness is affected by who they play with and what they're asked to do. The last time I said that, payitforward went on a diatribe acting like I offended the gods by speaking such heresy, so I'll say my peace and leave the discussion. When you have a player who can drive to the basket and create plays, it makes it much easier for players with limited skills like Seraphin and Vesely. When you have players who can lead the break, it makes it easier for those who can finish it. When you have a player who commands double-teams and understands team play (ala Tim Duncan), it makes it easier for all of his teammates. They make their teammates more effective.

What you say is certainly true. Bad offensive players play much better alongside really good players who can force the defense off balance. But if a team is going to accommodate a bad offensive player like that, the bad offensive player better be really good on defense or some other facet of the game. If they aren't, the the team would be wise to bench that bad offensive player and go find another bad offensive player who can at least defend.

My problem with Vesely is that I don't think he provides enough in defense or intangibles to make up for his bad offensive play. It would be one thing if he was the PF version of Trevor Ariza, but he isn't. Vesely hustles and defends the pick-and-roll well, but he is terrible at post defense and on the glass.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#226 » by Nivek » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:19 pm

Vesely will be more productive if he's playing with guys who can basically do everything for him on the offensive end. But, he won't be a better PLAYER. As nate says, he'd need to be an all-world defender to make up for his skill deficiency on offense.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#227 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:34 pm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 40WAS.html

Code: Select all

                                                                                 
                  Basic Stats                                                             
Starters            FG FGA  FG% 3P 3PA   3P% FT FTA   FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Bradley Beal         7  10 .700  1   1 1.000  2   2 1.000   2   2   1   0   2  2  17
A.J. Price           5   9 .556  3   5  .600  5   6  .833   1   6   2   0   1  1  18
Emeka Okafor         8  13 .615  0   0        3   4  .750  11   2   0   1   1  1  19
Martell Webster      2   3 .667  1   2  .500  3   3 1.000   2   3   2   0   2  4   8
Nene Hilario         1   4 .250  0   0        0   0         3   0   0   0   0  1   2

Reserves            FG FGA  FG% 3P 3PA   3P% FT FTA   FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Kevin Seraphin       8  15 .533  0   0        2   2 1.000   5   4   0   3   2  5  18
Trevor Ariza         4   7 .571  1   2  .500  0   0         5   2   1   2   1  0   9
Jan Vesely           5   7 .714  0   0        0   2  .000   7   4   1   0   0  5  10
John Wall            3   8 .375  0   0        6   6 1.000   1   6   1   0   2  0  12
Garrett Temple       3   5 .600  1   1 1.000  0   0         4   3   0   0   0  2   7
Chris Singleton      0   1 .000  0   0        0   0         1   0   0   0   0  0   0
Team Totals         46  82 .561  7  11  .636 21  25  .840  42  32   8   6  11 21 120


Code: Select all

   
                   Advanced Stats
                               
Starters             MP  TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  ORtg DRtg
Bradley Beal      29:42 .781 .750  4.5  3.7  4.0  9.3  1.7  0.0 15.5  20.0   132  103
A.J. Price        28:11 .773 .722  4.7  0.0  2.1 27.3  3.6  0.0  7.9  20.7   155  100
Emeka Okafor      27:25 .644 .615  9.7 35.8 24.1 10.9  0.0  2.5  6.3  26.5   129   94
Martell Webster   19:02 .926 .833  0.0 11.5  6.3 18.5  5.4  0.0 31.6  15.3   132   92
Nene Hilario      15:46 .250 .250  0.0 20.8 11.4  0.0  0.0  0.0  0.0  11.7    55  101

Reserves             MP  TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV%  USG%  ORtg DRtg
Kevin Seraphin    28:13 .567 .533  4.7 15.5 10.6 21.0  0.0  7.4 11.2  29.2   112   97
Trevor Ariza      24:38 .643 .643  0.0 22.1 12.2 10.2  2.1  5.6 12.5  15.0   115   92
Jan Vesely        24:36 .635 .714 10.8 22.2 17.1 21.5  2.1  0.0  0.0  14.8   146   96
John Wall         19:49 .564 .375  6.7  0.0  3.0 37.5  2.6  0.0 15.8  29.4   122  102
Garrett Temple    18:18 .700 .700  0.0 23.8 13.1 20.6  0.0  0.0  0.0  12.6   153  100
Chris Singleton    4:20 .000 .000 30.8  0.0 13.8  0.0  0.0  0.0  0.0  10.7    79  108
Team Totals         240 .645 .604 25.0 75.0 52.5 69.6  8.6  8.5 10.6 100.0 128.3 97.3


This team performance by the Wizards against the Magic was very balanced and efficient both offensively and defensively. If you follow football and note perfect passer rating for a QB, this should grade out similarly perfect for a coach IMO.

Randy Wittman managed to use 10 players between 16 and 30 minutes. (Yeah, I think he is a pretty good coach). Nine of the 10 who played had at least 2 assists. Seraphin and Vesely each had 4 assists and both also scored in double figures. For the team: thirty-two assists and only 11 turnovers. Lockdown defense from Ariza, Webster, Okafor, and even Seraphin. Efficient offense performances were from Price, Vesely, Temple, Beal, Okafor and others. That type offense for this team is even more impressive. For a team that averages 89 points to score 120, a lot of things went well.

This is the type of team effort and good play that will get the best out of Vesely and Seraphin. Balanced scoring and the facilitating of Wall, with a lot of unselfishness and terrific defense. Wall's assist percentage is something no one else on this roster can attain. When there is no pressure on Vesely his game flows. Anytime Kevin doesn't have defenses keying on him, and when he is passing to others who score, that's great for his development.

Orlando is in free fall and so is Atlanta. I am curious about how the Wizards will fare the next few games on the west coast. They look good right now!
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#228 » by Ruzious » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:45 pm

Nivek wrote:Vesely will be more productive if he's playing with guys who can basically do everything for him on the offensive end. But, he won't be a better PLAYER. As nate says, he'd need to be an all-world defender to make up for his skill deficiency on offense.

I don't know if this is semantics, but I'll say it 1 last time and leave the conversation. If he's a more effective player playing with players of different skills, then he is a better player when he's playing with those players. This is true of every role player including all-time greats like Landry Fields and Steve Kerr. It seems - to me - that saying that's not a correct statement is pointless and a waste of energy, but to each his own. End of message.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#229 » by nate33 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:10 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Nivek wrote:Vesely will be more productive if he's playing with guys who can basically do everything for him on the offensive end. But, he won't be a better PLAYER. As nate says, he'd need to be an all-world defender to make up for his skill deficiency on offense.

I don't know if this is semantics, but I'll say it 1 last time and leave the conversation. If he's a more effective player playing with players of different skills, then he is a better player when he's playing with those players. This is true of every role player including all-time greats like Landry Fields and Steve Kerr. It seems - to me - that saying that's not a correct statement is pointless and a waste of energy, but to each his own. End of message.

Ruzious, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you. Certainly, I'm not. We are just saying that the fact that Vesely plays better with Wall doesn't mean squat. Nearly any player would play better with Wall. The relevant question is: is Vesely, when playing alongside Wall, a better player than Someone Else playing alongside Wall. I think the answer is generally, no. Therefore, Vesely isn't a keeper. (Not that you are arguing that Vesely is a keeper.)
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#230 » by tontoz » Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:53 pm

A case can be made that a playmaker like Wall would have a bigger positive impact on Ves than on another player. However i dont think Magic Johnson would make Ves a keeper.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#231 » by Zonkerbl » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:09 pm

Seems like you're asking the opposite question. Does Vesely have high value skills that other players don't have but are only apparent when playing with certain players? Vesely is a smart player whose (admittedly non-traditional) skills are maximized when playing with other smart players. Put him on a court full of morons and he disappears.

Not that I'm saying he's worth the #6 pick, I just feel you're being a little unfair to Ves. No he can't shoot or dribble. Yes he's still too undersized to defend the post one on one.

He has better than average passing skills that he hasn't been able to show because he has no one to pass to (and keeps getting in foul trouble). He has good rebounding skills but only when paired against another frontcourt player with muscle, so he can hustle after the garbage. In my mind he has much better than average team defense skills. And he fills the lane better than average on transition, which is more valuable on a team that runs a lot, and this team hardly ran at all before Wall came back. Ves' productivity is particularly sensitive to the teammates he has around him (and their playing style), I would say unusually so, more than other players with more traditional skills. But those skills are there. I see them. Again, not pick #6 level skills, but he's not a total schmuck either.

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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#232 » by Ruzious » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:24 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Nivek wrote:Vesely will be more productive if he's playing with guys who can basically do everything for him on the offensive end. But, he won't be a better PLAYER. As nate says, he'd need to be an all-world defender to make up for his skill deficiency on offense.

I don't know if this is semantics, but I'll say it 1 last time and leave the conversation. If he's a more effective player playing with players of different skills, then he is a better player when he's playing with those players. This is true of every role player including all-time greats like Landry Fields and Steve Kerr. It seems - to me - that saying that's not a correct statement is pointless and a waste of energy, but to each his own. End of message.

Ruzious, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you. Certainly, I'm not. We are just saying that the fact that Vesely plays better with Wall doesn't mean squat. Nearly any player would play better with Wall. The relevant question is: is Vesely, when playing alongside Wall, a better player than Someone Else playing alongside Wall. I think the answer is generally, no. Therefore, Vesely isn't a keeper. (Not that you are arguing that Vesely is a keeper.)

My apologies. That's not what I was getting at. My point was about how players are defined by some folks - and goes back to an old discussion where some insisted that a player is what he is - no matter what team he's on. In other words, when evaluating a player, it's irrelevant what team a player is on and who his teammates and coaches are. My point was - whether a player is good or not depends on their effectiveness with their teammates and coaches - and that effectiveness changes if you change the teammates and coaches. A "good player" is not good no matter what team he's on. Anyway, just trying to clarify - not trying to get into a discussion.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#233 » by barelyawake » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:30 pm

Absolutely agree, Ruz. And that is where statistics fail, as I have said all along. Stats show what happened in the past given a certain set of circumstances, not what could happen if those circumstances change.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#234 » by nate33 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:36 pm

I would agree with that too.

And I'll go one step further and say that Vesely really seems like a guy who gets boosted by good PG play to a greater degree than an average player. If you compare Vesely to an average PF on a team without good PG play, Vesely looks spectacularly bad. If you compare Vesely to an average PF on a team with good PG play and smart teammates, Vesely might even look like he is comparable to that average PF. The average PF would surely be better at post defense and hitting an 18-foot jumper, but Vesely does some things (like set screens, roll hard to the basket, run the floor, keep the ball moving, scrap for loose balls) better than an average PF.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#235 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:59 am

barelyawake wrote:Absolutely agree, Ruz. And that is where statistics fail, as I have said all along. Stats show what happened in the past given a certain set of circumstances, not what could happen if those circumstances change.


+1

If you look at statistics only, Doc Rivers was fired as Orlando head coach when his record was 1-10. The next season he was hired by Boston. His coaching record his first three seasons in Boston: 45-37, 33-49, and 24-58.

The following season his Cs went 66-16 and won the NBA Championship!

http://www.basketball-reference.com/coa ... do01c.html

Players don't get better but role players certainly gravy train on success when they have stars around them. Rondo and Perkins were on that 24-58 Celtics. So were Delonte West, Tony Allen, Leon Powe, and Al Jefferson. Those guys THEN were on a .293 team (very similar to this Wizards team in win potential NOW). They were young and inexperienced. Every one of the players enjoyed future success with the Celtics or other playoff teams.

Vesely and Seraphin can be good role players under different circumstances. (I would love to see both with Cousins next season on this Wizards team.) We can learn from history if we study closely. Vesely and Seraphin are not throwaway players. They can enjoy future success no matter how their statistics look right now.

Likewise, I say with assurance that Coach Randy Wittman is not much different than his NBA teammate Doc Rivers. Give Wittman talented players and he's going to win games, too.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#236 » by hands11 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:15 am

nate33 wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Nivek wrote:Vesely will be more productive if he's playing with guys who can basically do everything for him on the offensive end. But, he won't be a better PLAYER. As nate says, he'd need to be an all-world defender to make up for his skill deficiency on offense.

I don't know if this is semantics, but I'll say it 1 last time and leave the conversation. If he's a more effective player playing with players of different skills, then he is a better player when he's playing with those players. This is true of every role player including all-time greats like Landry Fields and Steve Kerr. It seems - to me - that saying that's not a correct statement is pointless and a waste of energy, but to each his own. End of message.

Ruzious, I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you. Certainly, I'm not. We are just saying that the fact that Vesely plays better with Wall doesn't mean squat. Nearly any player would play better with Wall. The relevant question is: is Vesely, when playing alongside Wall, a better player than Someone Else playing alongside Wall. I think the answer is generally, no. Therefore, Vesely isn't a keeper. (Not that you are arguing that Vesely is a keeper.)


There is no proof of that.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#237 » by payitforward » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:43 am

nate33 wrote:...Nearly any player would play better with Wall.

Whoa there... last year, with John Wall averaging 35+ minutes a game, we started the season 14-46. Didn't we? Do I have that right? So... exactly what would make you elevate him in this (to me nonsensical) way?

I keep trying to figure out where claims like this come from.

Wins and losses -- that's the sole measure of a team. Nothing else matters -- or at least it doesn't matter until you get lots of wins and few losses. Wins and losses are determined by numbers. Nothing else.

Contributing to team wins and losses by what you do on the court -- that's the sole measure of an individual player. Nothing else matters. That contribution is measured by numbers. Nothing else. After all, to get the team numbers, the ones that fully determine whether you win or lose, all you have to do is add up the individuals' numbers.

Overall, John Wall's numbers are those of an average nba point guard. Some of them are very good; others are very bad. Really bad. Overall... meh. I hope John Wall turns out to be an outstanding player. To date, he hasn't shown that he can produce consistently at a high level.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#238 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:48 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTEhFtFhKaQ[/youtube]

Jan is once again playing like an Energizer Bunny. Setting screens, moving off the ball, going back door for lob dunks, cleaning up the glass, scoring garbage points.

What I notice especially is Jan's good rapport with Kevin Seraphin. Kevin bounce passed to Jan and Jan returned the favor with a wraparound pass to Kevin. He later throws a great bounce pass for another dunk. Vesely does a very nice job of catching and kicking out passes to perimeter shooters.

What impresses me is he beat Vucevic for rebounds many times. Vucevic had a 29-rebound game, but he has a hard time keeping up with a swift Vesely. Positional rebounders have to exert energy to box him out because they have to try and beat him to the spot.

I wish this video showed each foul and also his missed FTs. Those are areas where he needs the most improvement.

What I see with Vesely is how much confidence affects his performance, and how much more effective Jan Vesely is in uptempo games. When he is settled down, his screening and passing make him useful even in halfcourt--providing perimeter guys hit shots.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#239 » by payitforward » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:07 am

Ruzious wrote:...My point was about how players are defined by some folks - and goes back to an old discussion where some insisted that a player is what he is - no matter what team he's on. In other words, when evaluating a player, it's irrelevant what team a player is on and who his teammates and coaches are. My point was - whether a player is good or not depends on their effectiveness with their teammates and coaches - and that effectiveness changes if you change the teammates and coaches. A "good player" is not good no matter what team he's on. Anyway, just trying to clarify - not trying to get into a discussion.

This is an empirical question. The way you'd answer it is by looking at the numbers players put up as they move from team to team, coach to coach, group of teammates to a different group of teammates.

There is no other way to decide this issue. In particular, watching Jan Vesely have a terrific game in a game John Wall also played in tells you nothing. (In fact, some of the best stuff he did last night was with Price at the point, not Wall. Nor did Wall help him get a lot of rebounds, etc.)

This issue has been studied. Extensively. Read Chapter 8 of Berri's Stumbling on Wins. There's not a lot of evidence that a player's "...effectiveness changes if you change teammates and coaches." In fact, the evidence points in exactly the opposite direction, suggesting that you're wrong in saying "A "good player" is not good no matter what team he's on."

I.e. in fact Chris Paul is good in LA, just as he was in NO. And that sentence can be repeated hundreds of times substituting different names and the initials of different teams. Pretty much, that's the way it is. Good players are good players. Good teams are good because of the good players on the team. That's about it.
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nate33
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#240 » by nate33 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:24 am

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:...Nearly any player would play better with Wall.

Whoa there... last year, with John Wall averaging 35+ minutes a game, we started the season 14-46. Didn't we? Do I have that right? So... exactly what would make you elevate him in this (to me nonsensical) way?

I keep trying to figure out where claims like this come from.

Wins and losses -- that's the sole measure of a team. Nothing else matters -- or at least it doesn't matter until you get lots of wins and few losses. Wins and losses are determined by numbers. Nothing else.

Contributing to team wins and losses by what you do on the court -- that's the sole measure of an individual player. Nothing else matters. That contribution is measured by numbers. Nothing else. After all, to get the team numbers, the ones that fully determine whether you win or lose, all you have to do is add up the individuals' numbers.

Overall, John Wall's numbers are those of an average nba point guard. Some of them are very good; others are very bad. Really bad. Overall... meh. I hope John Wall turns out to be an outstanding player. To date, he hasn't shown that he can produce consistently at a high level.

We would have been worse than 14-46 without him.

I'm not saying Wall is a superstar. I'm merely saying he is a true PG that knows how to make life easier for his teammates. Outside of Wall, nobody else on the roster can do this. Have you been watching the last 3 games. Do you honestly think Vesely would be playing like this if Sheldon Mack was PG?

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