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Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust

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Is Jan Vesely a Bust?

Yes, I've seen enough, Jan Vesely is a Bust for a 6th pick
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No, let's wait to see how he plays with JW and Nene
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24%
 
Total votes: 162

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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#81 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Dec 9, 2012 3:51 am

noworriesinmd wrote:Just got back from the game. Got a pretty cool perk for having seasons tickets...I got to talk to a coach before the game. The fans who were in the room could ask really candid questions and one was about Vesely and if he was a wasted pick.

Whether or not the answer is true, it made sense.

They explained that confidence is really important to Athletes. Just think of JC, who brushes off missing a 40ft shot,...knowing he'd take the shot again vs Blache. After leaving DC, Blache is now in semi-beast mode. It has to suck being booed every time you get the ball and I know that effected him.

Vesely might be in the same funk. It was explained that Vesely is at zero confidence. I can't tell you statistically if he will improve or if the pick was wasted, but the explanation makes sense. He's a hustle guy, the Scouting reports showed something. I know some on the board didn't like the pick, but we have who we have....the scouting reports might have some truth in them.


I didn't like the pick but I really like Jan Vesely the person. He seems like an intelligent, sensitive young man.

What the Wizards could do to protect their investment in Vesely is to allow him to get his confidence up in the D-League. Stick with him. He hustles and he cares. If his confidence is waning the Wizards could hook the guy up with a sports psychologist. They need to make sure he's not feeling deprived of whatever he needs to excel. If he's homesick, they could see if there is a GF they might bring over here if that's what he wants/needs.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#82 » by Ed Wood » Sun Dec 9, 2012 4:02 am

CCJ please, don't put more weight behind the "let's just stick whatever the hell power forward at small forward, because rebounding or whatever, Caron Butler at shooting guard" argument. It's always bad, and it's on like its forth iteration now that I can remember across all of our terrible rosters and all of our tall players with no perimeter skills. Andray Blatche was consigned to just that fate and we've just recovered from a spell centered around Trevor Booker mostly because he doesn't ever play any positions anymore. It actually happened with Jared Jeffries and it was as miserable as you might expect, and that was with an otherwise really strong offensive roster.

Can we maybe just hold up those scouting reports and say "those guys were full of crap, huh" and not pretend it'll fix anything to take the guy whose lack of skills and confidence issues prevent him from being offensively viable as an interior player and stick him at small forward when we're like the worst offensive team in basketball already.

I'm not kidding when I say I honestly think the "big man X at small forward" is the worst persistent proposed basketball strategy that has been advocated by more than one person on the board with any regularity, the worst.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#83 » by nate33 » Sun Dec 9, 2012 4:37 am

Ed Wood wrote:CCJ please, don't put more weight behind the "let's just stick whatever the hell power forward at small forward, because rebounding or whatever, Caron Butler at shooting guard" argument. It's always bad, and it's on like its forth iteration now that I can remember across all of our terrible rosters and all of our tall players with no perimeter skills. Andray Blatche was consigned to just that fate and we've just recovered from a spell centered around Trevor Booker mostly because he doesn't ever play any positions anymore. It actually happened with Jared Jeffries and it was as miserable as you might expect, and that was with an otherwise really strong offensive roster.

Can we maybe just hold up those scouting reports and say "those guys were full of crap, huh" and not pretend it'll fix anything to take the guy whose lack of skills and confidence issues prevent him from being offensively viable as an interior player and stick him at small forward when we're like the worst offensive team in basketball already.

I'm not kidding when I say I honestly think the "big man X at small forward" is the worst persistent proposed basketball strategy that has been advocated by more than one person on the board with any regularity, the worst.

Plus infinity.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#84 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Dec 9, 2012 4:53 am

Ed Wood wrote:CCJ please, don't put more weight behind the "let's just stick whatever the hell power forward at small forward, because rebounding or whatever, Caron Butler at shooting guard" argument. It's always bad, and it's on like its forth iteration now that I can remember across all of our terrible rosters and all of our tall players with no perimeter skills. Andray Blatche was consigned to just that fate and we've just recovered from a spell centered around Trevor Booker mostly because he doesn't ever play any positions anymore. It actually happened with Jared Jeffries and it was as miserable as you might expect, and that was with an otherwise really strong offensive roster.

Can we maybe just hold up those scouting reports and say "those guys were full of crap, huh" and not pretend it'll fix anything to take the guy whose lack of skills and confidence issues prevent him from being offensively viable as an interior player and stick him at small forward when we're like the worst offensive team in basketball already.

I'm not kidding when I say I honestly think the "big man X at small forward" is the worst persistent proposed basketball strategy that has been advocated by more than one person on the board with any regularity, the worst.


Ed, the answer is put four offensively viable options around Vesely and let Jan be Jan.

Start: Crawford, Beal, Vesely, Nene, Seraphin

What I think Ed, is that your opinion that he cannot play SF contradicts those who get paid to evaluate such who said he MIGHT be able to do.

Your opinion is just as valid as mine, Ed. My opinion is Vesely can effectively play SF if others bring the offense.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#85 » by Jay81 » Sun Dec 9, 2012 4:57 am

vesley is not this bad. He was actually really good in the last month last year when we used him the right way and he had John Wall. He cannot survive in an offense like we have now. He would be a great fit in Minnesota with Love and Rubio. I wonder if we can trade Vesley and Thomas our 2nd round pick for Derrick Williams straight up
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#86 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:01 am

nate33 wrote:
Ed Wood wrote:CCJ please, don't put more weight behind the "let's just stick whatever the hell power forward at small forward, because rebounding or whatever, Caron Butler at shooting guard" argument. It's always bad, and it's on like its forth iteration now that I can remember across all of our terrible rosters and all of our tall players with no perimeter skills. Andray Blatche was consigned to just that fate and we've just recovered from a spell centered around Trevor Booker mostly because he doesn't ever play any positions anymore. It actually happened with Jared Jeffries and it was as miserable as you might expect, and that was with an otherwise really strong offensive roster.

Can we maybe just hold up those scouting reports and say "those guys were full of crap, huh" and not pretend it'll fix anything to take the guy whose lack of skills and confidence issues prevent him from being offensively viable as an interior player and stick him at small forward when we're like the worst offensive team in basketball already.

I'm not kidding when I say I honestly think the "big man X at small forward" is the worst persistent proposed basketball strategy that has been advocated by more than one person on the board with any regularity, the worst.

Plus infinity.


Regardless of what you guys say, Vesely is a unique player who can run like a SF and he can play there IMO.

As for Caron Butler at SG:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 537AANt3B0

He's more of small forward but he did play shooting guard when the mavericks acquired him from the wizards and shawn marion on the small forward. this was the tall lineup they can do next season if healthy.
PG: Jason Kidd
SG: Caron Butler
SF: Shawn Marion
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Tyson Chandler.
he can play both positions.


You can ask Rick Carlisle infinitely many times why he as an NBA Head Coach did this, you two freaking geniuses!

And since you know so damned much, ED, try to explain why IT WORKED!!!!

http://www.82games.com/0910/09DAL9.HTM

Today, someone died. I"M not in the freaking mood. You guys can have your opinions but it seemed like Ed's post was personal.

I didn't call either you out but I will say if you want some, BRING IT!
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#87 » by Ed Wood » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:14 am

The problem there is that you're "putting offensively viable options" which we don't have around a guy who is frankly a very marginal NBA player right now just to make him work at a position he isn't suited for (like less suited for than the positions he normally plays and is already bad at). You'd have to be running Dirk out there or something at power forward to cover for Jan as a small forward and even then you're "covering" as opposed to sticking a natural small forward and a decent player at the position and generally being much better for it.

Going so far as to give up on Jan at this point leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I'd go ahead and give him a shot once Wall returns in the most offensively competent lineups we can scrape together to maximize the synergistic stuff that is (not actually) his saving grace but even then that's based entirely on a desire to get get a return on an investment.

So sure, opinions are our individual prerogative and we'll each have our own but I'm arguing, as we do when we share opinions on this site, that the support you provided for this one is just not pulling its weight. It's mostly scouting reports from a bunch of talking heads who thought it was a good idea to draft Vesely in the first place. When I see phrases in there like:

His length should give difficulties to nearly every SF trying to guard him
Jan has the seasoning and skills to start right away in the NBA
Can be effective in either a half-court system


I see a lot of stuff that clearly hasn't been true of Vesely in the NBA.

If Ves were a natural small forward and had the requisite skills he'd be an incredibly problematic cover for power forwards, simply playing him at another position doesn't actually affect whether or not he can do something like shoot. You stick a run-of-the-mill small forward like Dorrell Wright at power forward and while he'd be a disaster defensively he'd be perfectly able to exploit his skills and be a visibly effective offensive player. Vesely isn't.

edit: None of this is personal CCJ, though I personally hate the super-impractical-oversized lineup thing. Sorry to hear today hasn't been a good day for you, never let any of this be anything but something you do because you enjoy it. I'm happy to take it if you want to dish it, but my mindset is always that if someone wants to share something on the site they also want genuine (but not offensive and I certainly don't mean to offend) responses to it.

edit 2: If we actually want to talk about Caron Butler in 2012 for some reason I guess I'll point out that 82's data suggests he was still better at small forward, as his +3.6 vs +.2 PER differential advantage at small forward vs shooting guard suggests.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#88 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Dec 9, 2012 6:04 am

Ed, I was taking my kids to school the other day and a fatality happened nearby. Today, a friend's brother was killed. I've had pneumonia that seems to be okay but caused concerns. Life, also is happening in other ways that are just life.

I try to put stuff out of my mind but a young person dying shakes me up. Sorry, to you and to nate.

edit 2: If we actually want to talk about Caron Butler in 2012 for some reason I guess I'll point out that 82's data suggests he was still better at small forward, as his +3.6 vs +.2 PER differential advantage at small forward vs shooting guard suggests.


I don't doubt Caron is way better at SF. Vesely is better at PF but the reason I say play him at SF is there is no room on the roster for him to play PF.

Nene, Booker, Singleton (now), and even Okafor and Seraphin can each play the PF position better than Jan Vesely. Sucks that he went 6 but I'm trying to figure a way to salvage that dude's mind and his career. Seems to me when Ariza went down that presented an opportunity to say that by default Jan is going to switch. Now, if you played organized basketball at a high level (and I have NOT) you know that plays which call for the SF to run off of screens or to shoot baseline jumpers do not suit Jan Vesely's skill set. You don't want him spotting up for a three. At the other end you don't want Jan Vesely trying to move laterally to cover a guy like Kevin Durant. I think if this is why you or nate object so vehemently, I understand.

I'm just saying try and make lemonade out of what's been a lemon. Players like Vesely need minutes in order for ANY confidence to occur. His contribution has to be energy, dunks, hustle points, a block here and there. I would try to make him a Luc Mbah a Moute/Jared Jeffries/Dominic McGuire-type contributor on the court. None of those guys are on good teams. Not one is a great player. But Jared was on a playoff team. So was Mbah a Moute. Both have been in the league for years (Dom until recently).

Vesely should IMO be a utility guy who is in to run and harass people. He can play SOME SF when the other team has a three and D type SF who is not an explosive scorer. Vesely can play SOME SF when the Wizards have Nene or Singleton at PF and Seraphin at C.

The reason to play Vesely is to give him minutes and build his confidence. Don't waste starting Webster with Singleton in a diminutive lineup that cannot rebound.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#89 » by hands11 » Sun Dec 9, 2012 7:14 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Ed, I was taking my kids to school the other day and a fatality happened nearby. Today, a friend's brother was killed. I've had pneumonia that seems to be okay but caused concerns. Life, also is happening in other ways that are just life.

I try to put stuff out of my mind but a young person dying shakes me up. Sorry, to you and to nate.

edit 2: If we actually want to talk about Caron Butler in 2012 for some reason I guess I'll point out that 82's data suggests he was still better at small forward, as his +3.6 vs +.2 PER differential advantage at small forward vs shooting guard suggests.


I don't doubt Caron is way better at SF. Vesely is better at PF but the reason I say play him at SF is there is no room on the roster for him to play PF.

Nene, Booker, Singleton (now), and even Okafor and Seraphin can each play the PF position better than Jan Vesely. Sucks that he went 6 but I'm trying to figure a way to salvage that dude's mind and his career. Seems to me when Ariza went down that presented an opportunity to say that by default Jan is going to switch. Now, if you played organized basketball at a high level (and I have NOT) you know that plays which call for the SF to run off of screens or to shoot baseline jumpers do not suit Jan Vesely's skill set. You don't want him spotting up for a three. At the other end you don't want Jan Vesely trying to move laterally to cover a guy like Kevin Durant. I think if this is why you or nate object so vehemently, I understand.

I'm just saying try and make lemonade out of what's been a lemon. Players like Vesely need minutes in order for ANY confidence to occur. His contribution has to be energy, dunks, hustle points, a block here and there. I would try to make him a Luc Mbah a Moute/Jared Jeffries/Dominic McGuire-type contributor on the court. None of those guys are on good teams. Not one is a great player. But Jared was on a playoff team. So was Mbah a Moute. Both have been in the league for years (Dom until recently).

Vesely should IMO be a utility guy who is in to run and harass people. He can play SOME SF when the other team has a three and D type SF who is not an explosive scorer. Vesely can play SOME SF when the Wizards have Nene or Singleton at PF and Seraphin at C.

The reason to play Vesely is to give him minutes and build his confidence. Don't waste starting Webster with Singleton in a diminutive lineup that cannot rebound.


Starting

Price
Beal
Webster
Singleton
Okafor

is about as bad as you can get. Not sure adding Ves to that would help or be any worse.

Price
Beal
Ves
Singleton
Okafor

That would still be a pretty bad line up. There is no primary scorer out there.

But now that Price is out, you will have Crawford play creating and driving out there more. That will make for better situations for Ves. He can play with Crawford and Nene on the floor. That would be a good place to start with him again.

Crawford
Webster
Singleton
Ves
Nene

That would work just fine. Ves has skills, but they are passing, scrapping, keeping balls in play and running the floor. That means he needs other players out there that can shoot and who will play a pro style game. He needs to be able to find Crawford to get out on a break and he needs a player like Crawford to hit him in the right spots. If not, he will quick pass to Nene on the weak side.

I don't think Ves is a bust. I just think the line ups have sucked and don't suit him. But that is true of more then just Ves given Randys line ups. Good news is that the recent injuries are going to help. Randy has less options which is going to force him into better line ups. Starting with Crawford at PG.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#90 » by payitforward » Sun Dec 9, 2012 3:08 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:WHAT DID SCOUTS SAY ABOUT VESELY?
...(bunch of positive assessments...)

Okay, that's what the experts said about JV.

When they were collecting all this information I was saying draft Kenneth Faried. Above all, don't draft Vesely. I had a bias two ways. One guy I really liked and another I thought was shaky. That said, I appreciate what Jan does well and I think he is a useful guy in the right system....

I remember David Blatt's assessment -- essentially that Jan didn't, and likely would never be able to, play an "NBA-style game."

However he turns out, he was clearly a whiff as a #6 pick. :(
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#91 » by mhd » Sun Dec 9, 2012 5:45 pm

noworriesinmd wrote:Just got back from the game. Got a pretty cool perk for having seasons tickets...I got to talk to a coach before the game. The fans who were in the room could ask really candid questions and one was about Vesely and if he was a wasted pick.

Whether or not the answer is true, it made sense.

They explained that confidence is really important to Athletes. Just think of JC, who brushes off missing a 40ft shot,...knowing he'd take the shot again vs Blache. After leaving DC, Blache is now in semi-beast mode. It has to suck being booed every time you get the ball and I know that effected him.

Vesely might be in the same funk. It was explained that Vesely is at zero confidence. I can't tell you statistically if he will improve or if the pick was wasted, but the explanation makes sense. He's a hustle guy, the Scouting reports showed something. I know some on the board didn't like the pick, but we have who we have....the scouting reports might have some truth in them.



WOW, any more snippets you could share?
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#92 » by llcc25 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:42 am

why are Wiz so against sending Vesely down to NBDL? i can't understand it. there's nothing to lose at this point. he can't get any worse.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#93 » by MikeTheKid » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:45 am

llcc25 wrote:why are Wiz so against sending Vesely down to NBDL? i can't understand it. there's nothing to lose at this point. he can't get any worse.


Because if he gets tooled (he definitely will) in the D-League he'll have absolutely ZERO trade value if the Wiz look to get rid of him. I think me and Hands or Nivek talked about once I believe. Also how embarrassing would it make the Wiz look if they sent there #6 pick whose an absolute bust to the NBDL. Of course Thabeet has been to the DL too so it wouldn't hurt to send Ves.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#94 » by closg00 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:15 am

Valanciunas May Work With Olajuwon In Summer
Dec 09, 2012 12:25 PM EST


Jonas Valanciunas is shooting just 50.7 percent from the field over his first 20 games and like many NBA big men, the Toronto Raptors are considering having him work with Hakeem Olajuwon on his post game.

"Dwane actually mentioned this week the possibility of having him work with Olajuwon this summer and as long as someone write a check big enough, it’ll happen," said Casey. "Guess it can’t hurt."


It's a good thing Jonas wasn't drafted by the Wizards, he'd be sitting on a bench and told to "pay for it himself"
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#95 » by BruceO » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:06 pm

the guy i hoped would be available from that year enes kanter is starting to show why i liked him. annoyed me to hell when people emailed ted to tell him to consider enes his response was have you or anyone even seen him play. The utah gm went to watch him practice with the UK team. Then i knew the writing was on the wall, no way them or cavs would pass on him
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#96 » by GhostsOfGil » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:47 pm

BruceO wrote:the guy i hoped would be available from that year enes kanter is starting to show why i liked him. annoyed me to hell when people emailed ted to tell him to consider enes his response was have you or anyone even seen him play. The utah gm went to watch him practice with the UK team. Then i knew the writing was on the wall, no way them or cavs would pass on him


Ya Kanter was #1 on draft board as well... although Seraphin has been the guy I thought Kanter would turn out to be.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#97 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:46 pm

Bump for Vesely getting his first minutes of the month. He was 0-1 from the floor, 0-2 from the line (with another airball), 2 rebounds, 1 assist and 1 foul in 3 minutes of action.

On the season, he has now played in 15 games. He has totaled 29 points, 32 rebounds and 35 fouls. He is 3-15 from the free throw line including at least 3 airballs that I recall.

I know I'm piling on at this point, but I don't care. The offensive ineptitude is one thing; but a professional basketball player who makes $4M a year deserves my scorn when he can only shoot 20% from the free throw line. There is NO excuse for this at all. He is an embarrassment to the team and to the league.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#98 » by Nivek » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:53 pm

Vesely is making just $3.3 million this year. Obviously your expectations for him are way out of line. What do you expect for a measly $3.3 million? Drawing iron on a free throw attempt? Unrealistic to expect such high standards.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#99 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:55 pm

I stand corrected. Nevermind then. Vesely is swell.
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Re: Jan Vesely Part II: He a Bust 

Post#100 » by sashae » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:21 pm

At this point, what possible reason do they have for not sending him to the D-League? He's so far into his own head at this point that sitting on the bench and being brought in like some sort of booby prize during blowouts is not helping.
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