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Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II

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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#121 » by Kanyewest » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:24 pm

Seraphin is actually playing better this month. He is shooting 49% from the field and 82% from the free throw line. Also appears to be turning it over less.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#122 » by Nivek » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:29 pm

I think you guys are engaging in wishful thinking on Seraphin. I don't see improvement from him on the floor or in the numbers. If he has a good game, he follows it up with bad.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#123 » by tontoz » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:23 pm

Seraphin is definitely passing out of double teams more often lately. He seems to be getting a lot of hockey assists. He has also been trying different moves down low on at times with mixed results.

He isn't as good a defender as Okafor but he is still good. He rotates well, challenges shots and wont allow layups.

His rebounding is still horrible. That is my biggest concern.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#124 » by Kanyewest » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:46 pm

tontoz wrote:Seraphin is definitely passing out of double teams more often lately. He seems to be getting a lot of hockey assists. He has also been trying different moves down low on at times with mixed results.

He isn't as good a defender as Okafor but he is still good. He rotates well, challenges shots and wont allow layups.

His rebounding is still horrible. That is my biggest concern.


Agreed. He was a black hole on offense and now he's at least passing the ball out to his teammates. He looks like an ok backup center. As a starter, well that remains to be seen because of his consistency.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#125 » by Nivek » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:07 pm

Here's a look at Seraphin month-by-month this season -- stats are pace-adjusted per 40 minutes:

Code: Select all

KS      GMS     MPG     PPA     USG     ORTG    PTS     REB     AST     TOV     BLK
Nov     13      24.5    29      26.0%   87      18.9    9.0     1.9     3.9     1.5
Dec     14      24.9    19      21.8%   85      16.3    8.6     1.0     2.5     1.5
Jan     16      24.3    23      22.7%   88      17.6    7.1     1.3     2.7     1.1
Feb     10      14.4    -20     18.3%   81      12.9    8.3     0.8     3.0     0.6
Mar     14      17.1    16      20.0%   94      16.7    7.3     1.2     2.9     1.5


He is indeed improved from February, but he's still been awful in March. He's less horrifically terrible than he was in February, so...progress I guess. His FG% is better, but the improvement over his season average amounts to 3 made FGs in the month of March. His FT shooting is better, which would help if he'd get to the line more often. He rebounds (still) like a SF.

Bright side is that he's shooting a little less often than he did earlier in the season.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#126 » by gordito » Fri Apr 5, 2013 2:19 pm

Why is this guy trash now? Thought he showed so much potential last season. My god.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#127 » by tontoz » Fri Apr 5, 2013 2:55 pm

gordito wrote:Why is this guy trash now? Thought he showed so much potential last season. My god.


Other teams aren't blind. After his scoring burst last season they scouted him and are not giving him the time to set up for short, easy jump hooks all the time. They are doubling him and pressuring him, and giving him a free pass to shoot jumpers which he seems more than willing to do.

the flaws that were apparent last year (rebounding and failing to attack the rim) are just more obvious this year. I think he is basically the same player that he was last year it is just that teams have adjusted the way they play him.

Now it is up to Seraphin to address is glaring weaknesses.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#128 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Apr 5, 2013 3:03 pm

Nivek wrote:Here's a look at Seraphin month-by-month this season -- stats are pace-adjusted per 40 minutes:

Code: Select all

KS      GMS     MPG     PPA     USG     ORTG    PTS     REB     AST     TOV     BLK
Nov     13      24.5    29      26.0%   87      18.9    9.0     1.9     3.9     1.5
Dec     14      24.9    19      21.8%   85      16.3    8.6     1.0     2.5     1.5
Jan     16      24.3    23      22.7%   88      17.6    7.1     1.3     2.7     1.1
Feb     10      14.4    -20     18.3%   81      12.9    8.3     0.8     3.0     0.6
Mar     14      17.1    16      20.0%   94      16.7    7.3     1.2     2.9     1.5


He is indeed improved from February, but he's still been awful in March. He's less horrifically terrible than he was in February, so...progress I guess. His FG% is better, but the improvement over his season average amounts to 3 made FGs in the month of March. His FT shooting is better, which would help if he'd get to the line more often. He rebounds (still) like a SF.

Bright side is that he's shooting a little less often than he did earlier in the season.


There is no reason in the world for him to be worse than he was 365 days ago. Seraphin's circumstances have changed and he is no longer a starter, one capable of putting up double figures nightly. Maybe he was looser, more patient, more confident, and more fluid last season because he was getting minutes and not worried about being pulled for mistakes. Also, as a starter he probably didn't get called for as many fouls. (I believe that is very true for Vesely. As a starter he fouls less.)

Seraphin does seem to be passing more and shooting less. I think if he can get 5 starts in a row and/or significant minutes Kevin will play significantly better.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#129 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Apr 5, 2013 3:13 pm

gordito wrote:Why is this guy trash now? Thought he showed so much potential last season. My god.


He is not trash now. He and Vesely are a lot better than what the Wizards development for them has allowed. The negative to the veteran additions is it bumped the young guys down. I predicted this would happen. I even posted this past July the Wizards might ruin the careers of Booker, Seraphin, and Vesely.

People question my logic in saying that. They say nobody made these players worse. I think it is not they are worse but they are frustrated, demoralized, displaced, at times outplayed by veterans who make 5 or 10 times what they make, or they may want to be elsewhere. You cannot give someone time and attention and starters minutes one season but bust them down to DNP CDs and token minutes here and there the next and not expect some sort of fallout.

Seraphin played incredibly bad ball this season. It's a bit better now. I contend he's the very same player that GMs like Sam Presti and many others were interested in back in 2011.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kev ... phin-5278/

Seraphin has the flexibility of coming to the NBA immediately or staying for another year in France. He’s supposedly open to either option. He signed a three-year contract with Cholet last summer, but he has a clearly-stated NBA out clause with a buyout sum that escalates depending on how high he’s picked. The buyout cannot exceed $750,000.

He is also drawing heavy interest from some of the top teams in Europe — Barcelona, for example — but reportedly has his heart set on playing in the NBA.

Seraphin has until June 14 to decide whether to keep his name in the draft or pull out and become automatically eligible next year. The NBA teams evaluating him will need to decide how much they think he can improve in the next year or two, and whether being patient and drafting him now (in the late teens to early 20s portion of the first round) will get them good value down the road. We’re talking about a player who is still in a very early stage of his development. If he improves as much as expected, he could very well work his way into the lottery next season. On certain NBA teams’ draft boards, he could already be there right now.

The final call will likely be made based on the types of organizations showing interest. His agent Ndiaye has done a good job in recent years of steering clients to places he thinks they can develop -- such as Portland, Dallas and San Antonio -- and he’ll probably take a similar route this time around with Seraphin.

From what Ndiaye told us in Paris this week, he’s feeling increasingly comfortable with the information he’s receiving from NBA teams in terms of keeping Seraphin’s name in the draft. Look for NBA GMs to spend quite a bit of time in the next month or so in France trying to get a better handle on Seraphin’s draft prospects. He holds invites to both the NBA combine and the adidas EuroCamp in Treviso, but appears unlikely to be able to accept either due to the fact that his team will be playing in the playoffs until as late as mid-June.

Although this draft is stacked with big men, Seraphin has characteristics that put him in a rare class for today’s NBA game. The future of the French national team clearly looks extremely bright.


Seraphin's true strength IMO is his defense. His body is thick and he is not moved backwards in the post. He has long arms and quick reflexes and he is a quick leaper who can block shots well.

Right now, I think Kevin Seraphin is in love with trying to score, but the young guy is still very inexperienced. If the Wizards draft Len or Olynyk then Kevin can play much more PF in the future. I think he's still valuable even if others think he's garbage. I don't think he would have been such a shot jacker if his minutes and playing time weren't altered with the roster changes. The good news is I think Seraphin's game can very, very easily be as good as last season and better if he can get secure in a playing role.

I've seen this kind of thing before. Rick Mahorn got called for fouls as a Bruise Brother with Jeff Ruland. He wasn't a key guy in any successful Bullets team but he was a key guy for the Bad Boy Pistons. Years later, Ben Wallace could not get any burn behind Webber and Howard, he even bounced out of Orlando, but he became a beast in Detroit. Seraphin doesn't bang like Mahorn and he's not a hyper athletic rebounder and defender like Ben Wallace; but he's more talented athletically, perhaps, than either of those guys. Seraphin can score and he can defend but he's not mean and he's very, very, very new to the game. With coaching, maturity, and the right mindset he CAN become one hell of a banger. Seraphin can hit that hook shot. He can pass when he chooses to. But he's got a selfish streak and an independent streak. He doesn't work for position or have a thirst for rebounds yet. But maybe with another team he would. That, or if the Wizards hold him for the right coaching/situation we might see him transform.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#130 » by GhostsOfGil » Fri Apr 5, 2013 4:08 pm

Nivek wrote:Here's a look at Seraphin month-by-month this season -- stats are pace-adjusted per 40 minutes:

Code: Select all

KS      GMS     MPG     PPA     USG     ORTG    PTS     REB     AST     TOV     BLK
Nov     13      24.5    29      26.0%   87      18.9    9.0     1.9     3.9     1.5
Dec     14      24.9    19      21.8%   85      16.3    8.6     1.0     2.5     1.5
Jan     16      24.3    23      22.7%   88      17.6    7.1     1.3     2.7     1.1
Feb     10      14.4    -20     18.3%   81      12.9    8.3     0.8     3.0     0.6
Mar     14      17.1    16      20.0%   94      16.7    7.3     1.2     2.9     1.5


He is indeed improved from February, but he's still been awful in March. He's less horrifically terrible than he was in February, so...progress I guess. His FG% is better, but the improvement over his season average amounts to 3 made FGs in the month of March. His FT shooting is better, which would help if he'd get to the line more often. He rebounds (still) like a SF.

Bright side is that he's shooting a little less often than he did earlier in the season.


Kev what were Seraphins PPA numbers last season? Eye test tells me he was above replacement level during the last month of the season.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#131 » by Ruzious » Fri Apr 5, 2013 4:34 pm

CCJ, you've said many times that you see Seraphin as a PF. He has been playing PF when teamed with Okafor, and it's worked terribly. Seraphin himself said he prefers defending centers because he doesn't feel comfortable covering people on the perimeter. Offensively, if he played PF, he'd be shooting more jump shots - which he's extremely inefficient at doing. I want him playing closer to the basket - not farther. Playing close to the basket is how he was effective late last season. This season, he's played more like a PF than a C, and his play has regressed terribly. I want him to STOP playing PF.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#132 » by nate33 » Fri Apr 5, 2013 4:47 pm

Ruzious wrote:CCJ, you've said many times that you see Seraphin as a PF. He has been playing PF when teamed with Okafor, and it's worked terribly. Seraphin himself said he prefers defending centers because he doesn't feel comfortable covering people on the perimeter. Offensively, if he played PF, he'd be shooting more jump shots - which he's extremely inefficient at doing. I want him playing closer to the basket - not farther. Playing close to the basket is how he was effective late last season. This season, he's played more like a PF than a C, and his play has regressed terribly. I want him to STOP playing PF.

Yes, this is a big problem with the team as a whole. We are too big and slow in the front court because we have natural centers playing PF. It makes even less sense on a team with a penetrate-and-kick PG like Wall. Going big should be a situational strategy against certain matchups. It shouldn't be our primary formula.

As proof, I note that our team is awesome when Ariza plays PF. Check out the numbers at 82games.com. We score 118.4 per 48 with Ariza at PF, and give up just 99.9. When Ariza is at SF, we score 89.8 and give up 92.6.

Ariza can't log big minutes there because he'll get beat up. We need to trade one of our 3 centers (Nene, Okafor, Seraphin) for a starting-caliber stretch four.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#133 » by Nivek » Fri Apr 5, 2013 4:50 pm

GhostsOfGil wrote:
Kev what were Seraphins PPA numbers last season? Eye test tells me he was above replacement level during the last month of the season.


Last season, Seraphin's PPA was a 95 -- just a shade below average. After a 20 his rookie season.

His month-by-month splits from last year:

Code: Select all

MONTH   GMS     MPG     PPA
Dec/Jan 15      10.9    60
Feb     13      15.8    40
March   14      22.5    119
April   15      32.7    130
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#134 » by hands11 » Fri Apr 5, 2013 5:13 pm

Kevin may have taken a step back in some areas this year but I think he has improved in others. It was a good learning year for him.

He is a better passer now. He can also handle the double team better. The results are that he is a better team player. You can put him out there with more line ups.

For Kevin, I don't see him as a starting quality center or power forward right now so I don't mind that he got bumped to the bench. The minutes at PF are good for him. He has a lot to work on this summer now.

If Kevin is ever going to be a starter, its still two years away. He needs to grow up more. His issues aren't simply what he does on the court, its how he approaches the game mentally. Its that tough boxing out and rebounding stuff. PF or Center, he needs to continue to improve in that area.

And if the Wizards go with Len and even add someone like Muscala, Kevin better learn to be a better PF, because that will be the slot where he can get minutes on a more regular basis.

The train stops for now one. You gotta get it done when you have the chance. If he wanted to lock in an open spot, he needed to do it when he had the chance. That means he needed to work harder then he did and show improvement faster then he did.

He is still in the running for a future Wizards roster but he has to grab the slot with production and NBA court maturity. If not, someone else will get a chance to show they are a better option.

The young man has some interesting skills. What he needs to do is put it all together and do it consistently.

That means more power. More rebounds. More FTAs. He has to be a player that puts pressure on the other team more then he does. Not just someone who scores and never get fouls. He has played to soft for his size and position.

This year, the Wizards raise the standard for what you have to be to earn a starting spot. You no longer get that just because you have the potential. The standard is now a legit NBA player like Wall and Beal. If Kevin wants it, he has to be better then Nene or Okafor. If he wants to be the back up, he has to be better then Booker. That's on him.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#135 » by tontoz » Fri Apr 5, 2013 5:18 pm

Seraphin is not a 4. He has no perimeter skills at all and is admittedly uncomfortalbe guarding 4s.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#136 » by hands11 » Fri Apr 5, 2013 6:37 pm

tontoz wrote:Seraphin is not a 4. He has no perimeter skills at all and is admittedly uncomfortalbe guarding 4s.


Well on this team he is a part time PF. He has as much perimeter skills as Nene has. At least shooting he does. Nene is clearly a better passer.

Saying he is one of the other is pointless because he is both right now.

And....

http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/nam ... on-wizards

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4289/kevin-seraphin

...Tell ESPN

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gamef ... ame=WASTOR

And tell us who the center is in this line up....

Wall, Webster, Trevor A ... then Okafor and Kevin S.... You telling me Okafor is the PF and Kevin is the center ?

There are also line ups he is at center.

AJ, Martin, Trevor A, Booker, Kevin S

What's less easy to tell is where he is playing with this line up.

Wall, Temple, Trevor A, Kevin S and Nene
and what about then Ves and Kevin play together ?

Like I said. If he can't find some minutes at PF then he isn't likely sticking around. He has to be able to play both positions to stick here. Maybe in a few years he can lock in at just one position. But that is up to him to earn.

And if we draft a center like Len, its not getting easier for him to get center minutes, its getting harder.

Okafor and likely our next draft pick will be the centers.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#137 » by tontoz » Fri Apr 5, 2013 6:53 pm

^^ are you really trying to use ESPN listings as your argument? Wow. ESPN has Vesley listed as a 3.

Seraphin rarely scores off the dribble. Nene does it all the time yet you think Seraphin has as much perimeter skill as Nene?
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#138 » by hands11 » Fri Apr 5, 2013 7:09 pm

^^^

Read everything and comprehend my friend . You can't just pick one thing and try to frame that to make it my entire point. Doesn't work that way.

So since ESPN has Ves as a SF ( which is how he arrived yet never plays there this year ) .. that means everyone they have listed is wrong ? Good logic. :roll:

They don't list players are both. They pick a position.

He is a combo. That is the fact. He plays both. Randy uses him as both.

They could list him as PF or a C. Both would work because he plays both. And playing both Power Forward and Center includes the words Power Forward.

Now you might not think he is a good Power Forward but he is one and actually plays the position in real live 2012/2013 in games.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#139 » by tontoz » Fri Apr 5, 2013 7:56 pm

hands11 wrote:^^^

Read everything and comprehend my friend . You can't just pick one thing and try to frame that to make it my entire point. Doesn't work that way.

So since ESPN has Ves as a SF ( which is how he arrived yet never plays there this year ) .. that means everyone they have listed is wrong ? Good logic. :roll:


.



Speaking of reading comprehension where did i say all ESPN listings are wrong?

I am saying is that they are basically irrelevant. Josh Smith has been the starting 4 for the Hawks almost all the time since 2007 yet they have him listed as a 3.

When Seraphin has spent time as a 4 he has been playing out of position, and doing a poor job of it. Playing Seraphin at the 4 is like playing Booker or Vesely at the 3.
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Re: Kevin Seraphin Thread - Part II 

Post#140 » by nate33 » Fri Apr 5, 2013 8:07 pm

tontoz wrote:^^ are you really trying to use ESPN listings as your argument? Wow. ESPN has Vesley listed as a 3.

Seraphin rarely scores off the dribble. Nene does it all the time yet you think Seraphin has as much perimeter skill as Nene?

Shhhh!

Don't even go there. The last thing we need is CCJ screaming about how Vesely should be playing SF.

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