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Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden

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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#196 » by GhostsOfGil » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:44 pm

barelyawake wrote:Harden is probably my favorite nba player currently. Harden for Beal was my ideal trade. That said, no way I give Harden a fifth year and cement him as our cornerstone. That means that any other star, including re-signing Wall, is off the table. Now, if Harden was willing to sign for four, then it's awful GMing. Since he isn't, I'm unsure what we are arguing about.

Wall, Beal, Nene, Serphin, Top three pick.

That's better than all the line-ups you wanted. And we will have expiring contracts to trade along with young players, after we are playoff bound (and they have cred). Tanking this year is a godsend and going to create probably the best wizards team we have ever seen. I have zero idea why people are jumping off right when we are poised to have a watchable team.


Because we were poised to have a watchable team last year. And the year before that. Instead in succession, Ernie traded the 5th pick, drafted Jan Velsey and crippled our cap space with role players.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#197 » by barelyawake » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:20 pm

No, we were never poised to have a great team. We needed to tank multiple years to get there. Tanking was the right choice. And our cap space was spent on expiring contracts. Vesley was a bad pick. Happens. I remember just me and Dat screaming about trading the fifth pick at the time. Most here were onboard with that idea, and wanted Beal.

But, obviously we have been tanking. And obviously, after losing our two best players, management added on another year of tanking. Am I saying EG is a good GM? No, but I don't understand the bitching while we are adding top picks (like we needed to do). We needed to lose... a lot. Stars win championships. We are now poised to draft and trade for them. Relax. Next year will be good, if Wall stays healthy.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#198 » by llcc25 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:38 pm

barelyawake wrote:No, we were never poised to have a great team. We needed to tank multiple years to get there. Tanking was the right choice. And our cap space was spent on expiring contracts. Vesley was a bad pick. Happens. I remember just me and Dat screaming about trading the fifth pick at the time. Most here were onboard with that idea, and wanted Beal.

But, obviously we have been tanking. And obviously, after losing our two best players, management added on another year of tanking. Am I saying EG is a good GM? No, but I don't understand the bitching while we are adding top picks (like we needed to do). We needed to lose... a lot. Stars win championships. We are now poised to draft and trade for them. Relax. Next year will be good, if Wall stays healthy.
barelyawake wrote:No, we were never poised to have a great team. We needed to tank multiple years to get there. Tanking was the right choice. And our cap space was spent on expiring contracts. Vesley was a bad pick. Happens. I remember just me and Dat screaming about trading the fifth pick at the time. Most here were onboard with that idea, and wanted Beal.

But, obviously we have been tanking. And obviously, after losing our two best players, management added on another year of tanking. Am I saying EG is a good GM? No, but I don't understand the bitching while we are adding top picks (like we needed to do). We needed to lose... a lot. Stars win championships. We are now poised to draft and trade for them. Relax. Next year will be good, if Wall stays healthy.
barelyawake wrote:No, we were never poised to have a great team. We needed to tank multiple years to get there. Tanking was the right choice. And our cap space was spent on expiring contracts. Vesley was a bad pick. Happens. I remember just me and Dat screaming about trading the fifth pick at the time. Most here were onboard with that idea, and wanted Beal.

But, obviously we have been tanking. And obviously, after losing our two best players, management added on another year of tanking. Am I saying EG is a good GM? No, but I don't understand the bitching while we are adding top picks (like we needed to do). We needed to lose... a lot. Stars win championships. We are now poised to draft and trade for them. Relax. Next year will be good, if Wall stays healthy.


Dude, I'm all for tanking and rebuilding with high draft picks but that strategy is worthless if the guy in charge of making those picks is choosing the Veseley's of this world over guys like Leonard and Thompson. Also, if we'er gonna keep on making trades where we get hosed in using valuable cap space to add marginal talent, we will never see the daylight of a winning team. Past performance if best indicator of future results and as long as EG is in charge, we are doomed - its as simple as that...
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#199 » by TGW » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:39 pm

barelyawake wrote:No, we were never poised to have a great team. We needed to tank multiple years to get there. Tanking was the right choice. And our cap space was spent on expiring contracts. Vesley was a bad pick. Happens. I remember just me and Dat screaming about trading the fifth pick at the time. Most here were onboard with that idea, and wanted Beal.

But, obviously we have been tanking. And obviously, after losing our two best players, management added on another year of tanking. Am I saying EG is a good GM? No, but I don't understand the bitching while we are adding top picks (like we needed to do). We needed to lose... a lot. Stars win championships. We are now poised to draft and trade for them. Relax. Next year will be good, if Wall stays healthy.


Nope...don't agree at all. Obvious tanking? Then why trade for Ariza and Okafor? I'm not buying it at all.

These moves scream of lack of planning.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#200 » by AFM » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:45 pm

Ted is such a goober.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#201 » by barelyawake » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:49 pm

TGW, if you reread my post, you will find what I said (not what you interpreted it as). I said, AFTER losing our two best players...

Should we change GMs after we make the playoffs? I'm all for it. But, try hiring a GM and then telling him your goal is to tank. Never happen because the GM understands it means purposefully ruining his own reputation. This, I believe, is why EG has not been fired -- because he was willing to do just that.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#202 » by montestewart » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:09 pm

barelyawake wrote:I remember just me and Dat screaming about trading the fifth pick at the time. Most here were onboard with that idea, and wanted Beal.

You lost me at this confusing sentence, and if you mean the 5th pick and trash for Miller/Foye, you really lost me, since your memory is failing you. Plenty of people hated that trade, and even people (like myself) who could see it working out in a "win now" way conditioned acceptance on further moves for perimeter defenders and interior toughness. Some people were OK with the move, but few really loved it, and many hated it from the moment it was announced. I'm sure CCJ, nate33, and others are on that list.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#203 » by Knighthonor » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:34 pm

TGW wrote:
barelyawake wrote:No, we were never poised to have a great team. We needed to tank multiple years to get there. Tanking was the right choice. And our cap space was spent on expiring contracts. Vesley was a bad pick. Happens. I remember just me and Dat screaming about trading the fifth pick at the time. Most here were onboard with that idea, and wanted Beal.

But, obviously we have been tanking. And obviously, after losing our two best players, management added on another year of tanking. Am I saying EG is a good GM? No, but I don't understand the bitching while we are adding top picks (like we needed to do). We needed to lose... a lot. Stars win championships. We are now poised to draft and trade for them. Relax. Next year will be good, if Wall stays healthy.


Nope...don't agree at all. Obvious tanking? Then why trade for Ariza and Okafor? I'm not buying it at all.

These moves scream of lack of planning.

honestly, I thought it was a conspiracy with TED and Stern, that the Wizards would help free up NO cap space, in return get dibs on this season's #1 draft lotto pick.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#204 » by barelyawake » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:36 pm

Absolutely not. I remember distinctly that most people on this board wanted Miller here (pre-trade). And after the trade, Dat and I were arguing with Nate and others that they got their wish. Pull up the old threads. This board, as a whole, endorsed that trade. Absolutely no doubt. I even remember Doc writing a happy piece about how it will probably work out. (Though you are right that my grammar sucked on that last post). Anyway, it's Friday I'm out.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#205 » by sashae » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:26 am

Since we love reliving the past, the original Miller/Foye/5th trade thread. Behold the vitriol and invective.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#206 » by montestewart » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:38 am

barelyawake wrote:Absolutely not. I remember distinctly that most people on this board wanted Miller here (pre-trade). And after the trade, Dat and I were arguing with Nate and others that they got their wish. Pull up the old threads. This board, as a whole, endorsed that trade. Absolutely no doubt. I even remember Doc writing a happy piece about how it will probably work out. (Though you are right that my grammar sucked on that last post). Anyway, it's Friday I'm out.

Here's nate33's 1st comment on the trade in the "Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota" thread

nate33 wrote:I don't like this trade at all. I was never a big fan of Foye and I don't think he's any better than Nick Young. I like Miller, but not for the #5 pick.

And for the life of me, I don't understand why we didn't give them Stevenson instead of Songaila. We now have Arenas, Foye, Young, Stevenson, James and Crittenton in the backcourt, plus Miller, DMac and Butler who can also spend some time there. That's a huge log jam. Meanwhile, we only have 4 credible big men: Jamison, Haywood, Blatche and McGee - and McGee hasn't shown that he's a reliable player yet.

I hope another trade is in the works.


Here's the thread itself. viewtopic.php?f=35&t=916746
Read the 1st page. Lots of discontent and confusion, and plenty of dissent in subsequent pages, yet somehow you come in on page 2 as if you're the only one that objects to the trade. You can recall it anyway you want, but don't go into court with that evidence. Didn't we just go through this revisionist history with the Okariza trade?
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#207 » by pineappleheadindc » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:27 am

Holy cow.

Zonker, was that you as the first commenter to Ted's blogpost about turned-down trade?

If so, I approve.

:nod:

Edited to add: I hope that if board members here post a comment to Ted's blogpost, that they post them here. (In case the moderators at Ted's Take throw the said comments into the trash).

Here's mine, submitted but (as I type this) unpublished awaiting moderator action.

Mr. Leonsis: I believe you to be a well-intentioned man and owner. I think you are not served by your current GM and your admirable loyalty to him (and his terrible record in terms of acquiring personnel - particularly via drafting) is ultimately wearing upon your credibility. I could not, in my line of work, have a record akin to an NBA GM drafting only one all-star in all of Mr. Grunfeld's years as GM and still hold a job.

His- and I hope it was Mr. Grunfeld's alone to you - recommendation to not make a trade for an established star is probably the final straw for me. It's not that I'm angry any more at the long legacy of losing and organizational incompetence. I'm not angry at all. I'm now totally indifferent to the Wizards. I no longer care. I imagine that, as an owner, you'd probably be okay with me being angry (but invested). No sir. Not any more.

Once a franchise loses it's fan base, it's probably difficult to get it back. People like me will move on. Get older. Get married and have kids. Become Nats fans. Change our lifestyles and interests so that the Wizards are irrelevant to our daily experience.

I had hoped that you'd be a transformational owner. And I know you've worked hard around the edges -- the paint schemes, new uniforms, food options, etc. But,really, the core thing about the Wizards -- its squad -- has remained substandard. In short, you've change the packaging but the product is sitll bad. And I note many other franchises suffer injury losses to multiple players and still have more than 3 wins on its sheet.

Going back to the days of Muresan. To relative unknowns like Anthony Goldwire, Chris Whitney, Loy Vaught. To Yi Jianlian, Peter John Ramos, and Mike Smith. I've cheered for these guys because I was a fan. Loyalty came with the self-chosen job description. But I conclude now that the target of my affection and attention doesn't love me back. Is uninterested in being loyal enough to fans to put a quality product on the court, even at the expense of corporate "uncomfortability", if that's a word. And so, given the unsatisfactory one-way relationship between me, the fan, and you, the franchise -- I walk away knowing that there are other things to do, other ways to spend my money, and other interests which are more fulfilling.

Good luck.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#208 » by GhostsOfGil » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:34 pm

It might have been mine but it looks like it was deleted. For the author I always put RealGM.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#209 » by Zonkerbl » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:53 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:Holy cow.

Zonker, was that you as the first commenter to Ted's blogpost about turned-down trade?

If so, I approve.

:nod:

Edited to add: I hope that if board members here post a comment to Ted's blogpost, that they post them here. (In case the moderators at Ted's Take throw the said comments into the trash).

Here's mine, submitted but (as I type this) unpublished awaiting moderator action.

Mr. Leonsis: I believe you to be a well-intentioned man and owner. I think you are not served by your current GM and your admirable loyalty to him (and his terrible record in terms of acquiring personnel - particularly via drafting) is ultimately wearing upon your credibility. I could not, in my line of work, have a record akin to an NBA GM drafting only one all-star in all of Mr. Grunfeld's years as GM and still hold a job.

His- and I hope it was Mr. Grunfeld's alone to you - recommendation to not make a trade for an established star is probably the final straw for me. It's not that I'm angry any more at the long legacy of losing and organizational incompetence. I'm not angry at all. I'm now totally indifferent to the Wizards. I no longer care. I imagine that, as an owner, you'd probably be okay with me being angry (but invested). No sir. Not any more.

Once a franchise loses it's fan base, it's probably difficult to get it back. People like me will move on. Get older. Get married and have kids. Become Nats fans. Change our lifestyles and interests so that the Wizards are irrelevant to our daily experience.

I had hoped that you'd be a transformational owner. And I know you've worked hard around the edges -- the paint schemes, new uniforms, food options, etc. But,really, the core thing about the Wizards -- its squad -- has remained substandard. In short, you've change the packaging but the product is sitll bad. And I note many other franchises suffer injury losses to multiple players and still have more than 3 wins on its sheet.

Going back to the days of Muresan. To relative unknowns like Anthony Goldwire, Chris Whitney, Loy Vaught. To Yi Jianlian, Peter John Ramos, and Mike Smith. I've cheered for these guys because I was a fan. Loyalty came with the self-chosen job description. But I conclude now that the target of my affection and attention doesn't love me back. Is uninterested in being loyal enough to fans to put a quality product on the court, even at the expense of corporate "uncomfortability", if that's a word. And so, given the unsatisfactory one-way relationship between me, the fan, and you, the franchise -- I walk away knowing that there are other things to do, other ways to spend my money, and other interests which are more fulfilling.

Good luck.


Mine is the "OMG SO MANY PIXELS" one.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#210 » by Nivek » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:48 pm

barelyawake wrote:Harden is probably my favorite nba player currently. Harden for Beal was my ideal trade. That said, no way I give Harden a fifth year and cement him as our cornerstone. That means that any other star, including re-signing Wall, is off the table. Now, if Harden was willing to sign for four, then it's awful GMing. Since he isn't, I'm unsure what we are arguing about.


Minor point, but that's not what a 5-year deal for Harden would means. All it would mean is the Wizards could not offer a 5th year. Not necessarily a deal breaker, especially with some free agents preferring shorter deals so they can get to higher max salary at earliest possible time.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#211 » by MikeTheKid » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:55 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
pineappleheadindc wrote:Holy cow.

Zonker, was that you as the first commenter to Ted's blogpost about turned-down trade?

If so, I approve.

:nod:

Edited to add: I hope that if board members here post a comment to Ted's blogpost, that they post them here. (In case the moderators at Ted's Take throw the said comments into the trash).

Here's mine, submitted but (as I type this) unpublished awaiting moderator action.

Mr. Leonsis: I believe you to be a well-intentioned man and owner. I think you are not served by your current GM and your admirable loyalty to him (and his terrible record in terms of acquiring personnel - particularly via drafting) is ultimately wearing upon your credibility. I could not, in my line of work, have a record akin to an NBA GM drafting only one all-star in all of Mr. Grunfeld's years as GM and still hold a job.

His- and I hope it was Mr. Grunfeld's alone to you - recommendation to not make a trade for an established star is probably the final straw for me. It's not that I'm angry any more at the long legacy of losing and organizational incompetence. I'm not angry at all. I'm now totally indifferent to the Wizards. I no longer care. I imagine that, as an owner, you'd probably be okay with me being angry (but invested). No sir. Not any more.

Once a franchise loses it's fan base, it's probably difficult to get it back. People like me will move on. Get older. Get married and have kids. Become Nats fans. Change our lifestyles and interests so that the Wizards are irrelevant to our daily experience.

I had hoped that you'd be a transformational owner. And I know you've worked hard around the edges -- the paint schemes, new uniforms, food options, etc. But,really, the core thing about the Wizards -- its squad -- has remained substandard. In short, you've change the packaging but the product is sitll bad. And I note many other franchises suffer injury losses to multiple players and still have more than 3 wins on its sheet.

Going back to the days of Muresan. To relative unknowns like Anthony Goldwire, Chris Whitney, Loy Vaught. To Yi Jianlian, Peter John Ramos, and Mike Smith. I've cheered for these guys because I was a fan. Loyalty came with the self-chosen job description. But I conclude now that the target of my affection and attention doesn't love me back. Is uninterested in being loyal enough to fans to put a quality product on the court, even at the expense of corporate "uncomfortability", if that's a word. And so, given the unsatisfactory one-way relationship between me, the fan, and you, the franchise -- I walk away knowing that there are other things to do, other ways to spend my money, and other interests which are more fulfilling.

Good luck.


Mine is the "OMG SO MANY PIXELS" one.


I saw that on and LOL'd hard. Mine got deleted and I forgot to copy it
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#212 » by barelyawake » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:22 pm

Lol you actually pulled up the old thread? I thought that damn function was broken. Ok, well there are a few more against than I remembered. However, I will explain that the reason my first post in that thread was "you got what you wanted" was because of numerous other threads leading to that point in which Miller was touted as the guy we absolutely must get -- which lead to many arguments. Also, in those threads, trading the pick was also highly backed as the thing we ought to do. So, by the time the actual trade was announced, the issue had been debated for a good month. And the trade was loved on radio by the causal fan...

That said, Ill concede the point as incidental. My point was you can't hire a GM just to tank. And we need a superstar, thus needed to tank. It's a good thing we lost this year.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#213 » by queridiculo » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:40 pm

This team has effectively tanked going on 4 years now, so where is our superstar?

The teams that win in this league make a concerted effort to add talent, not lose games and hope star players fall from the sky.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#214 » by barelyawake » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:15 pm

We have had three years of top picks. With one, we got John Wall. With another, we got hosed by the lottery and got the worst pick we could possibly get. This year, we will have another top pick. I understand you blame our entire history on our current owner. But, that is in no way fair. Four years of top picks is not a long rebuild. And it is the right way. We have tanked. We should have tanked. You shouldn't be upset by it. And we will have the foundations of the best team dc has seen in decades, NEXT YEAR. If we don't, then start complaining.
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Re: Michael Lee: Wizards Brass turned down Harden 

Post#215 » by TGW » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:54 am

barelyawake wrote:We have had three years of top picks. With one, we got John Wall. With another, we got hosed by the lottery and got the worst pick we could possibly get. This year, we will have another top pick. I understand you blame our entire history on our current owner. But, that is in no way fair. Four years of top picks is not a long rebuild. And it is the right way. We have tanked. We should have tanked. You shouldn't be upset by it. And we will have the foundations of the best team dc has seen in decades, NEXT YEAR. If we don't, then start complaining.


No one is mad about the tanking...people are mad because the tanking was done the wrong way. 4 years of first round draft picks, and not one is even remotely close to being a superstar. And saying the foundation of this team will be the best in decades is a reach of ridiculous proportions. You have no idea who grunfeld is going to draft, and his track record on draft picks is very bad. I don't see how you're placing so much faith on a front office that has been a failure for its entire tenure.
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