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Induveca wrote:I'd happily ship out Seraphin and Vesely at this point to take a chance on Williams.

Think they've all seen their ceilings already in current situations. Williams has seen the least floor time, and still has the most potential in my estimation......good deal for us.

Kevin Seraphin has 29 career starts, only played 20 minutes in a game 7 times prior to March 2012, and only has 26 career games where he's played 30 minutes. Btw, he also started playing ball in 2004. How in the world has he hit his ceiling?

jivelikenice wrote:

GhostsOfGil wrote:

nate33 wrote:What about a much simpler version of the trade:

WAS sends: Seraphin + Vesely
WAS receives: D.Williams

ORL sends: Redick
ORL receives: Seraphin + Vesely

MIN sends: D.Williams
MIN receives: Redick

We could throw in an Ariza for Roy swap if Minnesota wants Ariza.

Isn't JJ an expiring? Not sure MIN goes for this. ORL and WAS say yes yes yes.

Why does Wash say yes yes yes? Again, what has Derrick Williams proven except for being a high pick in a bad draft. If you knew nothing about who was drafted where or their college careers and just ranked the three players (Williams, Vesely, Seraphin) based on what we've seen in the NBA; its 1. Seraphin, 2. Williams, 3. Vesely

I dunno about that. Looking at the numbers this year, Williams and Seraphin are pretty much the same in rebounds, assists and steals. Seraphin has the edge in blocks. Williams scores 2 more points per 36 with a slightly higher TS% and ORtg. He gets to the line 5 times per 36 minutes compared to Seraphin's 1.5 FTAs. Williams is 2 years younger with one less year of NBA experience, and more of his minutes are against starters thanks to the Love injuries.

Also, I think we are covered at center with Okafor and Nene. Our need is for a PF who can score, and hopefully with some perimeter range to stretch the floor. Williams is only a 29% shooter from 3-point range but has good shooting form.

My one caveat is that Seraphin played better last year. Perhaps part of the reason for Seraphin's regression is that he belongs at C rather than PF. If we traded Okafor for a PF and moved Seraphin to C full time, Seraphin might improve.

jivelikenice wrote:Why does Wash say yes yes yes? Again, what has Derrick Williams proven except for being a high pick in a bad draft. If you knew nothing about who was drafted where or their college careers and just ranked the three players (Williams, Vesely, Seraphin) based on what we've seen in the NBA; its 1. Seraphin, 2. Williams, 3. Vesely

I'm not as high on Seraphin as you are. His defense and inability to draw contact makes his ceiling pretty clear at this point. Just my opinion though.

GhostsOfGil wrote:

jivelikenice wrote:Why does Wash say yes yes yes? Again, what has Derrick Williams proven except for being a high pick in a bad draft. If you knew nothing about who was drafted where or their college careers and just ranked the three players (Williams, Vesely, Seraphin) based on what we've seen in the NBA; its 1. Seraphin, 2. Williams, 3. Vesely

I'm not as high on Seraphin as you are. His defense and inability to draw contact makes his ceiling pretty clear at this point. Just my opinion though.

I'm not saying he's a star, but I just disagree with the thought that he's at his ceiling based on his late start to ball and his lack of playing experience (he only really started getting quality pt the last month and a half of last season). He also missed a good portion of TC with a calf injury. His development has gone a little sideways, but there's room for growth if he gets his mindset right and gets the right coaching. I also think we're valuing D Williams based on his draft position versus actual production...He wasn't inexperienced coming out and for Minnesota to shop him so heavily just 1 1/2 yrs after drafting him #2 is a big red flag.

jivelikenice wrote:Kevin Seraphin has 29 career starts, only played 20 minutes in a game 7 times prior to March 2012, and only has 26 career games where he's played 30 minutes. Btw, he also started playing ball in 2004. How in the world has he hit his ceiling?

I'd be curious how that compares to Derrick Williams?

I think I agree with Nate on that he might be out of position right now, He's a slightly short bruising center. He also sets picks as bad as McGee did, but I think that might be cause he always gets called for moving screens, so maybe it isn't that he isn't willing to do the "right things" its just he doesn't know how yet, which at least, is amendable. Isn't Nene's natural position a 4 anyways?

jivelikenice wrote:I also think we're valuing D Williams based on his draft position versus actual production...He wasn't inexperienced coming out and for Minnesota to shop him so heavily just 1 1/2 yrs after drafting him #2 is a big red flag.

Im not valuing D Will on his draft position but rather his potential. His per 36 minute stats this year are all up and he's improved his shooting drastically (last year his eFG% on jumpers was .353 this year it's .486).

While I agree with some of things you wrote, I just don't see that level of potential in Seraphin, whether he's hit his ceiling or not.

Would you guys do Brandon Bass for Ariza?

This one works on trade checker:

Crawford, Seraphin, and Vesely for Anderson. We get a a stretch 4 that can shoot that complements Wall and Beal and a lack of a shooting at SF.

Wall/Price
Beal/Webster
Ariza/Singleton
Anderson/Booker
Nene/Okafor

add BPA in upcoming draft and we look solid going into next year...

Slartibartfast wrote:Would you guys do Brandon Bass for Ariza?

I might do it for the Brandon Bass from last year. That guy was solid. The guy from this year doesn't look so good. Just 10 points and 7 boards per 36 minutes with a TS% of .498. Kevin Seraphin scores more points and grabs more boards in the same amount of time. And his shooting percentages on jumpers from 16-23 feet are actually better than Bass'.

I'd rather keep Ariza and go shopping for a new free agent when his contract expires in 2014.

llcc25 wrote:This one works on trade checker:

Crawford, Seraphin, and Vesely for Anderson. We get a a stretch 4 that can shoot that complements Wall and Beal and a lack of a shooting at SF.

Wall/Price
Beal/Webster
Ariza/Singleton
Anderson/Booker
Nene/Okafor

add BPA in upcoming draft and we look solid going into next year...

Interesting.

My first thought is to reject it because I don't want to give up so much for a stretch 4 being paid $9M a year. But then I stopped to think that I was just advocating giving up that much for a not-as-good stretch 4 (D.Williams), so maybe it makes some sense.

It's so tough when we're talking about Seraphin. Is he a hopeless tease of a player with too much tunnel vision and an inability to improve his bball IQ? Or is he a surprisingly skilled two-way player who can defend the post, block shots, nail jumpers with excellent accuracy, and score on the block, who only lacks the experience to react better to double teams?

That Crawford, Seraphin and Vesely for Anderson deal is an absolute no-brainer. You make that trade 100 times out of a 100. Anderson is good. Really good. Highly productive, unique, and young.

I can't think of a good reason for New Orleans to make that trade, though.

nate33 wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:Would you guys do Brandon Bass for Ariza?

I might do it for the Brandon Bass from last year. That guy was solid. The guy from this year doesn't look so good. Just 10 points and 7 boards per 36 minutes with a TS% of .498. Kevin Seraphin scores more points and grabs more boards in the same amount of time. And his shooting percentages on jumpers from 16-23 feet are actually better than Bass'.

I'd rather keep Ariza and go shopping for a new free agent when his contract expires in 2014.

Yeah, Bass has been pretty bad this year, but historically, he's been quite a bit better. Thanks for the feedback.

Nivek wrote:That Crawford, Seraphin and Vesely for Anderson deal is an absolute no-brainer. You make that trade 100 times out of a 100. Anderson is good. Really good. Highly productive, unique, and young.

I can't think of a good reason for New Orleans to make that trade, though.

According to reports, NO prefers Davis playing PF especially after bringing in Robin Lopez at Center. so that kind of leaves Anderson as odd man out in rotation and that would be the reason they would trade him.

llcc25 wrote:

Nivek wrote:That Crawford, Seraphin and Vesely for Anderson deal is an absolute no-brainer. You make that trade 100 times out of a 100. Anderson is good. Really good. Highly productive, unique, and young.

I can't think of a good reason for New Orleans to make that trade, though.

According to reports, NO prefers Davis playing PF especially after bringing in Robin Lopez at Center. so that kind of leaves Anderson as odd man out in rotation and that would be the reason they would trade him.

With the way big man playing time is typically divvied up, they'd be smart to keep all 3. There'd be room for each of them to play 32 mpg. If I were running New Orleans, I wouldn't trade any of them.

Nivek wrote:That Crawford, Seraphin and Vesely for Anderson deal is an absolute no-brainer. You make that trade 100 times out of a 100. Anderson is good. Really good. Highly productive, unique, and young.

I can't think of a good reason for New Orleans to make that trade, though.

Ya I'd be all over this. It's sad because we could have just signed Anderson in the offseason...

Seraphin such an odd case. He does difficult things well but easy things horribly.

A poster on the General Board posted some interesting screen caps of a frustrated Chris Bosh looking like he is sick of being the 3rd fiddle behind Lebron and Wade. Just for kicks, this trade might actually make some sense for all parties:

Miami trades: Bosh
Washington trades: Nene + Ariza + 1st round pick (top 10 prot. in 2013, top 3 prot. thereafter)

Miami gets a true center and a player who fits in better as a 3rd option and doesn't need so many touches. They also save about $15M in luxtax payments in 2015. They could save another $15M or so if they manage to flip Ariza for an expiring contract with a 3rd party involved.

Washington gets probably the best possible fit at PF among any player in the league. Bosh is a first option scorer who has the perimeter game to spread the floor for Wall or to run the pick and roll. Our lineup next year would be:

PG Wall
SG Beal/Crawford
SF Webster
PF Bosh/Booker
C Okafor/Seraphin

Add in a 2013 top 5 pick, an MLE-caliber free agent, and a few vet minimum guys and that's a real good team for a while.

^ Not bad nate! I like this deal a lot. Does Miami bite? Is a top 10 protected first round pick enough?

I haven't looked but isn't Bosh their best rebounder? That is their big weakness and Nene won't help.