ImageImageImageImageImage

Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST

Moderators: WizStorm, miller31time, pineappleheadindc, LyricalRico, nate33

Ruzious
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 27,585
And1: 835
Joined: Jul 17, 2001
     

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#301 » by Ruzious » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:18 pm

24 hour rule - ya gotta stay negative 24 hours after a loss. Embrace the slow burn. Then you can put on the rose colored glasses.
"Morey plays three dimensional chess. EFG plays tic-tac-toe and can't seem to get the hang of it."
- Benjamin
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 14,182
And1: 881
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#302 » by tontoz » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:18 pm

The Cavs and Hornets both won last night. The tank is rolling again.
Upper Decker
Rookie
Posts: 1,104
And1: 110
Joined: Apr 05, 2012

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#303 » by Upper Decker » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:23 pm

Maybe I'm missing something but KS seems to get all the blame, but honestly the game was lost during the middle of the fourth quarter when Jan and Trevor were on the court together. Jan's inability to make any contribution offensively is mind-blowing. How can an NBA player, a high lotto-pick, be so completey useless offensively? The Kings used his man as a free safety to clog all driving lanes, disrupt passing lanes, and run shooters off the line. The offense shut down. This loss is on the following, in order:
1. The boy named Jan
2. Randy Whittman for playing the boy named Jan
3. Seraphin
4. Wall's busted jumper
User avatar
closg00
RealGM
Posts: 15,957
And1: 364
Joined: Nov 21, 2004

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#304 » by closg00 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:37 pm

Ruzious wrote:24 hour rule - ya gotta stay negative 24 hours after a loss. Embrace the slow burn. Then you can put on the rose colored glasses.


Exactly, ever listen to a sports how after X team has lost? It's just the frustration of not coming away with the W.
Guys on a message board could do a better job managing the Wizards than Ernie Grunfeld.
User avatar
closg00
RealGM
Posts: 15,957
And1: 364
Joined: Nov 21, 2004

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#305 » by closg00 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:40 pm

Upper Decker wrote:Maybe I'm missing something but KS seems to get all the blame, but honestly the game was lost during the middle of the fourth quarter when Jan and Trevor were on the court together. Jan's inability to make any contribution offensively is mind-blowing. How can an NBA player, a high lotto-pick, be so completey useless offensively? The Kings used his man as a free safety to clog all driving lanes, disrupt passing lanes, and run shooters off the line. The offense shut down. This loss is on the following, in order:
1. The boy named Jan
2. Randy Whittman for playing the boy named Jan
3. Seraphin
4. Wall's busted jumper


Excellent point about Jan, I have been waiting for other teams to do exactly what SAC did, they were ready when Jan entered the game. Good coaching on their part.
Guys on a message board could do a better job managing the Wizards than Ernie Grunfeld.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 35,127
And1: 1,334
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Ft. Washington, MD/Mililani, HI

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#306 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:14 pm

nate33 wrote:
AFM wrote:Too much negativity here. Think of it this way. We won 3, lost 1. That's a .75 record. If we can keep that up we'll make the playoffs.

Thank you.

Also, I don't get all the hate on Seraphin. Seraphin was great in the first half while playing alongside 3 players who were no threat whatsoever to score: Vesely, Ariza and Temple.

I'll have to rewatch the game to be sure, but I thought all 3 shots that Seraphin missed down the stretch were reasonably good shots. The problem wasn't him shooting, it was that the offense got the ball to him rather than Nene. Nene is the guy we want making decisions. Seraphin should be there just as a kick-out option.

If anybody was at fault, it was Wittman for leaving Okafor on the bench so long. Okafor played great D on Cousins all night.


Seraphin plays well with Vesely.

If Seraphin shoots early in a possession and doesn't give Nene a touch he probably needs to sit when this happens. The coach has to make sure Nene's the primary option on offense. Randy has to play it out with Okafor at times.
The Wizards Need 1: KD2DC, DMC2DC, KLOVE2DC, or LMA2DC
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 35,127
And1: 1,334
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Ft. Washington, MD/Mililani, HI

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#307 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:18 pm

closg00 wrote:
Upper Decker wrote:Maybe I'm missing something but KS seems to get all the blame, but honestly the game was lost during the middle of the fourth quarter when Jan and Trevor were on the court together. Jan's inability to make any contribution offensively is mind-blowing. How can an NBA player, a high lotto-pick, be so completey useless offensively? The Kings used his man as a free safety to clog all driving lanes, disrupt passing lanes, and run shooters off the line. The offense shut down. This loss is on the following, in order:
1. The boy named Jan
2. Randy Whittman for playing the boy named Jan
3. Seraphin
4. Wall's busted jumper


Excellent point about Jan, I have been waiting for other teams to do exactly what SAC did, they were ready when Jan entered the game. Good coaching on their part.


The Wizards' adjustment might be to try and make teams respect Jan's non-existant perimeter game. No, Vesely doesn't make perimeter shots; but, yes, he needs to take them when opponents play off Vesely to run at shooters.

Jan and John Wall need to practice shooting all the time.
The Wizards Need 1: KD2DC, DMC2DC, KLOVE2DC, or LMA2DC
User avatar
TGW
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,507
And1: 954
Joined: Oct 22, 2010

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#308 » by TGW » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:22 pm

An average game from Cousins, CCJ? He had 6 turnovers, and Nene was making him look foolish at times.

His best offensive move is putting his head down and hoping you get called for a block--it's an ugly go-to move that works well on some nights, but is disastrous most nights. Quite frankly, I don't know why they put Seraphin on him, because Nene was doing just fine moving his feet and causing the charge. Brain fart by our coaching staff. Before Seraphin gave up the two bunnies in the paint, Cousins numbers were bad (he would have had as many turnovers as field goals). Anyway, I'm not going to dwell on it...i'd definitely rather have Wall, and I have zero interest in bringing that cancer here.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 12,633
And1: 981
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#309 » by fishercob » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:23 pm

Sadly prescient tweet by BUlletsForever last night:

Bullets Forever ‏@BulletsForever
Not all that convinced that Kevin Seraphin hitting all these mid-range jumpers is a good thing long term, but I'll take it for now.


Those "bad makes" led to KS taking and missing some bad shots in crunch time. Gotta be smarter than that!
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
User avatar
DCZards
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,898
And1: 361
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Location: The Streets of DC

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#310 » by DCZards » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:54 pm

Can't blame the loss totally on Seraphin, but he does need to learn how to kick the ball out sometimes rather than shoot EVERY time he gets it. There were at least two instances late in the game where Kevin was well defended and Beal (who just happened to be the hottest shooter in the joint) was standing on the same side of the court wide open. Kevin never even looked in Beal's direction. Seraphin put his head down and just started pounding the ball to try to get in a position to shoot. He's got to be a LOT smarter than that.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 956
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#311 » by Nivek » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:02 pm

Cousins had a 2-3 minute stretch in the 1st half where he was just killing the Kings. Kept jacking up 18 footers that had not a prayer of going in. That guy has MONSTER talent, but he could be sooooooo much better if he'd stop taking those jack-assed shots and do a better job of valuing possessions.

fish -- BulletsForever's tweet and your comment reminds me of something Dean Oliver told me. Namely that when developing young players you want to emphasize and evaluate the process over the outcome. If you believe the player is talented (like, say, Beal), you don't worry much about him missing 3pt shots at first -- you want him focusing on making the right decisions about when to shoot. Over time, his talent is such that IF he's making the right decisions, the right results will come.

With Seraphin, they have a problem in the process. He continues shooting those sh*t shots. Even if he makes 3-4 in a row, they're still bad shots. Even bad shooters will make a few in a row if they shoot it enough. A guy makes 3 in a row and starts thinking he's "hot." But, when it emboldens him to take MORE bad shots, it ends up hurting the team and hurting him, ultimately.

I don't know what the coaching staff is telling Seraphin, but they need to find a way to get him back in the paint.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
AFM
Veteran
Posts: 2,973
And1: 1,120
Joined: May 25, 2012

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#312 » by AFM » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:11 pm

Real talk, is Seraphin the worst passing C in the league?
Image
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 12,633
And1: 981
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#313 » by fishercob » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:11 pm

Nivek wrote:Cousins had a 2-3 minute stretch in the 1st half where he was just killing the Kings. Kept jacking up 18 footers that had not a prayer of going in. That guy has MONSTER talent, but he could be sooooooo much better if he'd stop taking those jack-assed shots and do a better job of valuing possessions.

fish -- BulletsForever's tweet and your comment reminds me of something Dean Oliver told me. Namely that when developing young players you want to emphasize and evaluate the process over the outcome. If you believe the player is talented (like, say, Beal), you don't worry much about him missing 3pt shots at first -- you want him focusing on making the right decisions about when to shoot. Over time, his talent is such that IF he's making the right decisions, the right results will come.

With Seraphin, they have a problem in the process. He continues shooting those sh*t shots. Even if he makes 3-4 in a row, they're still bad shots. Even bad shooters will make a few in a row if they shoot it enough. A guy makes 3 in a row and starts thinking he's "hot." But, when it emboldens him to take MORE bad shots, it ends up hurting the team and hurting him, ultimately.

I don't know what the coaching staff is telling Seraphin, but they need to find a way to get him back in the paint.


Reminds me of what I was screaming about Dray's development some 7 years ago. I wanted rules for him. You must:

(1) Rebound and run the floor hard -- always. If you can't you're coming out
(2) take only 2 types of shots -- (1) at the rim and (2) mid range jumpers off the pass. Nothing off the dribble, no ISO's. Just the Antoine Carr/PJ Brown jumpers
(3) no dribbling. If you put it on the floor more than once off a defensive rebound, or go behind your back in the half court, you;re coming out.

But instead, they were just like "hey look, this guy is 6'11 and can dribble behind his back and then make a fadeaway." And since they didn't curb all that silliness, he never got good at the important stuff, lost his way, and the fans turned on him.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 35,127
And1: 1,334
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Ft. Washington, MD/Mililani, HI

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#314 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:15 pm

TGW wrote:An average game from Cousins, CCJ? He had 6 turnovers, and Nene was making him look foolish at times.

His best offensive move is putting his head down and hoping you get called for a block--it's an ugly go-to move that works well on some nights, but is disastrous most nights. Quite frankly, I don't know why they put Seraphin on him, because Nene was doing just fine moving his feet and causing the charge. Brain fart by our coaching staff. Before Seraphin gave up the two bunnies in the paint, Cousins numbers were bad (he would have had as many turnovers as field goals). Anyway, I'm not going to dwell on it...i'd definitely rather have Wall, and I have zero interest in bringing that cancer here.


If you read very closely, I said over 9 January games it was Cousin's average numbers. After shooting .474 last night he's still averaging .503 in January. The rebounds and points were routine for him--he does that to other teams, not just Washington.

I did not even watch the game, TGW. I responded to the negativity in the game thread and thought I was being encouraging rather than pumping up Cousins. DeMarcus is likely bipolar and that is something I understand intimately--but no two people are alike. I totally agree, that he could be a team cancer and someone to avoid. OTOH, he's in his third season in the NBA, his team is better than Wall's, and he's a player who is coveted by many teams.

If you're not just going to react against Cousins you can look at the trade board or in both the Vesely and Seraphin threads and you will see I said I only want Cousins at the expense of trading any/all of Crawford, Booker, Singleton, and a future pick (not in this draft). That pick would need to be top-3 protected.

If you read really closely, I posted I don't think the Wizards should trade right now, with players doing better and winning games.

Now, where I will probably upset you, TGW, is to repeat what I've said since before they were drafted--I think Cousins is a better basketball player than Wall. Wall is a vastly superior athlete with a much higher ceiling, but Boogie Cousins, sloppy game, mood swings and all is a grinder. He actually only had a game score of 16--merely well above average against the Wizards.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/2013/

Yes, he has games where he actually commits more turnovers than made field goals! He's also had games of 18, 17, 12, 12 free throw attempts. He's had a 20-rebound game, and five times he's had 16 rebounds. DeMarcus is all of 22 years old. John Wall shot .789 FT last season. DeMarcus Cousins is also shooting .786 FTs this season. Both average(d) 6.1 FTAs. To point to turnovers or to call a guy a team cancer is just part of the story. Wall missed clutch FTs and he can't shoot from the perimeter, AND his knee might be a concern.

The bottom line as far as I'm concerned is Wall with Cousins would be darned good! Yes, there would be some concerns but that would be a pretty potent duo.
The Wizards Need 1: KD2DC, DMC2DC, KLOVE2DC, or LMA2DC
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 35,127
And1: 1,334
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Ft. Washington, MD/Mililani, HI

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#315 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:17 pm

AFM wrote:Real talk, is Seraphin the worst passing C in the league?


He just had 4 assists last game and he's done that in another game. Kevin can throw very nice bounce passes. It's not that he can't pass.

He's the worst passer because he prefers to shoot IMO.
The Wizards Need 1: KD2DC, DMC2DC, KLOVE2DC, or LMA2DC
User avatar
AFM
Veteran
Posts: 2,973
And1: 1,120
Joined: May 25, 2012

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#316 » by AFM » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:21 pm

He can also get nervous and confused and pass it right to a defender.
Image
jivelikenice
Veteran
Posts: 2,939
And1: 108
Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#317 » by jivelikenice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:26 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
AFM wrote:Real talk, is Seraphin the worst passing C in the league?


He just had 4 assists last game and he's done that in another game. Kevin can throw very nice bounce passes. It's not that he can't pass.

He's the worst passer because he prefers to shoot IMO.


I disagree. He gets nervous when pressure comes and throws it away. He's a terrible passer. What's disappointing about him is he showed great progress offensively, and it gave hope that he had the mentality and work either to be a good all around player. Instead he has put his focus on being an offensive player only. I'm not saying get rid of him because you just don't find young bigs with scoring ability very easily, but I'd trade him in the right deal or would tell Nene to go at him in practice when day.
jivelikenice
Veteran
Posts: 2,939
And1: 108
Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#318 » by jivelikenice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:31 pm

Ruzious wrote:
jivelikenice wrote:Where were Nene's touches at the end? Does Seraphin realize he doesn't have to shoot it every time?

Thing is - he's such a terrible passer, that it's probably best that he does shoot. Again, the real problem was the decisions to pass him the ball when he wasn't in position to shoot in rhythm. The first pass to him (which was from Nene) was good, because Seraphin was rolling towards the basket and got an easy layup. But the next 3 possessions, a guard just threw him the ball - forcing him to make a play, because you know he can't pass. He was put in a position - 3 straight times - to fail. And a coach simply can't let that happen down the stretch of a tight game, imo.


The decision to have him on the floor was the issue, but if he is on the floor and is open you have to make the pass. What he has to learn is just cause he's open from 15-18 ft doesn't mean he has to shoot it. He needs to evolve to the point where he can work for a better shot or make the pass. But if he's unguarded, you don't want your guards intentionally bypassing him as part of the offense.

Yesterday really exemplified the need for a go to scorer or at minimum a stretch 4.
jivelikenice
Veteran
Posts: 2,939
And1: 108
Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#319 » by jivelikenice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:36 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
DeMarcus Cousins is a great player. I said this before the draft. I thought he was the better player on Wall's Kentucky team. That is not a knock on Wall or Bledsoe, who are both young talents. Wall still is young and will improve. DeMarcus is settling in on greatness sooner but that doesn't mean Wall will not.

Instead of seeing this as a negative I see this as a POSITIVE. The Wizards could have won and they played pretty well. Move on to the next game.


CCJ, after watching Cousins yesterday, I want no part of him on this team. A team will never consistently win with a player that has that type of attitude on the court. The long Js, the turnovers, the flopping, that lack of control (he was luck not to get techs on multiple occassions)...he'd drive us crazy. He's a very good rebounder but I saw very little offensively that would make me think he could be a consistent go to scoring threat. His points came versus Seraphin...When Nene was on him he had nothing on offense mentally or physically.
jivelikenice
Veteran
Posts: 2,939
And1: 108
Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Re: Wizards @ Kings - 01/16/13 10:00PM EST 

Post#320 » by jivelikenice » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:42 pm

One lastthing on yesterday's game. Wittman's lineup decisions made no sense. Why did he put Temple, Ariza, Jan, and Seraphin on the floor with Wall? He had John on the floor with no shooters!!! Does that make any sense?

Return to Washington Wizards