ImageImageImageImageImage

Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST

Moderators: pineappleheadindc, LyricalRico, WizStorm, nate33, miller31time

User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 28,826
And1: 2,031
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#346 » by hands11 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:12 pm

MD's Finest wrote:Everytime I have seen us go against Griffin he seems to get the most ticky tack calls, and they seem to call allot of contact that he initiates in the post. The fake elbow and the booker fouls were bad but there was one where he got stuck under the bakset and jumped backward into Nene and flailed with no real shot attempt and got a call. With the poor rebounding, FT shooting and turnovers can't really say the refs cost us the game but they definitely made it a tougher climb.

The best part I think about the game was the fact the Wiz did not have a great game and still were right there, they just never let the Clips put them away and if not for a couple big plays from CP3 and some bad FT shooting really could have had this one down the stretch. I just like the whole vibe of the team right now, everyone seems into it and they are getting contributions from so many guys.


Right :roll: What was that ?

As for this logic that the refs don't cost teams games. I never understood that. I think people get confused by what coaches tell you and what players say in interviews and what is happening in reality.

Regardless of how many opportunities you miss, if you are in the game down by 1 with 2 minutes to go and the refs made several game deciding crap calls and they all go to one team over the other, then the refs cost you the game. Bad calls costing the game is the very reason they implemented instant reply. Of course the refs can cost you the game.

No one expects them to get it right all the time. Missed calls is part of the game. Usually they realize they missed a call and they do a make up call to equal things out. It looks more sloppy when they do this because now instead of one bad call you see two, but at least it equals out. But when they continually make no calls for your post players like Nene when he get contact and they always call it for the other teams player even when he literally just runs right through a defender that is standing his ground of he jumps backward into a defender that is standing their ground, then the ref do determine the outcome. If the refs calls give one team a +4 or 6 or 8 pts advantage and that is the difference between you being down 2 or up 4 down the stretch, then that is them costing you the game.

The game is supposed to be won or loss by the players on the court. You should not be able to notice an advantage to one team or the other by the refs.

In all fairness, when I was watching the first half, I thought they did a decent job and I was thinking to myself, oh, so this is what it is like to have the better refs call a game. Then the second half happen. Nevermind.
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686

Why so many poster have hotties as avatars. If anything screams can't get any, that would be it.
montestewart
General Manager
Posts: 8,237
And1: 1,108
Joined: Feb 25, 2009

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#347 » by montestewart » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:13 pm

dangermouse wrote:Seraphin has had 2 games in a row where he defended the post about as well as anyone. He didnt give an inch.

It's difficult to watch refs repeatedly pamper, defer to, and give benefit of doubt to Griffin, who seems to foul, travel, or otherwise violate the rules on almost every play. Such treatment may be the reason he's considered near "superstar," but he's good regardless, with quick moves and good body control for his size. Seraphin had a lot to do with Griffin's lousy game. I wish I saw that all the time, and I wish he had more awareness of the ball and his man after the shot. Zero offensive rebounds?
User avatar
closg00
RealGM
Posts: 15,521
And1: 319
Joined: Nov 21, 2004

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#348 » by closg00 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:23 pm

After Paul’s 17-foot jumper put the Clippers ahead, 91-86, with 32.4 seconds remaining, Wall complained to the referee that he was shoved. And reserve forward Trevor Booker had to be restrained from Griffin, whom Booker alleges hit him in the face with an elbow as the two tussled for the rebound.

“He should’ve got kicked out of the game for it,” Booker said of Griffin. “Hopefully they go review it after the game and I’m looking for a suspension at least. I mean, he elbowed me to my face.”


http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wi ... story.html

This^ pretty-much sums-up the officiating part of the game :evil:
Guys on a message board could do a better job managing the Wizards than Ernie Grunfeld.
User avatar
Chocolate City Jordanaire
RealGM
Posts: 33,641
And1: 1,061
Joined: Aug 05, 2001
Location: Ft. Washington, MD/Mililani, HI

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#349 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:40 pm

hands11 wrote:
MD's Finest wrote:Everytime I have seen us go against Griffin he seems to get the most ticky tack calls, and they seem to call allot of contact that he initiates in the post. The fake elbow and the booker fouls were bad but there was one where he got stuck under the bakset and jumped backward into Nene and flailed with no real shot attempt and got a call. With the poor rebounding, FT shooting and turnovers can't really say the refs cost us the game but they definitely made it a tougher climb.

The best part I think about the game was the fact the Wiz did not have a great game and still were right there, they just never let the Clips put them away and if not for a couple big plays from CP3 and some bad FT shooting really could have had this one down the stretch. I just like the whole vibe of the team right now, everyone seems into it and they are getting contributions from so many guys.


Right :roll: What was that ?

As for this logic that the refs don't cost teams games. I never understood that. I think people get confused by what coaches tell you and what players say in interviews and what is happening in reality.

Regardless of how many opportunities you miss, if you are in the game down by 1 with 2 minutes to go and the refs made several game deciding crap calls and they all go to one team over the other, then the refs cost you the game. Bad calls costing the game is the very reason they implemented instant reply. Of course the refs can cost you the game.

No one expects them to get it right all the time. Missed calls is part of the game. Usually they realize they missed a call and they do a make up call to equal things out. It looks more sloppy when they do this because now instead of one bad call you see two, but at least it equals out. But when they continually make no calls for your post players like Nene when he get contact and they always call it for the other teams player even when he literally just runs right through a defender that is standing his ground of he jumps backward into a defender that is standing their ground, then the ref do determine the outcome. If the refs calls give one team a +4 or 6 or 8 pts advantage and that is the difference between you being down 2 or up 4 down the stretch, then that is them costing you the game.

The game is supposed to be won or loss by the players on the court. You should not be able to notice an advantage to one team or the other by the refs.

In all fairness, when I was watching the first half, I thought they did a decent job and I was thinking to myself, oh, so this is what it is like to have the better refs call a game. Then the second half happen. Nevermind.


Great posts.

hands, the game seemed like it was going to be a great one until IMO the Wizards got too close. The score was 50-52 and the Wizards were thoroughly outplaying the Clippers. The refs took over at that point. That is when the plays MD's Finest mentioned started happening. The sequence of calls against Nene were accompanied by non-calls when the Clippers hit him as he shot. The refs called Nene worse than they do rookies they don't know or don't like. Joey Crawford and Erick Lewis put the game away more than the Clips did.

Instead of saying that refs don't cause outcomes I think it is possible that some do so on a regular basis. Do you remember Tim Donaghy?

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/14 ... bling-site
Convicted Felon, Former NBA Ref Tim Donaghy Lands Job With Gambling Site


I think Donaghy is honest compared to some refs who regularly call NBA games.
Klay Thompson is my new favorite NBA player.
"God is good," were his words after his record 37 point quarter.
His defense on James Harden was also impressive.
He also credits his father.#RESPECTFUL
User avatar
sfam
Analyst
Posts: 3,301
And1: 76
Joined: Aug 03, 2007

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#350 » by sfam » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:55 pm

I don't think I buy that refs are getting extra financial compensation to throw games, which is the implication being discussed. That's certainly possible, obviously. But I think its more their culture of giving extra benefit to home teams, and even more extra to perennial all-stars. When a team is tops in the league, it seems to me like their home team status happens everywhere. This, I think, is the problem. I would have a hard time believing that most refs wouldn't fess up to this.

Given that the Wizards are bottom of the barrel with no all-stars and practically everyone on the Clippers roster seems to have been an all-star at one point or another, its not exactly shocking that this happened.

Still, they really should have refrained at least in the last two minutes. That just takes the standard from merely unfair to flat out rigged.
User avatar
GhostsOfGil
General Manager
Posts: 8,462
And1: 888
Joined: Jul 06, 2006

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#351 » by GhostsOfGil » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:03 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:One of the biggest calls of the night was the carry called against Wall by Erick Lewis. (Thanks 80s for calling Lewis out.)

The Wizards were very much in the game and Lewis made a call after Del Negro screamed at him, well after the violation. No way that call gets made against Chris Paul.


Eh Idk... that was a pretty clear violation.

Proud of the way the team played tonight. That win would have been sweet, but the team is playing good defensive basketball. Even during the "golden years" I don't remember ever seeing the big 3 play this unselfishly.
mhd
Head Coach
Posts: 7,261
And1: 259
Joined: Mar 25, 2004

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#352 » by mhd » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:05 pm

Posted this in another thread, but others are noticing the Wizards improvement:

Zach Lowe with another awesome piece.


http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... the-throne


"It's sort of a "duh" thing, but the Wizards for the rest of the season will serve as a useful reminder that having good NBA players is sort of important. The Wiz have been a disaster offensively this season, spending almost the entirety of it ranked dead last in points per possession, with a mark rivaling Charlotte's historically bad figure from last year's messy lockout season. Their shot selection profile has been dreadful; the Wiz rank last in shots per game at the rim and "first" in long 2-point attempts.

But Washington's offense hasn't looked that bad, aesthetically, with the exception of some horrific crunch-time disorganization (shot clock violations, Jordan Crawford recklessness) here and there. They've moved the ball, assisting on a higher-than-average share of their baskets, and they've made an effort to run some almost artful NBA sets. Even Crawford, perhaps the league's premier ball-hog, upped his assist rate to a career-best level while spending significant time running the offense in John Wall's absence.

The team just had bad or untested NBA players, at almost every position. Things changed when Nenê returned and started playing more minutes; the Wiz have actually outscored opponents by about 5 points per 100 possessions with Nenê on the floor, a mark that would rank 6th overall — pretty remarkable for a 7-29 team. It's amazing how much better those semi-artful sets work with a big guy who can actually shoot, pass, and cut in smart ways — and how many more sets become possible for Randy Wittman to actually use.

Now Wall is back, too, and though the returns haven't been quite as robust, you can already see the Wall/Bradley Beal duo bearing fruit. Beal is 12-of-22 from the floor in his very limited minutes with Wall, and his 26-point explosion against Sacramento last night showed Beal has already learned one very important Wall-related lesson: Run to the corners when Wall pushes the ball, and spot-up for wide-open 3's. We even saw Washington run a Wall/Beal pick-and-roll, with Beal screening and fading to the left wing for open 3's.

Here's a prediction: I'll bet the Wizards end up outscoring the opposition for the season when both Wall and Nenê are on the court."
User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 28,826
And1: 2,031
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#353 » by hands11 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:13 pm

nate33 wrote:
MD's Finest wrote:The best part I think about the game was the fact the Wiz did not havea great game and still were right there, they just never let the Clips put them away and if not for a couple big plays from CP3 and some bad FT shooting really could have had this one down the stretch. I just like the whole vibe of the team right now, everyone seems into it and they are getting contributions from so many guys.

This.

Despite playing poorly offensively, despite lopsided officiating, and despite missing a boatload of free throws, the Wizards gave one of the best teams in the league all they could handle, on the road, on a back to back. If the Wizards can bring this effort and defensive intensity every night, they're going to easily win more than half of their remaining games.

I hate to say this, because it's dangerously close to giving EG credit, but I kinda like the way the team is constructed. Everybody on the roster defends. The bigs are all physical on defense. With Beal, Webster, Price and Cartier Martin on the perimeter, the guards actually shoot like professional basketball player should. Nene and Seraphin can score on the block and usually require a double team. Most of the players are unselfish and are willing to move the ball.



Which is what I have been saying for a while and you kept disagreeing with me.

This is why you had to wait until they were healthy so you could see how it all worked together. Now that they are, we will see how much they can get out of this group and how much players can raise their level of their play. Then they will decide who to move. Its going to take at least another 10 games to get a good feel for what they are.

I'm still not sold on the idea that they need to move Trevor A. He is a valuable player and if they play it right, they can resign him cheap. Same with Okafor. But if the right moves come along down the road and you can get value for pieces, then of course they should be considered. But I wouldn't focus on the vet pieces, not unless I was getting another solid vet piece in return.

I actually gained some respect for the level of talent that LAC has watching that first half. Its not an OKC team or a Miami team but they are good as a team. LAC has a lot of older vets that makes them really deep. Not great players but lots of good vets. Odom, Hill, Barnes, J Crawford, Ronny, Willie Green and Bulter. That is a ton of vet depth and that make them tough. Then they have a sprinkling of younger player like CP3, Blake, DeAndre Jordan, and Eric Bledsoe. And for all they had, the Wizards were still right in the game on the road on a back to back.

That screams ... not blow it up, but keep it going. The Wizards are a lot younger then the LAC. I say grow what you have and keep tweaking it.

What the Wizard most need right now is a DeAndre Jordan. Wall is their PG. Nene and Kevin are their BG. The Wiz have bigs but they are missing a tall, long, athletic, strong shot blocking big that can defend the post. Had they drafted Nikola instead of Ves they would be a looking good and they would have won that game last night despite the refs. Oh Nikola. What could have been.

I guess that player in the draft would be Nerlens Noel. Gortat would be a good fit. Sadly to get him you have to give up something and he cost 7M. We could have just drafted Nikola so we could have everything we have plus him and he could have only cost 3M.

Ves and Singleton plus whatever for Gortat
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686

Why so many poster have hotties as avatars. If anything screams can't get any, that would be it.
User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 28,826
And1: 2,031
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#354 » by hands11 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:15 pm

montestewart wrote:
dangermouse wrote:Seraphin has had 2 games in a row where he defended the post about as well as anyone. He didnt give an inch.

It's difficult to watch refs repeatedly pamper, defer to, and give benefit of doubt to Griffin, who seems to foul, travel, or otherwise violate the rules on almost every play. Such treatment may be the reason he's considered near "superstar," but he's good regardless, with quick moves and good body control for his size. Seraphin had a lot to do with Griffin's lousy game. I wish I saw that all the time, and I wish he had more awareness of the ball and his man after the shot. Zero offensive rebounds?


He has replace LeBron as the new Queen of Basketball.
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686

Why so many poster have hotties as avatars. If anything screams can't get any, that would be it.
User avatar
AFM
Veteran
Posts: 2,708
And1: 983
Joined: May 25, 2012

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#355 » by AFM » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:29 pm

It's not a conspiracy. Stars get more calls than marginal players. Clippers have more stars. That's all.
Image
User avatar
hands11
RealGM
Posts: 28,826
And1: 2,031
Joined: May 16, 2005
   

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#356 » by hands11 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:53 pm

sfam wrote:I don't think I buy that refs are getting extra financial compensation to throw games, which is the implication being discussed. That's certainly possible, obviously. But I think its more their culture of giving extra benefit to home teams, and even more extra to perennial all-stars. When a team is tops in the league, it seems to me like their home team status happens everywhere. This, I think, is the problem. I would have a hard time believing that most refs wouldn't fess up to this.

Given that the Wizards are bottom of the barrel with no all-stars and practically everyone on the Clippers roster seems to have been an all-star at one point or another, its not exactly shocking that this happened.

Still, they really should have refrained at least in the last two minutes. That just takes the standard from merely unfair to flat out rigged.


The league has a lot of money invested in Blake as a marketing piece. They can't allow him to look like a fool and get school by players they are not marketing. Nene and Okafor are good vets. But the NBA does not use them in their national marketing. They do use CP, Blake and they love Grant Hill.

The NBA know the Wizards are not making the playoff this year. They will take notice of their improved play and move them up on the peg board for future good treatment if they keep it up. The Wizards do have some pieces they can market in the future in Wall and Beal. They might even like Kevin S one day. He has a great smile and is always happy. And he is an international type. They like that. Big strong player who is really friendly with a great smile and smooth french accent. Oh yeah. They would like that.

But this year is about the LAC, OKC, Miami, etc. They are not going to let the Wiz mess up the LAC home court advantage.

Interesting when you think of the NBA that way. You not only have to be good, you need marketable players that they can use in commercials.
Step by Step - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1269473&start=45&p=36843686&view=show#p36843686

Why so many poster have hotties as avatars. If anything screams can't get any, that would be it.
jivelikenice
Veteran
Posts: 2,903
And1: 106
Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#357 » by jivelikenice » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:00 pm

No conspiracy IMO. The refs simply call what they anticipate versus what they see. Since they anticipate based on reputation, they repeatedly miss calls and favor the team with the better record. Doesn't help when you're playing a team known for flopping and complaining to the refs....
jivelikenice
Veteran
Posts: 2,903
And1: 106
Joined: Jul 15, 2005

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#358 » by jivelikenice » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:01 pm

Out of all the calls that went in Blake's favor, MAYBE one as a legit call....most were him dipping his should in for contact and flopping. The defenders where paying straight up and not leaning so those should not have been fouls.
User avatar
closg00
RealGM
Posts: 15,521
And1: 319
Joined: Nov 21, 2004

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#359 » by closg00 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:49 pm

jivelikenice wrote:Out of all the calls that went in Blake's favor, MAYBE one as a legit call....most were him dipping his should in for contact and flopping. The defenders where paying straight up and not leaning so those should not have been fouls.


I watched the 2nd half again today, OMG I didn't know Griffin was such a flopper, they need to send the tape to the NBA. Griffin is the new LeBron for me.
Guys on a message board could do a better job managing the Wizards than Ernie Grunfeld.
User avatar
TheKingOfVa360
Head Coach
Posts: 7,209
And1: 401
Joined: Jun 27, 2006
Location: Va DC Metro
         

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#360 » by TheKingOfVa360 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:41 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:This loss was better played than most wins they've had this season.

I love Bradley Beal's game.

I am a big Wall critic, but he looks different in a good way. John is very assertive and he's playing very well.


I agree a moral victory considering we had to beat Flop city and the refs
User avatar
mohammed10
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,852
And1: 145
Joined: May 26, 2007
Location: Playoffs? Playoffs? Yes, playoffs dammit
 

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#361 » by mohammed10 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:32 pm

TheKingOfVa360 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:This loss was better played than most wins they've had this season.

I love Bradley Beal's game.

I am a big Wall critic, but he looks different in a good way. John is very assertive and he's playing very well.


I agree a moral victory considering we had to beat Flop city and the refs


Agree - but we have had too many moral victories this season and not enough real ones...
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

'If' - by Rudyard Kipling
barelyawake
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,321
And1: 286
Joined: Aug 07, 2004

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#362 » by barelyawake » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:47 pm

Instead of bemoaning star calls, we need stars. Instead of believing that we could have played good basketball if only we drafted the right second round pick, we need stars. We should have learned this by now. We need to draft and trade with this in mind. The refs are not going to change.
User avatar
mohammed10
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,852
And1: 145
Joined: May 26, 2007
Location: Playoffs? Playoffs? Yes, playoffs dammit
 

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#363 » by mohammed10 » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:54 pm

barelyawake wrote:Instead of bemoaning star calls, we need stars. Instead of believing that we could have played good basketball if only we drafted the right second round pick, we need stars. We should have learned this by now. We need to draft and trade with this in mind. The refs are not going to change.


Hold all calls, we have a winner

HOF post nominne...

:bowdown:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

'If' - by Rudyard Kipling
dobrojim
RealGM
Posts: 11,543
And1: 293
Joined: Sep 16, 2004

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#364 » by dobrojim » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:38 pm

jivelikenice wrote:No conspiracy IMO. The refs simply call what they anticipate versus what they see. Since they anticipate based on reputation, they repeatedly miss calls and favor the team with the better record. Doesn't help when you're playing a team known for flopping and complaining to the refs....



exactly

anticipation bias
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity
User avatar
PeTBuLL
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,344
And1: 1
Joined: Aug 29, 2005

Re: Wizards @ Clippers - 1/19/13 - 10:30 PM EST 

Post#365 » by PeTBuLL » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:04 pm

Dear Lord!

Image

Where´s nba FO to get Blake his suspension.
Nenê, brazilan tomahawk!

Return to Washington Wizards


Users browsing this forum: No registered users