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Grade The Offseason

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

How Would You Grade the Wizards Offseason?

A
4
8%
B
17
35%
C
17
35%
D
5
10%
F
3
6%
I
3
6%
 
Total votes: 49

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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#41 » by TGW » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:01 pm

Oh I will Hands, if it comes down to it. People like me managed to get that loser Andray Blatche off the team. Might as well go for the head honcho as well. I have no attachment to anyone on this team.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#42 » by stevemcqueen1 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:15 pm

TGW wrote:
stevemcqueen1 wrote:This seems like moving the goal posts. Why only a big man, and only one under 26? How many teams have such a player?

Shouldn't having three future All Star caliber players at any position be enough? That's what I believe we've got in Wall, Beal, and Porter.

Not getting DeJuan Blair certainly doesn't outweigh getting Porter, or even keeping Webster for that matter.

I understand that we've been bad for a while, but the pity party and relentless negativity from Wizards fans is flat out tiresome.


No, I don't think Beal, Wall, and Porter are enough because I don't think they're good enough to carry a team to a championship.

If you're going to rely on a bunch of guards and wing players to win a title, they have to be special players. Freaks. The best at their positions. I don't see our guys being that. I don't see Porter all of sudden developing Durant like abilities, or Beal becoming D. Wade in his prime, or Wall becoming Magic Johnson overnight.

You may be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not, and unless they get their sh*t straight when it comes to building a championship roster, I will continue to crap on this front office.


You can play it up like you're not whining, you're just unwilling to accept mediocrity. But really you're whining.

Its my opinion vs. yours. I think you're underestimating Wall, Beal, and Porter. I think each are going to be among the best at their position once they develop and the three of them will form the foundation of a contender. I think this is the most talent the team has had in decades.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#43 » by FAH1223 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:31 pm

It's a C.

The draft was good. I know some of us wanted Noel cause he was there, but we have loads of depth at the wings now. It's funny because two years ago, we had absolutely nothing on the wings to speak of.

The real failure of this offseason was using the BAE on Maynor. He definitely could have been had for the minimum but having Nate Robinson for the BAE would have been a huge success.

And the choice for a stretch four is meh.

Webster's contract is meh, Wall's contract is an overpay but the kid will probably keep improving and reach all star status (superstar? don't know).
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#44 » by nate33 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:50 pm

TGW wrote:No, I don't think Beal, Wall, and Porter are enough because I don't think they're good enough to carry a team to a championship.

If you're going to rely on a bunch of guards and wing players to win a title, they have to be special players. Freaks. The best at their positions. I don't see our guys being that. I don't see Porter all of sudden developing Durant like abilities, or Beal becoming D. Wade in his prime, or Wall becoming Magic Johnson overnight.

You may be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not, and unless they get their sh*t straight when it comes to building a championship roster, I will continue to crap on this front office.

I agree that Wall, Beal and Porter isn't enough. Wall might conceivably become and elite, best-in-the-league player at his position, but neither Beal nor Porter project to be that good. I think Beal projects to impact the game in a manner similar to an Allan Houston or Rip Hamilton. A good player to be sure, and a player likely to make some All Star games; but a tier below the uber guards like Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Harden, Ray Allen etc. A team with the next Jason Kidd and the next Rip Hamilton isn't going to win a title without an All Star caliber big man on the roster. At best, maybe it's an Isiah Thomas/Joe Dumars or Billups/Hamilton type of dynamic where if everything breaks right, and we add a bunch of talent and depth in the front court (even if nobody is elite), we could compete for a title.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#45 » by fishercob » Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:35 pm

nate33 wrote:
TGW wrote:No, I don't think Beal, Wall, and Porter are enough because I don't think they're good enough to carry a team to a championship.

If you're going to rely on a bunch of guards and wing players to win a title, they have to be special players. Freaks. The best at their positions. I don't see our guys being that. I don't see Porter all of sudden developing Durant like abilities, or Beal becoming D. Wade in his prime, or Wall becoming Magic Johnson overnight.

You may be happy with mediocrity, but I'm not, and unless they get their sh*t straight when it comes to building a championship roster, I will continue to crap on this front office.

I agree that Wall, Beal and Porter isn't enough. Wall might conceivably become and elite, best-in-the-league player at his position, but neither Beal nor Porter project to be that good. I think Beal projects to impact the game in a manner similar to an Allan Houston or Rip Hamilton. A good player to be sure, and a player likely to make some All Star games; but a tier below the uber guards like Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Harden, Ray Allen etc. A team with the next Jason Kidd and the next Rip Hamilton isn't going to win a title without an All Star caliber big man on the roster. At best, maybe it's an Isiah Thomas/Joe Dumars or Billups/Hamilton type of dynamic where if everything breaks right, and we add a bunch of talent and depth in the front court (even if nobody is elite), we could compete for a title.



I think you continue to underrate Beal. I think after his rookie season in which he was the league's second youngest player, he can clearly be seen as the league's second best young shooting guard behind Harden. Kobe, Manu, and Wade will be completely done by the time Beal reaches his prime. Beal has All-NBA potential. (As an aside, a friend saw him at a season ticket holder even a few weeks ago and said he looks huge -- remember how much muscle his frame is set up to add).

A Wall/Beal combo could have a Gary Payton/Mitch Richmond -- in their primes -- type of impact. That's not to say that we don't need more very good players to compete for titles. We clearly do. But I think Wall and Beal's upside are such that they could be the best two players on a legit contender.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#46 » by Ruzious » Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:50 pm

The problem with making these comparisons to great or almost great players is - the Wiz kids haven't done it. Until they actually have all-star caliber SEASONS, they're just not that good. But it is good to hear that Beal has added some muscle.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#47 » by No-Man » Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:58 pm

I'll go with a B, and I'm not a Wizards fan, just a guy that like some of your players and the franchise.

I didn't like the Draft at all, Rice Jr. is okay, but picking Porter with Webster, Ariza, Singleton and even Vesely, with Noel available was stupid, even if Porter is the local boy, or whatever.

Webster re-signing was solid, Maynor too, and Harrington is good pick-up, I don't understand the lack of moves regarding the forward crop, you just have too many.

With Nene, Okafor, Seraphin, Booker, Harrington, you could wait for Noel and put him as a starter next season if Okafor leaves in the FA.
But nope, you go with the safe pick, as always.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#48 » by Nivek » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:20 pm

Realistically speaking, Vesely could be the next Jim Petersen or Clifford Rozier. If he improves.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#49 » by Dat2U » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:26 pm

One problem I have that I really can't reconcile is drafting Porter AND resigning Webster. Considering the roster and potential holes, I just felt like it was a very poor allocation of resources. I think alone, either move would have been defensible. Combined, it makes little sense long term. Porter right now is our 3rd string SF. A bit disheartening for a guy that was just the 3rd pick and supposedly one of the most NBA ready players in the draft.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#50 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:34 pm

Nivek wrote:Realistically speaking, Vesely could be the next Jim Petersen or Clifford Rozier. If he improves.


I was at a game many years back, sitting very close to the floor, when Clifford Rozier threw a punch that connected to the face of Vitaly Potapenko. It was a devastating punch. The guy never panned out as a player, but Clifford Rozier sure could fight well. I was very impressed.

Vesely probably won't ever punch like Rozier, Nivek. :)

As far as Jim Peterson goes, I very vaguely remember him playing for the Rockets. I remember nothing about his game. What I see in wiki makes Peterson seem like he was actually a pretty decent player:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Petersen

Petersen was selected by the Houston Rockets in the third round (51st overall) of the 1984 NBA Draft, alongside Akeem Olajuwon. In the following four seasons, he played with the Texas club, backing up both Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson, who were known as the Twin Towers. In reference to his very light complexion, Petersen was affectionately known as "The Ivory Tower" during his time in Houston.[2] Petersen played in 20 post-season games (averaging six points and six rebounds) as the team reached the NBA Finals, losing 2–4 to the Boston Celtics.

In the 1986–87 season, as Sampson began to struggle with injuries, Petersen achieved career-best averages of 11 points and seven rebounds, playing in all 82 games and starting in 56. He retired in 1992 at the age of 30, after one season with the Sacramento Kings and three with the Golden State Warriors, with totals of 491 games and 3,397 points.


The Ivory Tower. :D Vesely's already got a decent nickname, "Honza".
Bye bye Beal.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#51 » by dobrojim » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:36 pm

I can somewhat understand that criticism. If I were going to defend it I might
say that if we want to get anywhere in the playoffs, we will need deep depth (tm-Earl Weaver)
at the 3 or 3/4 since as you've pointed out, both LBJ and Melo both slide up to the 4.
Having as many guys, hopefully with some quality as well (remains to be seen), that
can match up could be of great value.

I was down with Porter. I hope he works out. It may turn out that one of several players
ends up in hindsight as a 'would have been better' choice. Zeller, Noel, Olynyk. We'll see.
I think the Webster re-signing allows for less pressure on Porter. We hopefully won't be
forced to give him minutes simply because he was a 3rd overall. If he earns it, great.
If he struggles some, we're not immediately screwed. We have alternatives. Long term,
a 3rd overall is a not a pick you can typically afford to waste. That said, MEM wasted
a 2nd overall on Thabeet, coulda had Harden, but still made the WCFs 2 years later.

As for grading the offseason, Capt Obvious says what we're really doing, as usual, is
bloviating (myself included) about how we feel about this or that move. The actual grade
for the offseason will come as the upcoming season comes to pass. How many wins?
How much improvement? One might as well merge this thread with the Wins prediction
thread. It amounts to the same thing.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#52 » by dobrojim » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:39 pm

The Ivory Tower. :D Vesely's already got a decent nickname, "Honza".


if we want to be nice to Ves, I like the nickname the Czech Bounce. Not saying
we have to be nice to him though. Your conscious will be your guide.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#53 » by dckingsfan » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:41 pm

dobrojim wrote:I can somewhat understand that criticism. If I were going to defend it I might
say that if we want to get anywhere in the playoffs, we will need deep depth (tm-Earl Weaver)
at the 3 or 3/4 since as you've pointed out, both LBJ and Melo both slide up to the 4.
Having as many guys, hopefully with some quality as well (remains to be seen), that
can match up could be of great value.

I was down with Porter. I hope he works out. It may turn out that one of several players
ends up in hindsight as a 'would have been better' choice. Zeller, Noel, Olynyk. We'll see.
I think the Webster re-signing allows for less pressure on Porter. We hopefully won't be
forced to give him minutes simply because he was a 3rd overall. If he earns it, great.
If he struggles some, we're not immediately screwed. We have alternatives. Long term,
a 3rd overall is a not a pick you can typically afford to waste. That said, MEM wasted
a 2nd overall on Thabeet, coulda had Harden, but still made the WCFs 2 years later.

As for grading the offseason, Capt Obvious says what we're really doing, as usual, is
bloviating (myself included) about how we feel about this or that move. The actual grade
for the offseason will come as the upcoming season comes to pass. How many wins?
How much improvement? One might as well merge this thread with the Wins prediction
thread. It amounts to the same thing.


Ah, nice idea... add the grade to:
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1261045
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#54 » by closg00 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:36 pm

SI gives us a B- with many of criticisms/concerns that have been expressed here .
http://nba.si.com/2013/08/15/nba-washin ... son-grade/
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#55 » by closg00 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:29 pm

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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#56 » by thinker07 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:19 am

It seems sometimes like this board lives in an alternate reality. People make tons of statements that simply don't seem to take into account how things actually work. And they often are counter to what national sportswriters believe and what other NBA team officials tell national sportswriters.

Take the Maynor signing, for example. Most people on this board believe he is worse or at least no better than AJ Price. AJ Price who seems headed to play in Europe because NO NBA team seems willing to offer him a guaranteed minimum salary contract. Steve Kyler, the head of HOOPSWORLD and basketball coverage for the USA Today and by all accounts a very hooked in guy, said he thought Maynor was a significant upgrade over Price. Jason Reid of the Washington Post said at least two NBA executives from other teams told him that Maynor was much better than Price. If you follow the Trailblazers, you would know that they really liked Maynor and played him quite a bit along side with Lillard and that worked very well. But his Qualifying Offer was something like $3.5 million and they didn't like him THAT much. Then they drafted CJ McCollum and Allan Crabbe. Later in the offseason they signed Mo Williams. So the fact that Portland let him go isn't really much of an indictment against his talent. Nor was the fact that OKC traded him - he had recovered slowly from ACL surgery and Reggie Jackson was beginning to emerge.

Most people on this board also think that we could have signed Maynor for the minimum or that we didn't have to offer him an option in his second year and we didn't have to hurry. Again - based on what? We actually don't know what other teams were interested in him or what they might have offered. But we could have just signed Collison or Robinson!!!! Says who? My theory is that the Wiz believed that Maynor was a better fit, but maybe they offered Robinson the BAE and he declined thinking he was going to get offered more. The fact that he ultimately signed for the BAE later doesn't mean that he would have accepted it earlier. Or that he would have accepted it from the Wiz.

I get that message board are a place for speculation. But people speculate and state it as fact. "Noel was cleared medically." How could we possibly know whether the Wiz or any other team passed on him for medical reasons? "Webster could have been signed for less." How on earth could anyone on this board know that? "EG didn't have to offer the partial guarantee in the 4th year." Again, how would anyone know that?
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#57 » by DCZards » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:57 am

^^^^^ You better duck, thinker. Some bombs are headed your way. You're absolutely right that Maynor is probably seen by the Zards FO as the better fit for the team they are building...better than Robinson and some of the other names that were tossed around here. And I think the Zards are right. Oops...I better duck too.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#58 » by jivelikenice » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:40 am

I'm between a B- and a B. The Maynor signing was a mistake. There was no need to rush into adding hm and he designed address the combo guard need. Secondly I like the Otto pick but I assumed they'd turn around and deal Ariza. If Otto is gong to be buried on the bench, then we could have taken a shot on one of the draft bigs (I'd have gone Len over Noels)....I hope I'm wrong about Otto's pt and hope he can carve out a role this year.

I loved the Wall deal, the Glen Rice pick and the Harrington signing. I'd like the Martell signing more if again, we didnt have three guys and a lot of $ tied into one spot.....
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#59 » by hands11 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:48 pm

thinker07 wrote:It seems sometimes like this board lives in an alternate reality. People make tons of statements that simply don't seem to take into account how things actually work. And they often are counter to what national sportswriters believe and what other NBA team officials tell national sportswriters.

Take the Maynor signing, for example. Most people on this board believe he is worse or at least no better than AJ Price. AJ Price who seems headed to play in Europe because NO NBA team seems willing to offer him a guaranteed minimum salary contract. Steve Kyler, the head of HOOPSWORLD and basketball coverage for the USA Today and by all accounts a very hooked in guy, said he thought Maynor was a significant upgrade over Price. Jason Reid of the Washington Post said at least two NBA executives from other teams told him that Maynor was much better than Price. If you follow the Trailblazers, you would know that they really liked Maynor and played him quite a bit along side with Lillard and that worked very well. But his Qualifying Offer was something like $3.5 million and they didn't like him THAT much. Then they drafted CJ McCollum and Allan Crabbe. Later in the offseason they signed Mo Williams. So the fact that Portland let him go isn't really much of an indictment against his talent. Nor was the fact that OKC traded him - he had recovered slowly from ACL surgery and Reggie Jackson was beginning to emerge.

Most people on this board also think that we could have signed Maynor for the minimum or that we didn't have to offer him an option in his second year and we didn't have to hurry. Again - based on what? We actually don't know what other teams were interested in him or what they might have offered. But we could have just signed Collison or Robinson!!!! Says who? My theory is that the Wiz believed that Maynor was a better fit, but maybe they offered Robinson the BAE and he declined thinking he was going to get offered more. The fact that he ultimately signed for the BAE later doesn't mean that he would have accepted it earlier. Or that he would have accepted it from the Wiz.

I get that message board are a place for speculation. But people speculate and state it as fact. "Noel was cleared medically." How could we possibly know whether the Wiz or any other team passed on him for medical reasons? "Webster could have been signed for less." How on earth could anyone on this board know that? "EG didn't have to offer the partial guarantee in the 4th year." Again, how would anyone know that?


Agree and I have posted similar for years. Much gets ignored. There were even posts regarding Webster getting other offers, so them paying what they did wasn't because they suck but it was because that's what the market dictated. Signing Web last year was a win. Working the relationship so he wanted to stay was a win and resigning him was a win. But people speculate we should have singed him for two years and focus on that. But no one knows that was even possible.

People need to separate what happened before Ted. This is not giving Gil max or overpaying AJ. This team doesn't bring back players to early and then play them 45 min right away. They don't ignore defense. Its a different front office because it has a different owner who does things very different.

Regarding Noel, there were reports out of PHX that the knee scared them off. They pick Len instead. So they picked another center. PHX is know to have the best medical staff. You be the judge. Noel was the consensus #1 forever. He went #6. Maybe everyone ends up being wrong. Maybe not.

So yeah. Tons gets ignored here so people can grind their ax about how we could have had this player or that player in FA and why the front office sucks. Just fits their narrative.

Second thing that regularly happens is people micro time slice things. X move happened and look at our record. We suck. We have sucked and we will continue to suck. Planning doesn't work like that. One good way to frame what happened here is restoring a house with mold and water damage but you need to live in the house while you are doing it. First you need to tear parts of it down. Need to get the electricity running first so you can run tools to fix other things. Wall. Then you need some pluming. Nene & Okafor. You need kitchen next probably. Beal.

We sucked for a few years by design so judging every move as suck because the record sucked doesn't compute. We are not title contenders this year because it doesn't work like that. You don't go from dysfunctional 20 years of crap under Abe to title team in 3 years. Mediocre come next. But the planned complaints are already dialed in saying Mediocre is more failure. Well no. Being Mediocre would be success at this stage of a rebuild. What would be failure would be getting stuck there. Well, we should know the answer to that is about the 2015/2016 season.

Once Ted bought the team and decided to flush the roster and rebuild via the draft, soonest they would even consider their title window would be 5 or probably more like 6 years out. That's the way a draft based rebuild goes. And they choose that path in part because they had 20M/yr until 2013 tied up in Gils contract that needed moved and because 20 years of suck wasn't a prime environment to attract UFA's. They even flushed Dray with cost them a lot. I felt it was worth the risk of keeping him but they were committed to a plan and Dray was seen as rooting food that stunk up the place for the worker doing the rebuild.

Have they done a perfect job drafting. Of course not. The most legit complains come in this areas. We do know who we could have picked and didn't. Those facts are easier to see. But even there, people forget their wrong picks or that they had several picks. Well, those bad picks in the real NBA hang around your neck until they pan out or get proven a bust. Of course they are going to take the Ves option. He was a top Euro prospect. The refrigerator that showed up with the kitchen was getting done and it got all dusty and took a few dents. Now they have to clean it up and see if it can run well.

But in 3 years since Ted, they have turned it around. FAs are looking at them as a viable place to land. And after a season that should lead to the playoffs, its only going to get better. Right now they can land a Webster or Al Harrington. I expect after this year, they will be viable for 80-95-100% of the league. That puts you back in the game. You will no longer be building with two hands tied behind your back.

Then we can really see how our front office operates when they are on a more equal playing field. Let see who they land then. Should they bring in a new project manager to finish out the build ? Maybe. It is a different type of job from demo and stage 1-3 rebuilding. Do this front office have the skills for stage 4 and 5. Honestly, I have no idea. That's up to Ted to decide. He does have more options now.

They will have Wall and Beal and that's what really matters. As long as they have lots of cap in 2016, they will be right in the game. Build what you can along the way and get them playoff experience. And if its not working toward to title, then you can flush it all or in part and have the street cred to go get your top name 3rd piece .. KD, LeBron, whoever. With those 3, you can build in the Miami/Boston model. FA will come for nothing to title chase.

People that say they suck and the Wall and Beal pick up were no brainers forget, after Gil, they made moves to get that #1 pick. And several here would have picked other then Wall. And for Beal, they tanked to get that pick and lots here would have picked MKG instead. And since those two are the core of this team for the next 6 plus years, the front office actually does get credit for getting them. Actually, they get a lot of credit for it.

So is the team set up right now with what it currently has to make a title run. No. It isn't. But no one with sound reasoning expected that after 3 years. Are they stuck. Nope. Not by a long shot. Will they be big players in FA next year. I wouldn't count on it. More likely they add via trades. For those that love thinking FA, I would keep my eyes on the 2016 cap space. Not 2014.
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Re: Grade The Offseason 

Post#60 » by hands11 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:58 pm

DCZards wrote:^^^^^ You better duck, thinker. Some bombs are headed your way. You're absolutely right that Maynor is probably seen by the Zards FO as the better fit for the team they are building...better than Robinson and some of the other names that were tossed around here. And I think the Zards are right. Oops...I better duck too.


Right.

They wanted a floor general to help make the 2nd line players more productive. And they wanted someone who had playoff experience. Another mentor type. A good locker room guy.

Review what was available. Was he the best match for those things ? Probably so. For me, I wanted Beno. Not sure if they could have landed him or if he fits that bill though. I also wanted CJM or Burke or Zeller. Even Len would have been fine. So we will see. If all 4 end up better players, then I think it clear it was a busted pick.

Makes sense to me they didn't keep Price. I yelled for a true court general back up PG lots last year.

Am I doing back flips over Manyor. Not yet I'm not. But not crying over it either. Its was an ok move. So was Al. Both seem to be about C+ type moves that could become B or B+ moves if they pan out.

Price was probably about a C- move that stayed a C- move, so progress was made there.
Al replaces C Martin in shooting and Colins as a vet. I think that's clearly an upgrade as well.

Keeping Webster was clearly a very solid move. An A and weight more heavily then Maynor and Al because Al is a one year and Mayor is 2 years. Webster is a much more important piece and signed longer.

The big addition was Otto. Lots will be determined by what he does or what they can get for him. That more then anything will dictate the success of this off season. And as of now, we have almost zero data on how that is going.

So everything except for an Otto grade has them at about an A-

But the Otto's grade should be weighted similar to or higher then Webster.

If Otto ends up a D, that pulls the off season down to C-
If Otto is a C, then something like a B-
If Otto is B, then a B+
If Otto is an A, then they get an A

Edit to add.
Glen Rice Jr aka NY 2.0 I think the young man if going to contribute pretty early. He is the UTR addition of the off season and could greatly effect the off season grade.

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